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a thread for a hopefully rational discussion about cabral

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Liver, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    let me state my view in advance: 2 or 3 or even 4 wins do not solidify him, imho, as the perfect choice. the players know him and they are playing for him and for each other. yes, he's done way better than hawkins, but do keep in mind that hawkins was THE worst coach in the history of CU football, so that isn't a high bar you are asking cabral to cross.

    rather than getting caught up in a wave of emotion because the guy clearly is as CU as anyone out there, maybe we can try to examine the hire more rationally...

    with all that said, i think the following are the main issues that the committee will need to work through on a cabral hire:

    1. can he coach all 3 phases of the game? he has admitted already that he is not tactically experienced with playcalling or the offensive side of the ball in general. i think he'll do great with special teams and, obviously, with the defense. but, what does he bring to the offensive gameplan, strategy, playcalling, and execution? so, yeah, the retort will be that he just needs a good coordinator. maybe. but, i think it is an open question.

    2. where does he stack up, objectively speaking, against other viable candidates? who else is out there? are they more proven? better rounded? i understand cost is always an issue, but, is he really the BEST hire, in terms of experience and everything else, that we could make, relative to the candidate pool? again, maybe. but, i think this is an open question. would you really put him ahead of a miles or Mac, or even a richt?

    3. who are the staff? on this point, i would like to think there would be consensus. this staff needs a total overhaul. they collectively lost the most games in the history of CU football. you cannot extricate all the crappiness by just changing the hc, imho. i've already seen several internet pundits posting proposed staffs that only change out riddle and collins. that won't work. i think a hard look needs to be taken at whatever staff cabral would try to put together and make sure it is a staff that is b12 caliber. collectively, this last one was not.

    i love cabral. i hope he stays. i want to see him succeed. but, we've just come through the darkest period of CU football, eclipsing even the infamous crappiness of the fairbanks era. let's do this methodically and without losing our rational heads.
     
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  2. Unleash Hell

    Unleash Hell Well-Known Member

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  3. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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  4. KingPants

    KingPants Club Member Club Member

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    I think one thing that should weigh in his favor, is how he has the guys playing already. I know you say we just went through the darkest phase, and that makes what he has done all that much more incredable. His first game against ISU, CU domintated a game like they had only done against Miami of OH and maybe Wyo in the last few years. that was his first game. He is showing a great touch.

    As to your points:
    1. I kind of like a guy that is more of a CEO then a hands on guy. i think Hawk was a hands on guy, and now we are seeing what happens when a guy allows his assistants to coach. My boss could not come in and do my job, but he knows how my job fits into the scheme of things, and he know the general direction that it should go. If Cabral can show that he can do that (and I think he is showing it) then I am ok with that.

    2. Hard to answer. I'm not sure any of us really know. i do tend to put him above Mac, just cause he has been doing it, and he can lean on Mac anytime he wants. I hate to spend 2 mil on a guy for 8-10 wins a year if we can get the same for 1.2 (just bs numbers obviously).

    3. Yeah, some of the staff is growing on me in the last couple of weeks, but most need to probably go. i like Ambrose, but mostly as recruiting potential, not sure about his day to day. I like Prince, but he will probably look to go back to the pros. Other then that, they all need to go or be reassigned (hagen to rc, keisu to QBs...)

    He is not my favorite, but I think we could do a lot worse, and I am afraid that we are going to spend a lot of money to do the same or worse.
     
  5. Tractor

    Tractor Club Member Club Member

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    I'll chip in my worthless answers:

    1. Although most consider this a glaring weakness (for good reason), I find his lack of experience calling plays etc as a strength. I don't think the head coach should be the one to call plays, he's got other more important things to worry about. I think this should be the responsibility of the Coordinators. Who cares if he hasn't called plays or set up defenses, he needs to worry about more administrative tasks and keeping the energy up on the sidelines. Maybe the defense gave up a weird touchdown, he needs to be over there telling them that was a fluke so let it go, not calling plays. He's PROVEN the ability to let his coordinators coordinate. I think this is a HUGE strength.

    Hawk's struggles seem to be involved in meddling in other people's business. The offense was terrible with him, good with just EK. It's pretty obvious we won't have this problem with Cabral. How is it bad to let your OC do his job? Same with defense.

    2. Excellent question. This is something that should definitely be known prior to hiring him. 2 ways to look at it IMO: Would Arkansas etc let a career position coach become head coach? Or forget that he's a CU guy. Would we hire a career position coach with a natioinal championship ring, a super bowl ring and one of the best position coaches in the nation?

