1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Boyle, "We would have signed six"

Discussion in 'Colorado Basketball Recruiting Central' started by btbuff, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. btbuff

    btbuff It's an inside joke Club Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes Received:
    69
    Interesting comments by Tad in the Denver Post. He says that they would have signed six players if Wallace would have signed with CU. I guess it makes sense since we would have had Cain's scholarship available. http://www.denverpost.com/cu/ci_19303065?utm_medium=facebook

    R
    egardless, a great class to be excited about.
     
  2. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    25,787
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    he sounds really high on Talton, too bad we won't see him for a few years.
     
  3. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    80,738
    Likes Received:
    16,445
    It's hard to speculate.

    3 years ago, people weren't any more excited about Burks than they were Hornbuckle, Sharpe or Harris-Tunks. Excitement built when he grew a few inches after signing day, but it was still a big surprise to most of us when we heard he was starting in the preseason scrimmages.

    I guess what I'm saying is that most of the focus for the 2012 class will be on Johnson and Scott, but any of them could end up being the breakout freshman.
     
  4. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    56,966
    Likes Received:
    4,974
    Yup. Remember Talton is only 17 and has big feet. He won't get faster etc, but he could definitely grow the frame.
     
  5. JRK7

    JRK7 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    11
    Apparently Talton had been committed for some time now but they kept it under wraps because they didn’t want to scare off Wallace. Had they taken 6 this class they would have had no scholarships for next year so Boyle must have really liked Talton. Id like to defer judgment to him since he knows a lot more about basketball then I do but the people who do the ranking on the recruiting sites and all of the other BCS conference coaches also know a lot more then I do and they don’t appear to be all that impressed by Talton or Chris Jenkins for that matter. In my experience with perceived questionable personnel decisions the coach or GM or whoever turns out to be wrong more then they’re right.

    Boyle made some comment along the lines of we value our evaluations and don’t care what other people think and that’s a good attitude to have but it just seems strange to take those players while at the same time he reportedly didn’t “like” an elite player like Artis and basically stopped recruiting Harriston, Longrus, and Morris-Walker all of whom we probably could have gotten had we wanted to or we could have saved the scholarship for one of the several highly rated 2013 players that we appear to be in a good position with. Contrary to what AllBuffs may have you believe not every player who is lowly rated or has an underwhelming offer list is an “under the radar sleeper” or “has a lot of potential.” As football recruiting taught us often these players are just not very good. Time will tell.
     
  6. RumblinBuff

    RumblinBuff That one blogging guy Club Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    241
    The Keegan hype was huge.
     
  7. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    25,787
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    but how big is his pen?
     
  8. Hoops Fan

    Hoops Fan Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    50
    If this is true, perhaps it is a reflection on Wallace. If the guy is truly as good as advertized, why wouldn't he not worry too much about competition from another point guard? I don't mean to sound like sour grapes because he did not sign with the Buffs, this there is another perhaps telling point involved when he dropped Oregon because they expressed interest in another higher rated point guard. I wish him the best, but if he his decision is related to not wanting to face competition, then he has some confidence hurdles to overcome.
     
  9. COhoops

    COhoops New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    4
    The bottom line is that CTB is going to get the best players he can get. The recruiting process is not cut and dry. You don't want to spread yourself out too thin because the kids see that. It is more important to do a great job recruiting a few guys than it is to do a decent job recruiting a ton of guys...If that makes sense.

    It is almost comical to hear that CU "stopped" recruiting Longrus or Artis. When it becomes blatantly obvious that the kid is not interested, I guess you "stop" recruiting them. Looking at those guys objectively you would have to say they didn't like CU the way they liked other schools. If CU had a chance of getting them, they would not have "stopped" recruiting them.

    CTB is trying to get the best guys he can get under whatever the fluid circumstances are. The staff has a board of prospects and when they miss on one, they put an emphasis on the next. I'm sure there is a point where they weigh the options of taking a guys committment or trying to wait for another guy who they want more, but there is always a possibility you get neither. That is not a good feeling.

