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A quick review of Mac's job performance

sackman said:
If you're Kliff Kingsbury and you pull a stunt like that, you likely lose Brown to a fit of laughter.
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Most kids growing up played on a team at one point where the coach's kid was on the team, it's not always a great experience and if a coach can appeal to that concern to a 17 year old, he will. It happens, but it's pretty uncommon at this level.

I know WR is different from QB, but we're now the school that following the Hawkins disaster had a new coach who put his kid on scholarship (when no other P5 school would), accepted his commitment last year in the 11th hour, and hired the unqualified son of a prominent player in coaching searches. This all could mean nothing to most recruits, but why take those risks with a program needing all the advantages we can get? It's a bad look.
 
SINKRATZ said:
Most kids growing up played on a team at one point where the coach's kid was on the team, it's not always a great experience and if a coach can appeal to that concern to a 17 year old, he will. It happens, but it's pretty uncommon at this level.

I know WR is different from QB, but we're now the school that following the Hawkins disaster had a new coach who put his kid on scholarship (when no other P5 school would), accepted his commitment last year in the 11th hour, and hired the unqualified son of a prominent player in coaching searches. This all could mean nothing to most recruits, but why take those risks with a program needing all the advantages we can get? It's a bad look.
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It's not that important, that's all. Except to you and maybe a few others. All we are saying is you are worrying too much about it.
 
SINKRATZ said:
With the big jump our offense made this season, I would imagine our "best recruiter" who also happens to coach WRs would have been pretty successful recruiting WRs (a position of need) this cycle. We brought in Justin Jan and...that's it.

Definitely could be a coincidence, but let's not pretend that just because the coaches say all the right things (like Helfrich being given full authority over who starts), and players making nice (leapfrog anyone?) that this can't affect us in other ways.
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How long is your wing span?
 
For perspective, Cody was last a starter here 6 years and 2 coaches ago. No 17 or 18 year old recruit is going to think of that at all. That's a point in all of this that's only relevant to the mind of an adult CU fan.
 
DBT said:
Your post almost made me go ballistic. Fortunately, I deleted it before posting. His kid was rated as a top 10 recruit in state. He is a good player. He was one of the fastest kids in state. From all accounts I've heard, which aren't many, he will be a solid contributor. Get over the Hawkins debacle. This isn't close to the same thing.
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It is very much the same thing. WR and QB are both offensive skills positions that involves touching the ball. WRs are competitive by nature and want as many touches as they can get. The egos of top WRs are tied to how many times they are targeted by the QB. Having a coach's son at WR is much more touchy than other non ball handling roles on the OL, DL, or special teams.

We can only hope Jay shares similar leadership traits as Cody Hawkins. Cody was a good teammate and a tough competitor. Cody won the Buffalo Heart award for a reason. It was well deserved. He set various records through his understanding of the offense and his chemistry with WR Scotty McKnight and other targets. Cody's personality and behavior wasn't an concern, beyond one benign leap-frog incident and a little clique with buddy Scotty. But there are many more positive memories of Cody signing autographs with fans and nailing press conferences with grace and style. The critics were more concerned with Cody's lack of height resulting in blocked passes and picks. He also had statue like mobility which removed him as a running threat. Despite his setbacks, many were convinced that he was the best QB on the team when he took over as a RS freshman. Cody is a great Buff who was in a nasty situation. Sins of the father, ect.

Will WR Jay be as gifted as QB Cody in the locker room? Who knows. But it IS a risk. And the risk didn't pan out very well for Cody and for when Coach Mac was playing for his dad at Vandy. His dad got axed and MM finished his career at GA Tech. So it wasn't exactly smooth.

Jay MacIntyre may work out. But let's not pretend there aren't potential pitfalls, even if Jay proves himself to be of an extraordinary individual.
 
Skidmark said:
It is very much the same thing. WR and QB are both offensive skills positions that involves touching the ball. WRs are competitive by nature and want as many touches as they can get. The egos of top WRs are tied to how many times they are targeted by the QB. Having a coach's son at WR is much more touchy than other non ball handling roles on the OL, DL, or special teams.