    3. I think this is even bigger than #2, but factors in to #2. We need to know the answer to this before we can compare him to our other candidates. These are all connected. Hopefully he can get a good staff based on the fact that he'll let them coach (#1). I'm really hoping his strength in #1 will help these next 2.


    I'm not saying he should be our coach, I really think we shouldn't even be talking about this until after we see the kids play on Friday. However, I think we could do much worse.
     
  6. Unleash Hell

    Unleash Hell Well-Known Member

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    Cabral or Bieniemy at this point.

    Cabral could climb to my #1 if he beats the corn.

    Cabral knows the game is won at the line of scrimmage, Cabral is bringing back the traditions under Mac, and Cabral is letting his assistants do their job.

    If Cabral can recruit and get a good staff, I have little doubt he can lead us to a bright future.
     
  7. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    i'm against nostalgia hires. hire the best person. "family", "bleed black and gold" idea is the same thing that had Mike Shula at Bama and John Blake at OU. How did that work out? EB has never been a coordinator let alone a HC at a major program. to me, NFL experience is not any kind of trump card. too many NFL failures in the college ranks to let that work for me.

    i like what Cabral has done and he deserves to be in the conversation if he wins against Nebraska. I guess. however, it does make for a tricky situation for staff. i like BC, but i want to clean house. no more back to the past or "these Hawk assistants are actually really pretty good minus Dan".....that's bad logic to me.

    truth is we've beaten two average teams at home. that's a crapton better than what we used to be....but still: at home. teams without their starting QB in the 2nd half. not like we went into Norman or Columbus and whipped ass. at best, we've shown we are a legit 6-7 win team.

    i think we all want more.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  8. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I am with Mick here a bit. I do like Cabral and I do think he deserves serious consideration for the job. I think he brings some valuable coaching experience beyond just the typical nostalgia.

    But I think the fanbase is going overboard with the sentiment that every assistant coach was hindered by Hawkins. Most of these guys on the staff are bad coaches and the record over the last five years has proven it.

    EDIT: One other thing that worries me a bit is that Cabral has been coaching with the last couple weeks with little to no pressure. Sure, he wanted to win and he openly states he wants the permanent job, but most of the fanbase has had very low expectations for the last couple games. This week, the talk of him being a truly viable candidate has intensified, so he might be coaching with a bit more pressure this week. But I still wonder how he can handle the pressure of the head job week in and week out.
     
  9. CUBUFF80

    CUBUFF80 No Stinkin' Title Club Member

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    I agree that we cannot let sentiment sway us. We need to take a look at all viable candidates and make an informed decision based upon the best overall candidate. Nostalgia is fun, but as has been pointed out many times, the list of hugely successful programs with an "outsider" at the helm is far more numerous than hiring from "the family".
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  10. Buffalo Brad

    Buffalo Brad Club Member Club Member

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    I have argued that he deserves real consideration at this point and I will stand by that opinion. As for what we are looking for in a coach, I believe he has shown many of the qualities but not all. We will see how he stacks up against the other we interview. As to your points:

    1. can he coach all 3 phases of the game? he has admitted already that he is not tactically experienced with playcalling or the offensive side of the ball in general. i think he'll do great with special teams and, obviously, with the defense. but, what does he bring to the offensive gameplan, strategy, playcalling, and execution? so, yeah, the retort will be that he just needs a good coordinator. maybe. but, i think it is an open question. I think he needs to be the CEO of the operation and set out a strategy for a team identity as well as game day focus. Does he need to coach all three phases, I would argue that he needs to have the correct assistants in place to run each phase of the game, from strategy to execution. There are not many head coaches that have expertise in all three phases. Most HC came from one side of the ball and that is where their expertise resides. I would venture to say many coaches do not get involved in the play calling as a regular part of their duties. Do they have input and final say at times, yes but many successful coaches are not offensive gurus. BC has enough Defensive expertise to qualify.

    2. where does he stack up, objectively speaking, against other viable candidates? who else is out there? are they more proven? better rounded? i understand cost is always an issue, but, is he really the BEST hire, in terms of experience and everything else, that we could make, relative to the candidate pool? again, maybe. but, i think this is an open question. would you really put him ahead of a miles or Mac, or even a richt? Valid questions and points. I have stated he deserves to be seriously considered and let the cards fall where they may when you evaluate the entire pool of candidates.