    As far as Talton and Jenkins, at some point they were next on the board. If we are being real, CU is not to the point where they can just go out and get anyone. Josh Scott was a great early evaluation, and Wes Gordon was for that matter too. Not taking away from the staff, in fact giving them credit for that. Gettin Xavier J. to committ shows how hard the staff is working and how the program is headed in the right direction, but is more of an exception than a rule. If you are expecting to get a handful of top 100 or 150 guys after one season where the team ALMOST made the NCAA tournament, those expectations are not all that realistic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2011
    azbuff likes this.
  10. GoBuffs!!

    GoBuffs!! Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    39
    While I will agree not everyone is a under the radar type guy, you have to give Tad some credit, Roberson was not highly rated, and neither was Scott/Gordon when they recruited them. Tad was also rather sucessful getting talent into UNC and Wichita State. Both places he got talent above what the school should be able draw, and he did that by finding the guys that were under evaluated.

    As another poster hinted at, Basketball is about getting a couple really good players. For example, would you rather have a team full of Marcus Relephorde's or a couple of Alec Burks. I think it is best to go after the guys you feel can excel beyond what anyone thinks, then go after the "safe" players that everyone is recruiting highly.

    This is a conversation I would rather have in 3 years. Right now Tad is 1/2, Roberson came out as a stud, Ben Mills has come out basically where he was expected (Although I feel like we will see something from him in a year or two).
     
  11. Goose

    Goose Hoops Moderator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,562
    Likes Received:
    1,548
    This. I just want everyone to re-read that.

    It cracks me up how everyone - and I'm including myself - has gotten greedy lately. Do you realize that guys like Jenkins & Talton would have been almost headliners in previous years recruiting classes? And we're BITCHING about them. It's incredible what Tad has done.

    That said, I'm starting to come around on Talton. I think he's going to be a good player for us. As for Jenkins, I have no read on him what-so-ever. Very little film, very little analysis. But considering we brought in two TOP 100 guys, and a third who was probably in the top 150, I think Boyle deserves the benefit of the doubt here.
     
  12. dyemeduke

    dyemeduke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,185
    Likes Received:
    198
    I agree that Boyle (as all coaches for their first few years as they accrue clout) should be given the benefit of the doubt. I'm not UPSET about XT's signing, but I'm just surprised. Bball evaluations in my opinion are much easier to do than football, and with all of the AAU circuits out there, good players are usually well known at an early age. As someone else noted, recruiting sites aren't too high on XT or Jenkins. Sure, just like in football, don't take recruiting services for the know-all end-all, but I do believe recruiting sites a lot more when it comes to bball than in football. I just saw XT as a walk-on...scholarships are too valuable to be taking on multiple potential projects. Mills is one...I hope XT isn't another. Combine our tight schollie situation next season with already having Sharpe, Dinwiddie, Booker and Chen on the team, and I just don't see the point of XT. I really hope I'm flat out wrong on him.

    Overall this was a great class - kudos to the staff. I was really getting excited for next year too, but where do we find space? I can see the potential of Sharpe transferring to a CA school due to lack of playing time (hopefully doesn't happen...I think he brings a lot to the table if he's healthy and playing to his potential). Perhaps Dre leaves early (I for one don't think he does)...are we just going to sign one guy?

    Is Chen on scholarship now?
     
  13. COhoops

    COhoops New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    4
    In basketball opposed to football, yes, scouting and evaluating is easier for the most part. The point I'm trying to make is that just cause CU know's who the best players are, that doesn't mean they can get them. CU has to score on some under appreciated prospects because the program is not at the point where it can land too many big time prospects. That is why signing Scott, XJ, and even Gordon is a big deal...They are recruiting out of their league in comparison to what the program has accomplished recently.
     