We can only hope Jay shares similar leadership traits as Cody Hawkins. Cody was a good teammate and a tough competitor. Cody won the Buffalo Heart award for a reason. It was well deserved. He set various records through his understanding of the offense and his chemistry with WR Scotty McKnight and other targets. Cody's personality and behavior wasn't an concern, beyond one benign leap-frog incident and a little clique with buddy Scotty. But there are many more positive memories of Cody signing autographs with fans and nailing press conferences with grace and style. The critics were more concerned with Cody's lack of height resulting in blocked passes and picks. He also had statue like mobility which removed him as a running threat. Despite his setbacks, many were convinced that he was the best QB on the team when he took over as a RS freshman. Cody is a great Buff who was in a nasty situation. Sins of the father, ect.

Will WR Jay be as gifted as QB Cody in the locker room? Who knows. But it IS a risk. And the risk didn't pan out very well for Cody and for when Coach Mac was playing for his dad at Vandy. His dad got axed and MM finished his career at GA Tech. So it wasn't exactly smooth.

Jay MacIntyre may work out. But let's not pretend there aren't potential pitfalls, even if Jay proves himself to be of an extraordinary individual.
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While this was correct for a while, many were turned to few once Hansen came onto the scene. Dan Hawkins' handling of Hansen's RS and basically alternating QBs is a huge reason fans started getting upset and much of their disdain was directed at Cody. This, of course, was extremely unfair to Cody and the skepticism of Cody playing for CU was brought full circle because of his dad.
 
buffedup said:
What is your point? You make this long winded post basically saying that MM sucks, but don't really give a solution. What should fans be doing? Screaming at RG to fire MM immediately because he hasn't already elevated Colorado to Oregon status?
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Well yes we could fire him. Wouldn't do it now but there needs to be major tangible improvement next year (which doesn't mean going 4-9). With the concerted effort now being made by the university to aid the program plus the huge sums of money now being invested in the program, anyone who thinks RG is going to put up with a third straight bad year is kidding themselves. And me being mad because we're not Oregon yet? Hardly, I'm made because were not even close to being freaking Oregon State.

sackman said:
J-R-K is great at saying things suck, but not so great at saying what his expectations were to begin with. Did he expect a bowl game in year 2? If so, is that a reasonable expectation?
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I didn't have any preconceived expectations. But I can say that my expectations were most definitely not having a coach who is 1-23 in their career against BCS school, who just completed the first season in school history without winning a conference game, and whose recruiting classes are ranked last in the conference every year including being able to count the number of players with BCS offers on one hand. Does doing better then this really qualify as having unrealistic expectations?

There also seems to be a perception that Macintyre was the best coach we could have gotten so we should just be happy. Well considering we just signed a coordinator whose more accomplished then him I don't think it's unrealistic to think we could have gotten a head coach whose better then him. Where there's a will there's a way.
 
J-R-K said:
Well yes we could fire him. Wouldn't do it now but there needs to be major tangible improvement next year (which doesn't mean going 4-9). With the concerted effort now being made by the university to aid the program plus the huge sums of money now being invested in the program, anyone who thinks RG is going to put up with a third straight bad year is kidding themselves. And me being mad because we're not Oregon yet? Hardly, I'm made because were not even close to being freaking Oregon State.



I didn't have any preconceived expectations. But I can say that my expectations were most definitely not having a coach who is 1-23 in their career against BCS school, who just completed the first season in school history without winning a conference game, and whose recruiting classes are ranked last in the conference every year including being able to count the number of players with BCS offers on one hand. Does doing better then this really qualify as having unrealistic expectations?

There also seems to be a perception that Macintyre was the best coach we could have gotten so we should just be happy. Well considering we just signed a coordinator whose more accomplished then him I don't think it's unrealistic to think we could have gotten a head coach whose better then him. Where there's a will there's a way.
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Thanks for sobering me up, got drunk on the Koolaid aid there for a bit...
 
FLounder said:
Dont worry he will. Then guys like JRK can go back to where they come from.
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I think he will win more games, my point was that this season will be different.