    3. who are the staff? on this point, i would like to think there would be consensus. this staff needs a total overhaul. they collectively lost the most games in the history of CU football. you cannot extricate all the crappiness by just changing the hc, imho. i've already seen several internet pundits posting proposed staffs that only change out riddle and collins. that won't work. i think a hard look needs to be taken at whatever staff cabral would try to put together and make sure it is a staff that is b12 caliber. collectively, this last one was not. The evaluation of the staff and changes he would make would certainly be an expectation of the interview process in my mind. If BC is ready for the position, this should be an area where he has pretty detailed ideas and plans he can articulate during the interview. If he fails to have solid answers in this area, I would think the committee would question his ability to manage the overall football operation. We as a group will more than likely not know the answer unless he is awarded the position.
     
  11. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    there is NO SUCH THING AS AN OUTSIDER AT TOP PROGRAMS.

    top programs win with different coaches, different staffs...except for maybe Penn State and JoePa has been there since Thomas Jefferson was president. and PSU's OOC until they were in a conference was pathetic. As an indie, they were playing Bucknell and Fordham and Army for most of their games. hell, the 11 basketball forum posters at AB could go .500 on that schedule (or get a rep as dirty players and bad losers).

    excellence > insiders

    it was 20 years ago! Richard Marx was popular. time to move on. if EB is the best guy, bonus.....but no special preference.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  12. SoCal Bob

    SoCal Bob Member

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    I have sincere doubts about his abilities and skills as a CEO. What is his claim to setting standards and evaluating coachs'. Who would he keep and why?

    His lack of aspirations has put huge holes in his resume. It is difficult to assume that he can do all the managerial tasks without having some evidence from past assignments. I listened to his pregame and post game commentary and cringed. He has all the cliches but seems to get lost in his own thoughts. I can't fathom on how he would work out. He lacks verifiable credentials other than longevity. I would sooner see Mac hired to lead, inspire, recruit and most of all galvanize the alumni and bring in the dollars.
     
  13. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    Simple reality is that any guy who we look at close enough is going to have some negative issues. If not they would already be coaching somewhere and winning conference titles while looking for the NC.

    I would rather have a guy who can motivate and deligate than a guy who wants to micromanage every little thing going on. Not knowing how to run an offense isn't a problem if you have someone working for you who does and you let/support him in doing his job.

    Miles is off the table, he's not leaving LSU for CU, that idea is a joke. Richt is a guy I really like but again he's not leaving Georgia on his own and I am not sure he is motivated enough at this point to do the job. Callhoun, unproven, Air Force is a completely different world than CU. I love Mac to death but he's been out 17 years, is 70 years old and still doesn't exactly fit Boulder. My only way with Mac is if he is acknowledged as a transitional coach to someone else. EB, is a lot like Cabral. Great motivator, knows the game as a player and assistant but has never been the guy in charge.

    Staff needs a major turnover. I want Cabral here one way or another, top coach and quality recruiter. Ambrose also has shown to be a top recruiter and a developer of talent. Prince looks like a quality assistant so I wouldn't mind him being here either. Keisau has really performed once he got Hawk out of the way (where have we heard that before?) although he may not be the best choice for OC. The rest can all pick up their checks at the office on their way out without bothering me. Of course final decision on all assistants has to lie with the new HC.
     
  14. Del

    Del Member

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    Okay you make great points but its easy to poke holes in every candidate BUT.... if you do that then stake your claim. Who you got? Who's your boy at this point?

    Based on the info we have on our finances, Bellotti and Richt being off the tabel EB is my guy. I think he is the best available given the landscape and what we can afford. What say you?
     
  15. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    I think EB and Cabral are about even and not only our best choices but also the most realistic. I think EB has an advantage in that he is younger and has more recent NFL experience, this might make him a better closer on the recruiting trail. I put Cabral slightly in front due to the fact that he seems a better fit for the Boulder community and the PR parts of the job, his maturity in tempering his enthusiasm at the appropriate times, and his knowledge of the program as it currently stands including his relationships with the current players.
     
  16. Fight CU

    Fight CU Club Member Club Member

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    thank you thank you thank you!
     
  17. CUFan

    CUFan Welcome back Club Member

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    If I am doing the interviewing, I want to see his proposal and road map for the program. The fact that he did a nice job as interim coach will be a positive, but this program needs so much more. There needs to be a coordinated effort between, the HC, AD, University and boosters as to how this program will be resurrected. The HC needs to present his plan which may include demands for facilities upgrades, increased money for assistants or whatever he thinks he may need as part of his analysis on how CU can compete at a high level once again. To me this hire is about good coaching, but it is also about the complete picture. I want all stakeholders to recognize what is needed to compete prior to this hire. Then when said coach is chosen, all stakeholders agree on a plan to execute their parts.