  14. AeroBuff99

    AeroBuff99 Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    310
    Having lived in Kansas for the past decade, I can see similarities between how KU recruits and how CU is starting to recruit, although at a slightly different level. KU picks up one or two of the top 10 kids in the country every year, plus adds depth players and usually gets whoever the best kid in Kansas is. This year the best in-stater was also one of the top kids in the country. But if you look at KU's roster over the years they usually have one or two players from small Kansas towns that play their role and play them well, good fundamentals and shoot lights out. You need those kids to build a program. The one and dones may put you over the top for a year, but the kids who stay all 4 years (or at least 3) give you the leadership on the floor. Boyle looks like he is starting down that road. Try to get a couple of really top notch players, then fill out the roster with kids that have solid fundamentals that you can build on.
     
  15. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    30,123
    Likes Received:
    2,550
    I think that if you have the schollies, then you take the best players you can find. Banking the schollie sounds all well and good, but maybe Boyle felt like he could round out the class and spend his time working on the top players for 2013 - 2014
     
  16. dyemeduke

    dyemeduke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,185
    Likes Received:
    198
    I wasn't arguing against your post - I actually really liked your post in response to JRK7...it was right on (I too find the notion that we "stopped" recruiting Artis sort of laughable...just like how some Duke fans are saying K "stopped" recruiting Poythress...no, both players were just obviously not going to the respective schools).

    However, I sort of argue with your wording on this post. Yes, CU will not get the top players just because they know who they are. However, if CU does get them, do they need to sign the players that were down on their target list too? If you strike on your top prospects, of course you need to sign under-appreciated prospects, but if you hit on XJ, do you really need Jenkins? If you hit on Dinwiddie and Booker one year, do you need to go after XT (I understand TB was going after other points too, but they were exceptional talents)? Yes, the staff is recruiting out of their league right now, and it's awesome. But I'm just not full on board with one signee, just like I was with Mills. I still will root for them of course, and I really hope they not only come to love CU and develop as players, but as men. Still...just confused by the signings.
     
  17. COhoops

    COhoops New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    4
    My argument would be that there are no guarantee's they will find better guys next year. I don't see this season being a great one (sorry), and if you wait until after early signing day, both of these guys may have already committed elsewhere. JMO.

    I see your point that they are not "needed" right now, and to be honest I'm probably on your side of the argument, but we don't know what the plan is behind the scenes.
     
  18. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    80,738
    Likes Received:
    16,445
    Let me apply a football recruiting perspective and see if the basketball guys feel like it applies.

    Currently, Embree is looking at a senior class of 26 scholarship players. Due to attrition that occurs, he can sign 28-30 guys (counting back 3-5 to 2011 through early enrollees).

    Embree is also looking at a junior class of only 11 players, which could go lower if there's attrition.

    A max recruiting class for a year in football is 25. The full scholarship allocation is 85.

    Considering redshirt years, balancing classes is an inexact science. Adding in attrition rates (injuries, transfers, etc.), a program will usually have more freshmen than seniors for a balanced roster.

    Assuming that you might lose 2 guys per year on average from each recruiting class, a balanced football roster might be:

    Seniors: 17
    Juniors: 19
    Sophomores: 21
    Freshmen (active): 23
    Freshmen (redshirting): 5

    Each year, if averages hold and things were balanced, a coach would bring in 23 players (17 players plus 2 lost to attrition from the 3 other classes).

    If Embree was focused on balancing classes over time, he might consider only bringing in 25 players for the 2012 class and having 5 guys banked for 2013. This, with expected attrition, would give him an opportunity to sign 20 in that next class and start balancing the roster out.

    No one is suggesting he does this. The idea is to bring in as much talent as possible as soon as possible so long as everyone he signs is a guy he believes will help the program win.

    In basketball, with less redshirting, the ideal is to balance the 13 scholarships as follows:

    Seniors: 3
    Juniors: 3
    Sophs: 3
    Frosh: 4

    Our situation in 2012 (assuming no redshirts or attrition) is:

    Seniors: 0
    Juniors: 5 (Adams, Mills, Roberson, Sharpe, Tunks)
    Sophs: 3 (Booker, Dinwiddie, Cain)
    Frosh: 5 (Gordon, Jenkins, Johnson, Scott, Talton)

    I'm assuming Cain earns his scholarship back.