His first two he had a basketball team that took some of the attention away from the football season because they were good and entertaining. This season HCMM won't have that good will on his side.
 
Until we start to win games it can't be called successful but it is certainly easy to see significant progress.

We have seen signs of a significant cultural change. We now look and act like a major college football program. We aren't recruiting guys who will win the PAC 12 but at least we are now stocking the roster with guys who can and will play at a PAC 12 level. This can be the foundation for future teams that do compete for titles, something we didn't have before.

We are playing above our current talent level. A comment was made earlier in the thread that on a pure talent basis we should have been blown out in virtually every PAC 12 game + CSU. The fact that we were in a position to win games is a major step up.

The complaints about JayMac are simply nitpicking until proven otherwise. Yes we had a terrible experience with Hawk and Lil' Hawk. So far I haven't seen indications that M2 is another Hawkins.

There is also a huge difference between a WR and a QB. QBs by the nature of the position are seen and perceived as leaders and representatives of the team. They are the guy who gets the ball every down for at least moments, who call the plays, who face the media after the game and in media sessions. JayMac is in a position where if he fails he's another guy on the depth chart and if he succeeds somebody else is still the QB and JayMac is just a nice story for the broadcast like a punter who kicks with both feet.

A couple observations.

1. Even if M2 fails to get the wins and is shown the door this program will be much more solid than the one he took over, or that Embree took over. We are much closer to winning than we were, still not good but at least not embarrassing.

2. There are comments about 95% of decent college coaches could have matched M2s results but as was mentioned before that last two coaches didn't. Embree was clearly in over his head from day one but Hawkins was considered the hot prospect at the time, had we not hired him somebody else in a major conference would have.

3. Which brings me to the question. If we hadn't hired M2 who were we going to get to come in that was better? Butch Jones dropped us like a hot potato, most of the other top candidates wouldn't look at us to start with.

4. Dump M2 at this point with less than what most coaches consider a fair shot and tell me what other guaranteed win lock coaches are lining up to take the job?

5. M2 has also begun to re-establish some recruiting connections that were broken or rotted away. These may not have gotten us great talent so far but certainly have potential for the future. How far back does it set CU if we panic and dump this staff at this point in the game?

A lot of us have been waiting a lot of years for something decent to happen in CU football. It may be hard to wait some more but at this point quick fixes aren't coming. M2 has been not just rebuilding but completely re-establishing a football program. I do want wins, I want us to start recruiting kids that other PAC12 programs are offereing, I want some tangible success instead of having to count intangibles. At the same time I also am willing to recognize how far behind we actually were. We almost would have been better off coming off a death penalty, at least then we wouldn't have had to overcome the losing culture that was here when M2 was hired.
 
Mtn, you spent a decent portion of that post arguing against something (firing MM right now) that very few are actually even talking about. Why?
 
Duff Man said:
Mtn, you spent a decent portion of that post arguing against something (firing MM right now) that very few are actually even talking about. Why?
Click to expand...

Didn't intend it as such, more of a have some more patience message. I have seen some posters tending towards that M2 will never win attitude though, certainly not a majority but some. I think at the minimum he deserves more time despite the lack of wins so far.
 
Again though, how many people are arguing against your last sentence? Seems rather redundant as it pertains to this thread.
 
I guess for some it could be redundant but I also sense in the thread some who think he should go soon and/or think he should never have been hired in the first place. Certainly not the majority but it is there just like we have some sunshine pumpers who think that he is a lock to bring us to New Years Bowls and top 10 rankings as well (but fewer of them.)

I also tried in the post to address some of what I see as the "complaining points" that I saw going back through the thread and in some others prior to posting.
 
I really don't think anyone outside of Sly and AZ want Mac fired right now. Slider maybe? Most others know that this wasn't going to be "fixed" in 2 years. And by fixed I mean bowl game or sniffing one, not beating USC and Oregon.

