Are the Arizona schools falling?

[onealcd]

Compare Skippy's record an any school to what CU has been in the past five or so years. I didn't say i'd take Skippy over Meyer or Saban. Let me know when Meyer or Saban is signing up at CU.

Mangino was a fat pig, but he had charisma in football terms. I'm not talking about lady killer or political charisma. Did Gill in fact recruit well? I don't know the answer to that question.

Win a lower levels like the Hawlk? Build/turnaround a program like MM at SJSU? How's that working out? You build a p5 program with PLAYERS.

If Skippy was given a program in the shape Colorado was in after Hawkins his record would have sucked.

 

[buffaholic]

Recruiting counts more than X's and O's in college football. That's my premise. Do you disagree?

They both count but there's plenty of guys who've won without recruiting fame (as measured by Scout and Rivals, rankings). We've discussed many but Art Briles is one.
There's nobody who took over a bottom dweller, and recruited reallly well, and then won. A bunch failed that way.
Neuheisel himself set the table for Mora (and an A+ staff) to come in and reap. They won instantly and then recruited just as well.

So based on statistics, better coaching is more important. And yes, all the top programs (i.e. the winners such as Alabama and Stanford) are recruiting great. But look at Harbaugh's first 3 years. They didn't recruit better (in terms of rankings) than the guys before him. He turned them into bad ass mofos and they accelerated it from there. His reputation grew and recruits started to listen. In other words, his charisma grew when he went from a relatively unproven guy to a superstar.

 

[buffaholic]

Compare Skippy's record an any school to what CU has been in the past five or so years. I didn't say i'd take Skippy over Meyer or Saban. Let me know when Meyer or Saban is signing up at CU.

Mangino was a fat pig, but he had charisma in football terms. I'm not talking about lady killer or political charisma. Did Gill in fact recruit well? I don't know the answer to that question.

Win a lower levels like the Hawlk? Build/turnaround a program like MM at SJSU? How's that working out? You build a p5 program with PLAYERS.

You can't just look at Skippy's record without CONTEXT.
He took over from Bill McCartney. He had a National Championship team. When he left, we were getting worse in a steady decline. Gary Barnett will tell you that after the 2001 seniors, there were giant holes in what Neuheisel left behind. QB was barren! yet the media refers to Skippy to this day as a "QB genius". The man, the myth.

Do you really think that's the kind of guy that is needed?

Bill McCartney is a guy who was relatively unknown, took over a bottom-dweller and built it (not in 4 years though). He had lots of Charisma. And he had lots of coaching skills. Unique guy. I haven't seen it since. If that guy is available, hire him.

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

They both count but there's plenty of guys who've won without recruiting fame (as measured by Scout and Rivals, rankings). We've discussed many but Art Briles is one.
There's nobody who took over a bottom dweller, and recruited reallly well, and then won. A bunch failed that way.
Neuheisel himself set the table for Mora (and an A+ staff) to come in and reap. They won instantly and then recruited just as well.

So based on statistics, better coaching is more important. And yes, all the top programs (i.e. the winners such as Alabama and Stanford) are recruiting great. But look at Harbaugh's first 3 years. They didn't recruit better (in terms of rankings) than the guys before him. He turned them into bad ass mofos and they accelerated it from there. His reputation grew and recruits started to listen. In other words, his charisma grew when he went from a relatively unproven guy to a superstar.

Saban, Meyer and Harbaugh are THE most fanatical recruiters in the business. If anyone gets it, it's these guys. I've read some very interesting articles on the obsessive and scientific process Saban uses in recruiting. He's got exact height and weight targets for each position. He recruits to his style of play. Obviously it works. Meyer was literally on the phone recruiting the night he won a national championship at Florida. Harbaugh is pissing people off by holding recruiting camps in the southeast, getting in the kitchen of the SEC schools.

I'll give you one example of a great recruiter and mediocre coach who had tremendous success: Mack Brown. North Carolina was garbage before Mack came in and he had them ranked in the top ten when he left. Texas was .500 for 15 years before Brown. Brown instantly got talent and went on a ten year tear at UT. Nobody has ever called Mack a genius coach. That's what coordinators are for.

Look, it's easy to cherry pick data to support an idea. Regardless, I believe in talent before coaching; not instead of coaching, but before coaching.