    Why is there more emphasis on banking scholarships in basketball with many of our experts?

    Doesn't it make more sense for Tad to sign as many guys as he can who he believes will help us win when he has room to sign them?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to use redshirts over banking scholarships (better practices, insurance against injury, win now) than to bank and hope?

    Here's one realistic hypothetical on how Tad could manage our current roster to get class balance:

    Cain plays in 2011 and earns scholarship.
    Mills redshirts in 2011.
    Dre plays well enough to enter the 2013 draft (after junior year).
    Two of our 5 freshman redshirt in 2012 (let's assume this goes by the scouting service ratings).

    That would make 2013 look as follows:

    Seniors: 3 (Adams, Sharpe, Tunks)
    Juniors: 4 (Booker, Cain, Dinwiddie, Mills)
    Sophs: 3 (Gordon, Johnson, Scott)
    Frosh: 2 (Jenkins, Talton)

    That would total 12 players and we'd have 1 scholarship opening for the spring signing period if Dre entered the NBA draft. Total class balance in this case.

    Does this make sense?
     
    GoldenBuff, aik and Darth Snow like this.
  19. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    56,966
    Likes Received:
    4,974
    Allbuffs is awesome. ESPN has nothing on us.
     
  20. COhoops

    COhoops New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    4
    Good stuff, Buffnik.

    Throw in the fact that big time D1 coaches get about zero time to win, so banking scholarships isn't really an option under that kind of pressure.
     
  21. Goose

    Goose Hoops Moderator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2005
    Messages:
    10,562
    Likes Received:
    1,548
    'Nik, I think you nailed it. I just think that the big outcry for banking scholarships (and I am one of those that was hoping to keep at least one) was because looking over the 2013 recruit index, there are some PROMISING names on there. Now I realize a lot can happen in between now and then, and we may have a scholarship or two open up somehow, but I like having the peace of mind knowing that if Chris Thomas decided right now to commit to CU that we could take him and not worry about how we would fit him in.

    BTW, everyone needs to rep 'Nik for that post. Damn.
     
  22. GoBuffs!!

    GoBuffs!! Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    39
    Very good analysis, and I agree for the most part but,

    I dont see Andre leaving after his junior year. I think he is talented, but just dont see him going in 2013, I would expect to see him go after his senior year. I think this will be a hot topic of conversation for a while, but we will see tonight if he has worked on his Ball handling and shooting.

    I also dont see Tad using Redshirts very much, but I think you can make the assumption you will lose at least one person for the year for injuries/focus on academics. Previously I would say you would lose at least one person to transfering, but that looks to be a artifact of the Bz/Patton era, everyone seems much happier under Boyle.

    All that said, you have completely convinced me of the theory to not hold back scholarships.
     
  23. dyemeduke

    dyemeduke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,185
    Likes Received:
    198
    Great post Buffnik, but I agree with the points made by GoBuffs. Redshirts aren't the used as frequently in bball as in football, and I don't think XT and Jenkins will be redshirting (who knows though of course). I also do not see Dre leaving after his junior season - but we'll know better after this season. Attrition does happen, but I wouldn't plan on attrition from happening. Deal with the problems when you cross that bridge.

    I think it was Goose that mentioned the promising players that TB is after as well in '13. I think recruiting with just one spot available is tough - you can't be as broad with your efforts, because you want the top guys on your board...but there are no guarantees so you have to show love to lesser guys that may commit quicker...BUT I admit...I'm sort of speaking out of my ass here, because it's all speculation on my part - I'm not a college bball coach.