That said, I think it's fair to say that most weren't expecting a 2 win stinker last year. That wasn't good. Most expectations going into last season was something in the 4 win range? And we halved that. Not good. We also were very competitive in a lot of P12 games. Good. But moral wins only really matter and are remembered if we turn those into wins in the near future. If we don't, I can see Mac being in very hot water going into year 4. A firing after 3 years seems quite unlikely, but I don't think many foresaw the disaster that year 2 of Embree was going to be either.
 
White_Rabbit said:
I really don't think anyone outside of Sly and AZ want Mac fired right now. Slider maybe? Most others know that this wasn't going to be "fixed" in 2 years. And by fixed I mean bowl game or sniffing one, not beating USC and Oregon.

That said, I think it's fair to say that most weren't expecting a 2 win stinker last year. That wasn't good. Most expectations going into last season was something in the 4 win range? And we halved that. Not good. We also were very competitive in a lot of P12 games. Good. But moral wins only really matter and are remembered if we turn those into wins in the near future. If we don't, I can see Mac being in very hot water going into year 4. A firing after 3 years seems quite unlikely, but I don't think many foresaw the disaster that year 2 of Embree was going to be either.
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The OT losses were every bit a coaching problem as they were a sign of progress. There was no reason for CU to lose that game against Cal.
It's also a hollow argument to base an argument that Jay MacIntyre poses no risk to team chemistry or recruitment just because WR is a different position than QB.
Having an HC's kid on the team poses political challenges for receivers, assistants, and recruits that simply wouldn't exist if Jay played somewhere else.

Few are saying that MacIntyre should not be coaching, or hasn't been making progress in offensive statistical areas. But it's premature to evaluate him as some kind of savior until he has actually produced something of substance in Boulder.
 
MtnBuff said:
Until we start to win games it can't be called successful but it is certainly easy to see significant progress.

We have seen signs of a significant cultural change. We now look and act like a major college football program. We aren't recruiting guys who will win the PAC 12 but at least we are now stocking the roster with guys who can and will play at a PAC 12 level. This can be the foundation for future teams that do compete for titles, something we didn't have before.

We are playing above our current talent level. A comment was made earlier in the thread that on a pure talent basis we should have been blown out in virtually every PAC 12 game + CSU. The fact that we were in a position to win games is a major step up.

The complaints about JayMac are simply nitpicking until proven otherwise. Yes we had a terrible experience with Hawk and Lil' Hawk. So far I haven't seen indications that M2 is another Hawkins.

There is also a huge difference between a WR and a QB. QBs by the nature of the position are seen and perceived as leaders and representatives of the team. They are the guy who gets the ball every down for at least moments, who call the plays, who face the media after the game and in media sessions. JayMac is in a position where if he fails he's another guy on the depth chart and if he succeeds somebody else is still the QB and JayMac is just a nice story for the broadcast like a punter who kicks with both feet.

A couple observations.

1. Even if M2 fails to get the wins and is shown the door this program will be much more solid than the one he took over, or that Embree took over. We are much closer to winning than we were, still not good but at least not embarrassing.

2. There are comments about 95% of decent college coaches could have matched M2s results but as was mentioned before that last two coaches didn't. Embree was clearly in over his head from day one but Hawkins was considered the hot prospect at the time, had we not hired him somebody else in a major conference would have.

3. Which brings me to the question. If we hadn't hired M2 who were we going to get to come in that was better? Butch Jones dropped us like a hot potato, most of the other top candidates wouldn't look at us to start with.

4. Dump M2 at this point with less than what most coaches consider a fair shot and tell me what other guaranteed win lock coaches are lining up to take the job?

5. M2 has also begun to re-establish some recruiting connections that were broken or rotted away. These may not have gotten us great talent so far but certainly have potential for the future. How far back does it set CU if we panic and dump this staff at this point in the game?

A lot of us have been waiting a lot of years for something decent to happen in CU football. It may be hard to wait some more but at this point quick fixes aren't coming. M2 has been not just rebuilding but completely re-establishing a football program. I do want wins, I want us to start recruiting kids that other PAC12 programs are offereing, I want some tangible success instead of having to count intangibles. At the same time I also am willing to recognize how far behind we actually were. We almost would have been better off coming off a death penalty, at least then we wouldn't have had to overcome the losing culture that was here when M2 was hired.
Click to expand...