I'll give you a crazy idea for CU: Lane Kiffin. I know he's hated, but I would bet serious cash he could pull CU into the middle of the p12 with his ability to recruit and produce on the offensive side. Everybody think's he a douche, maybe for good reason, but few think he's an idiot when it comes to coaching the offense and recruiting. Now, would you want him even if you can win? That's a different discussion.

 

[Duff Man]

I like how Holic seems to only think you can find HCs that have been head coaches in smaller divisions. Is Holic Mike Bohn?

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

I seriously believe Kiffin could come into CU and quickly fence off CO's top talent. Some people have it, some don't. Dude is a closer. Kiffin is a proven commodity in this regard. Certainly there are other questions about LK. I'm mainly just using him as an example, not necessarily advocating for the guy.

 

[PAHIBuff]

Rich Rod is a fraud. Graham is the real deal.

 

[SerenityBuff]

Hopefully.

 

[SINKRATZ]

They both count but there's plenty of guys who've won without recruiting fame (as measured by Scout and Rivals, rankings). We've discussed many but Art Briles is one.
There's nobody who took over a bottom dweller, and recruited reallly well, and then won. A bunch failed that way.
Neuheisel himself set the table for Mora (and an A+ staff) to come in and reap. They won instantly and then recruited just as well.

So based on statistics, better coaching is more important. And yes, all the top programs (i.e. the winners such as Alabama and Stanford) are recruiting great. But look at Harbaugh's first 3 years. They didn't recruit better (in terms of rankings) than the guys before him. He turned them into bad ass mofos and they accelerated it from there. His reputation grew and recruits started to listen. In other words, his charisma grew when he went from a relatively unproven guy to a superstar.

I feel like there must be a coach out there who took over a terrible program and won by dramatically increasing the talent level, but I just can't think of any...oh well.

 

[onealcd]

Saban, Meyer and Harbaugh are THE most fanatical recruiters in the business. If anyone gets it, it's these guys. I've read some very interesting articles on the obsessive and scientific process Saban uses in recruiting. He's got exact height and weight targets for each position. He recruits to his style of play. Obviously it works. Meyer was literally on the phone recruiting the night he won a national championship at Florida. Harbaugh is pissing people off by holding recruiting camps in the southeast, getting in the kitchen of the SEC schools.

I'll give you one example of a great recruiter and mediocre coach who had tremendous success: Mack Brown. North Carolina was garbage before Mack came in and he had them ranked in the top ten when he left. Texas was .500 for 15 years before Brown. Brown instantly got talent and went on a ten year tear at UT. Nobody has ever called Mack a genius coach. That's what coordinators are for.

Look, it's easy to cherry pick data to support an idea. Regardless, I believe in talent before coaching; not instead of coaching, but before coaching.

I'll give you a crazy idea for CU: Lane Kiffin. I know he's hated, but I would bet serious cash he could pull CU into the middle of the p12 with his ability to recruit and produce on the offensive side. Everybody think's he a douche, maybe for good reason, but few think he's an idiot when it comes to coaching the offense and recruiting. Now, would you want him even if you can win? That's a different discussion.

A ton of good points here but lost all credibility when you brought up kiffen. The guy is a terrible head coach and it is obvious to anyone, Maryland just passed on him this week after interviewing him. Hiring kiffen is the definition of hiring recruiting instead of coaching like you pointed out.

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

A ton of good points here but lost all credibility when you brought up kiffen. The guy is a terrible head coach and it is obvious to anyone, Maryland just passed on him this week after interviewing him. Hiring kiffen is the definition of hiring recruiting instead of coaching like you pointed out.

I stand by my statement that Kif would have CU in the middle of the pack in the P12. Excellent recruiting and offensive acumen can get you that far I believe. Please understand, I'm not comparing LK to Saban. I'm looking at LK in the context of CU's performance for the past six years or so. I don't know if you are aware of this, but MM has had not won a lot of p12 games.

Also, like I said, I'm just using LK as an example. Not advocating for him. My point is the same, talent first then X's and O's. This is not what MM is doing or working towards IMO.

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

A ton of good points here but lost all credibility when you brought up kiffen. The guy is a terrible head coach and it is obvious to anyone, Maryland just passed on him this week after interviewing him. Hiring kiffen is the definition of hiring recruiting instead of coaching like you pointed out.