    Cabral may or may not be this individual. At a minimum, I hope he is seriously considered as a candidate and when interviewed he puts his best foot forward.
     
  18. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    I don't know. It really depends on what he presents in his interview. I think his gameday coaching leaves very little to be desired so far, and he's proven that he can lead, at least in the short term. His long term planning is where I wonder. He seems like a good CEO and a damn solid gameday coach.

    I don't buy it when he says he doesn't know anything about offense. He knows offense, he's had to coach against some of the best offenses in the land for 22 years. He may not know how to gameplan an offense, but well, many head coaches don't do that. They set out the goals and strategy, and let the Ocoord do the work. And you know what? Cabral has already proven that he can do this part of the job quite well. Not an issue imho.

    Now, BB brought up a great point. The pressure. How would he handle an ugly loss? Would he go all Halkins and blame the players and the program after a few, or would he redouble his efforts, think about what he did wrong, and learn? That is a very hard thing to do, and we know nothing about it. Could he hold up during a bad season?

    Recruiting: always been a solid recruiter, if not great, and he sure has the ability to effect kids. Just listen to how the players speak about him. I bet you he can do a damn good job recruiting on in homes and during visits. Not a big worry for me.

    Hiring assistants. I think Cabral knows good football. I think he can identify what he wants and needs in his assistants. However, his negatives are very dangerous here. Where will he find new coaches? Its not like he HAS to have coached with them before. Cabral seems to be the kind fo guy who makes very strong relationships with his player and anyone he works with. And he can call those people up and ask who they think he should hire. And he should already have done so. So his "coaching tree" may be bigger than we think. That said...

    Firing coaches. Cabral is a tough, honest guy who is almost infamous for telling players when they aren't up to snuff. However, he also seems to be a fiercely loyal person. Can he fire someone like a riddle or collins that he has a personal relationship with that is just not getting it done? That is far different from putting a player on the bench. And it is a hard thing to do. But it is a necessary thing, and he needs to be able to do it.

    Finally, long term planning. What are his goals? Can he keep the forest in mind despite the importance of the individual trees in it?


    Again, most of my concerns are nto something that he can allay to the public at large, and instead are something that he must present to the committee/bohn. If he can do those things, he damn well should get the job imho. I don't care if he isn't a big splash. He just needs to be the right guy.

    He may not know how to He's obviously humble enough to listen to people with experience and take advice. However, he does have some issues in public speaking, and I wonder how long it would be before he really put his foot in his mouth. And how he would recover.
     
  19. BinaryBuff

    BinaryBuff mmmm...beer Club Member

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    I think we could do a lot worse than Cabral, but for a lot of the reasons mentioned in this thread, I think a close & careful look needs to be taken at Cabral and see what his vision is for the future of the program and how he's going to get us there. I would say the same for any HC we're looking at though.
     
  20. ThndringHerd

    ThndringHerd Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I'm not coming into this with 8-10 beers in me like I was Sat night. I will attempt rational thought.

    "1. can he coach all 3 phases of the game? he has admitted already that he is not tactically experienced with playcalling or the offensive side of the ball in general. i think he'll do great with special teams and, obviously, with the defense. but, what does he bring to the offensive gameplan, strategy, playcalling, and execution? so, yeah, the retort will be that he just needs a good coordinator. maybe. but, i think it is an open question."

    He doesn't need exp with offensive coaching. He just needs to be able to offer some critique if the OC is stumped or provide insights as to what the other team will likely do on defense so the OC can gameplan for it. Unlike Hawk, I think he realizes his own limitations and will not attempt to run the offense.

    2. where does he stack up, objectively speaking, against other viable candidates? who else is out there? are they more proven? better rounded? i understand cost is always an issue, but, is he really the BEST hire, in terms of experience and everything else, that we could make, relative to the candidate pool? again, maybe. but, i think this is an open question. would you really put him ahead of a miles or Mac, or even a richt?

    All politics aside - Mac is our best bet. Richt and Bellotti are not viable candidates. Miles is about as likely as Jon Gruden to come here. Unless Bohn works some serious juju on Miles or Gruden, Mac is the only coach in our hiring pool who has put up big wins in the national spotlight.