Mtn gonna Mtn. What's the TLDR?
 
Skidmark said:
The OT losses were every bit a coaching problem as they were a sign of progress. There was no reason for CU to lose that game against Cal.
It's also a hollow argument to base an argument that Jay MacIntyre poses no risk to team chemistry or recruitment just because WR is a different position than QB.
Having an HC's kid on the team poses political challenges for receivers, assistants, and recruits that simply wouldn't exist if Jay played somewhere else.

Few are saying that MacIntyre should not be coaching, or hasn't been making progress in offensive statistical areas. But it's premature to evaluate him as some kind of savior until he has actually produced something of substance in Boulder.
Click to expand...

It's probably fair to call the OT losses someof both. It is a positive that the biggest weakness got addressed with the replacement of Baer. At the same time M2 is a defensive coach by trade, should he have not taken earlier control. We were still getting killed late in the season by the things CSU did to us in the first game. I understand talent limitations but didn't see much that looked like adjustments.

As to JayMac when I see something that looks like he is actually a negative factor I will worry, until then not so much.
 
MtnBuff said:
It's probably fair to call the OT losses someof both. It is a positive that the biggest weakness got addressed with the replacement of Baer. At the same time M2 is a defensive coach by trade, should he have not taken earlier control. We were still getting killed late in the season by the things CSU did to us in the first game. I understand talent limitations but didn't see much that looked like adjustments.

As to JayMac when I see something that looks like he is actually a negative factor I will worry, until then not so much.
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The coach of a HC is to coach the coaches, not micro manage. I'm sure Mac's expectations were laid out clearly and Baer didn't meet them...same sitch as Connor Wood. Mac did a great job IMO...let Baer succeed or fail, fired him when he failed, and hired what looks like a tremendous DC.
 
White_Rabbit said:
I really don't think anyone outside of Sly and AZ want Mac fired right now. Slider maybe? Most others know that this wasn't going to be "fixed" in 2 years. And by fixed I mean bowl game or sniffing one, not beating USC and Oregon.

That said, I think it's fair to say that most weren't expecting a 2 win stinker last year. That wasn't good. Most expectations going into last season was something in the 4 win range? And we halved that. Not good. We also were very competitive in a lot of P12 games. Good. But moral wins only really matter and are remembered if we turn those into wins in the near future. If we don't, I can see Mac being in very hot water going into year 4. A firing after 3 years seems quite unlikely, but I don't think many foresaw the disaster that year 2 of Embree was going to be either.
Click to expand...

I never said I wanted him fired now. In fact I've said that's completely off the table. My thing with MM now is it "too little too late?" Rewind 2 years ago when he started and he was Mr. Let's accept every old commit and hire 7 SJSU coaches and Toby Neinas. Sounds like a recipe for success. Now after 2 seasons without success and he's finally doing what he should have done and hired solid coaches and cut the commits he didn't like. It also appears that he may have had a recruiting epiphany but the '16 class won't save his job. There's actually a chance they won't even play for him, and if they do it will be as true freshmen in year 4 where the impact will be minimal. I sincerely hope it's not "too little too late."
 
MtnBuff said:
It's probably fair to call the OT losses someof both. It is a positive that the biggest weakness got addressed with the replacement of Baer. At the same time M2 is a defensive coach by trade, should he have not taken earlier control. We were still getting killed late in the season by the things CSU did to us in the first game. I understand talent limitations but didn't see much that looked like adjustments.

As to JayMac when I see something that looks like he is actually a negative factor I will worry, until then not so much.
Click to expand...
Arguably, by not taking control away from Baer, it made it easier to hire a better qualified DC when he was let go. Setting aside what people think of how the DC hiring process went, if MM had taken the reigns over from Baer, he would have been battling the "micromanager" and "won't let the DC coach" tags in addition to any other obstacles.

By not taking control, I would argue that he actually set himself up to get a better DC than if he had. Of course, that probably cost us a couple wins this season, but as with many things we've seen during MM's tenure, we traded short-term gains for better long term benefits.
 
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