Also, if Kiffin is recruiting instead of coaching, then what is MM?

 

[ahoelsken]

There's a difference between being a great recruiter and a great coach....very few guys are both. Rick could recruit like nobody I've seen, but he couldn't coach. Mangino couldn't go into the living room of a five star and talk him into KU, but he got talent he knew fit what he wanted to, and maximized it. HUGE difference between the kind of talent that works at SJSU and here, even with admissions standards being relaxed. Somebody wrote that Colorado has an uncanny ability to scare every big name team they play without being able to finish someone, and thats very accurate. We have the talent to play with anyone, including Southern Cal-we just did. Where we struggle is taking care of business in basic football situations-allowing a guy to get outside and to the marker on third down, playing like we were not expecting USC to take a shot coming off a blocked field goal, etc.

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

There's a difference between being a great recruiter and a great coach....very few guys are both. Rick could recruit like nobody I've seen, but he couldn't coach. Mangino couldn't go into the living room of a five star and talk him into KU, but he got talent he knew fit what he wanted to, and maximized it. HUGE difference between the kind of talent that works at SJSU and here, even with admissions standards being relaxed. Somebody wrote that Colorado has an uncanny ability to scare every big name team they play without being able to finish someone, and thats very accurate. We have the talent to play with anyone, including Southern Cal-we just did. Where we struggle is taking care of business in basic football situations-allowing a guy to get outside and to the marker on third down, playing like we were not expecting USC to take a shot coming off a blocked field goal, etc.

Few bottom feeder teams in P5 conferences get blown out in every single game. The top dogs routinely have neck and neck games with bottom feeders for a half or three quarters, then they always pull away. I think that gives the bottom feeders the false impression that it's closer than it actually is. The talent is what lets them coast on cruise control for three quarters and then step up to close it out.

 

[buffaholic]

I like how Holic seems to only think you can find HCs that have been head coaches in smaller divisions. Is Holic Mike Bohn?

I think it's more difficult to judge what the end result will be as there's been a lot of great hires and bad hires this way. I'd have taken that chance if I was Bohn perhaps a couple hires ago.

We weren't that close and we could have hired a great recruiter and taken our chances, knowing at the least, the talent level would be upgraded in a big way. We all thought that was the case with the Embree hire, did we not?

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

I think it's more difficult to judge what the end result will be as there's been a lot of great hires and bad hires this way. I'd have taken that chance if I was Bohn perhaps a couple hires ago.

We weren't that close and we could have hired a great recruiter and taken our chances, knowing at the least, the talent level would be upgraded in a big way. We all thought that was the case with the Embree hire, did we not?

Did Embree have any track record with recruiting? I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong. Being a former player and/or alum doesn't mean much when it comes to recruiting. You are a closer or your are not. Coffee is for closers.

 

[Colorado Track Fan]

Here is another closer:

 

[BuffUp]

If they are failing? I want CU to fail like them.

 

[BlackNGold]

This is getting back to is it Xs and Os or Jimmy and Joes. Talent is the foundation.

 

[ahoelsken]

Few bottom feeder teams in P5 conferences get blown out in every single game. The top dogs routinely have neck and neck games with bottom feeders for a half or three quarters, then they always pull away. I think that gives the bottom feeders the false impression that it's closer than it actually is. The talent is what lets them coast on cruise control for three quarters and then step up to close it out.

You seen Kansas play lately?

 

[Duff Man]

I think it's more difficult to judge what the end result will be as there's been a lot of great hires and bad hires this way. I'd have taken that chance if I was Bohn perhaps a couple hires ago.

We weren't that close and we could have hired a great recruiter and taken our chances, knowing at the least, the talent level would be upgraded in a big way. We all thought that was the case with the Embree hire, did we not?

More talking about your implication that P5 coordinators are not worth a look. Hence the Bohn reference.

 

[BlackNGold]

More talking about your implication that P5 coordinators are not worth a look. Hence the Bohn reference.

You mean like McElwain?

 

[buffaholic]

Paging @TomServo - how you feeling about ASU this year after that opener?

 

[PAHIBuff]

RichRod has a tiny river of drool coming out of his mouth....a classic moron.