    I don't think we're as bad as under RP's seven member class - obviously we're not. However, I'm still a proponent of being wise with your scholarships, banking a few if necessary. In bball, you get 13 schollies, and they are so valuable. I can think of a few RP players that he just gave schollies to - just because he needed some players and had space. They contributed absolutely nothing. Why do this? Why not allow yourself the freedom to go after another player next year that you feel can really contribute (sure, you could just tell a kid to hit the road if they're not producing on the court, but I don't like that tactic - it's just not right). I'm not saying XT or Jenkins (I actually like Jenkins, but he's been sort of grouped into the XT conversations) are as bad as those RP kids, but did we NEED to get them on the squad? Could one of their schollies have been used to recruit someone better in next year's class?

    That's all I have to say on the matter. I don't want to keep coming off as being critical of XT or Jenkins. Seriously, congrats to them for receiving fruit for their hard work. I find them intriguing prospects that hopefully can contribute by Jr/Sr year. I'm just confused to why they were brought on board when we signed two good guards last year, and already had a touted wing committed. I hope they prove me wrong.
     
  24. GoBuffs!!

    GoBuffs!! Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,222
    Likes Received:
    39
    I think with Boyle, you will never see him recruit many big men. A couple just to be able to bang down low, but I feel his whole gameplan is built around long quick guards. Simular to Turgeon (Who is going to be putting dook in its place in the upcoming years just as Gary did), I believe this is what Boyle's gameplan will always be.
     
  25. JRK7

    JRK7 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    11
    I didn't say we stopped recruting Artis I said that Tad didn't "like" Artis so he decided not to pursue him which was a report from Buffscoop I belive and I found it strange that he would like Talton but not Artis. As far as Longrus he had us in his top-3 and was scheduled to come out on an official visit but we canceled the visit, again we canceled the visit not him and he had us as one of his finalists. Sure sounds to me like we stoped recruiting him, how would you classify the situation and why do think that it was "blatantly obvious" that he wasn't interested in us? Next time you want to argue with someone you should probably make sure that you're actually informed on what you're talking about.
     
  26. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    25,890
    Likes Received:
    1,508
    There is your issue you lack perspective. "Report from buffscoop" should be taken with a huge grain of salt. He's been a lot better lately (and yung seems to be a decent guy) but AZ's not below flat making **** up so he's the only one with the "scoop" or to further his agenda. Look no farther than his "accidental" tweet about Cain realize college costs money so he's reluctantly back on the team.
     
  27. JRK7

    JRK7 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    11
    He was a solid 3-star prospect and had offers from other BCS conference school, neither of those things can be said about Talton or Jenkins. And while I'll give Tad credit for landing Roberson it was Bzdelik and Abatemarco who "found" Roberson and began recruiting him otherwise he may not have even been on Tad's radar.
     
  28. RK

    RK UBL Club Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,920
    Likes Received:
    474
    Talton is a 3* now as well
     
  29. JRK7

    JRK7 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    11
    According to Rivals who for some reason rarely ever gives 2-star ratings in basketball (only 56 this year in the whole country) and I think they give you an automatic 3-stars if you committ to a BCS conference program. ESPN which seems to put in the most work on basketball recruiting rate Talton and Jenkins not only as 2-star players but low level 2-star players.
     
  30. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    25,890
    Likes Received:
    1,508
    Again perspective, there are too many basketball players and far less money in it so coverage is spotty at best, and often highly regional, both players have now been bumped to 3* status by rivals. Talton was the 4A class player of the year so he can definitely ball. Probably more of a depth guy and Sr. contributor who may redshirt but good teams have benches, he helps to fill ours out.

    Take a look at Gordon, High 3* by ESPN and a 4* on scout, yet uranked by rivals, basketball recruitment is a coverage game in a lot of places. Jenkins was able to score 28+ a game in a tough league in detroit, has good length and 3pt shot. That fits what we are looking to do perfectly. As for his ESPN rating not to rain on your parade they (like rivals and scout) assign recruits they havent checked out to blocks in order to fill out their number of covered players.
     

Share This Page