    There are some good coordinators out there who might make outstanding HC's, but there's no way to tell in advance. I'd say a 3-0 finish would put Cabral right up there with any of the hot coordinators. Golden's going to PSU when JoePa steps down. The fanbase will go on strike if Mac/EB/Cabral are passed over for Calhoun. Who else is left? Hoke? Resume-wise, here's how I see it.

    Tier 1 - Mac
    Tier 2 - Hoke/Calhoun
    Tier 3 - everyone else

    3. who are the staff? on this point, i would like to think there would be consensus. this staff needs a total overhaul. they collectively lost the most games in the history of CU football. you cannot extricate all the crappiness by just changing the hc, imho. i've already seen several internet pundits posting proposed staffs that only change out riddle and collins. that won't work. i think a hard look needs to be taken at whatever staff cabral would try to put together and make sure it is a staff that is b12 caliber. collectively, this last one was not.

    If we build the team around the defense (and we will if Cabral is HC), I think Kiesau is a serviceable OC. The kids like him, and the O is much improved the last half of the season. We still don't have a power running game. But some of that is personnel @ RB. The rest could be fixed by a decent line coach.

    Collins should have been let go after '08. Same for Riddle. Anyone we bring in who isn't a proven BCS HC might have issues attracting coordinators. The higher profile ones like Smart or McElwain maybe not, but the rest...? Cabral's been coaching a long, long, time. We don't know who might be in his roll-a-dex. I'm sure that will be discussed at the interview.

    Other factors:

    Can BC recruit? Has a pretty good record as a position coach.

    Behavior? He's a good man. Not going to end up on TMZ or attract negative publicity.

    Press relations? Communication skills are not his strong suit, but he's at least on par with Les Miles in that dept. He'll get a very long leash from the Boulder County press and KOA. The Denver papers will not like it that Dave Logan was passed over for anyone not named Jon Gruden. Pretty much the same for the TV hacks.

    I'd still rather have Mac as HC, but Bohn may not be prepared to fight the admin to get him in.
     
  21. Darian3Hagan

    Darian3Hagan '89 Player of the Year Club Member

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    Cabral is 10x the coach that Hawkins was but hes not going to get the HC job I goddamnguarantee it.
     
  22. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    He's no Dave Logan.
     
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  23. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    I have nothing against BC, but why is he suddenly such an awesome candidate for HC? He comes in, the team plays hard for him, we win against a couple of average teams at home, and now we can't do better than him?

    I really hate the idea of hiring in house because I'd assume that a lot of the current staff would keep their jobs, and that is simply unacceptable to me. At least if we hire Mac, he'd fire Collins, Riddle, Brandison, and DJ right off the bat. Does BC just up and fire those same guys who he has worked with for the last 5 years?
     
  24. SINKRATZ

    SINKRATZ Club Member Club Member

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    What do the following coaches have in common:

    Urban Meyer
    Nick Saban
    Mack Brown
    Bob Stoops
    Jim Tressel
    Chip Kelly
    Bret Bielema
    Chris Petersen
    Gary Patterson
    Les Miles
    Jim Harbaugh
    Bo Pelini
    Gary Pinkel

    Aside from being some of the top coaches in all of college football, none of them is coaching at their alma mater. I appreciate Cabral's love for CU, but "bleeding black and gold" shouldn't be a prerequisitite for the job. The impotance of hiring someone from the CU family is way overstated IMO. You hire the best coach you can get period.

    Cabral is a great Buff, but the fact that he's been here 20+ years and has never even been promoted to DC concerns me. There has been a lot of talk about potential candidates and honestly Cabral is going to have a hard time competing with many of them, JMO.
     
  25. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    It would be nice to have a head coach with some experience with the offense but not a big deal for me. If he has good assistant coaches,they can do their job like he says.

    Problem is, will they keep collins,johnson,the riddler around? Does hagan get to stay? I don't want to see some of these coaches on the staff next season, they've sucked for 5 years and it wasn't all hawk keeping them down.

    If cabral was chosen, does bohn relate a need for new assistant coaches?
     
  26. canuck_buff

    canuck_buff Active Member

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    My view is Cabral could be a perfect gamble that I can live with easily. If it comes down to Cabral or some other mid major schmuck coach with no previous wow resume I choose Cabral. Unless it is a true high end $$$$ HC I want Cabral. Simply put Cabral bleeds black and gold and for that passion alone and his loyalty i want him here as a HC or asst. HC I want him as a serious contributor in the process going forward.

    Ps FUUUUKKKK the going back in time 15 yrs ago thoughts on bringing Mac back btw. That ship has sailed long long time ago.
     

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