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CU admission requirements for athletes...

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by ScottyBuff, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone help me with fact-finding on the admission standards for CU student-athletes vs the rest of the Big 12?

    The last information that I can find that compares Student and Student athletes at CU and other Big 12 schools is this:

    http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/stories/2008/12/28/academic_charts.html

    I cannot believe that is anywhere near an accurate representation of the current admission requirements.

    If that is true, that is really shocking that our student-athletes would rank 3rd to last in the Big 12, just ahead of Okie Lite and Tech!

    Is there anyone with a more up-to-date reference?
     
  2. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    I hope you find the info. Would be very interesting. And if you do find it, we've got the comparison number for 2000-2002 (pre-scandal) in your original link.
     
  3. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    The link you provide says nothing about admission standards. It only shows the average of football players vs. students. Average and Minimum are quite different.

    Each school has a baseline requirement for students and one for athletes. Sometimes, those requirements are identical or near identical. Sometimes the university publishes the requirements for students, but I don't think you will ever find them published for athletes.

    Cal for example get's a pretty good average because they are a top academic and research institution and thus they will attract some of the brightest athletes. However, they can also admit some pretty sketchy student athletes as witnessed by a few of the guys they got in this fall that had limited choices.
     
  4. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    So, those stats prove that the actual SAT's and GPA's for our athletes are the 3rd lowest in the Big 12. How does that not correlate to having lower academic admission standards than our conference peers?

    I understand that a minimum standard would not be reflected by the actuals, but the actuals should trend higher than the minimums due to the performance of those that over-qualified. But, how could the actuals average lower than the minimum?

    Can we continue to claim that our admission requirements are much higher than others in the Big 12 with stats like that?

    Maybe I need more help in understanding the reported data.
     
  5. BuffaloChuck

    BuffaloChuck Member

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    The "CU has high admission standards" argument is often floated but never succeeds. Not even on a campus-wide comparison to other Big 12 schools, much less nationally.

    But it sounds great! Let's keep using that as our excuse for Coach Hawkins' lack of success. That will surely help.
     
  6. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    GB and Mac have talked about it too. Kiesau made a comment about it being more difficult than at Cal. There's something there.
     
  7. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    Yeah, there is some sort of disconnect there. I would really be interested in the actual statistics. One thing about that study cited in the opening post is that they were taken from a report schools file every ten years. That is quite a spread. The way I kind of understand it is that CU implemented it's recruiting reforms around '04. So I'm not so sure that the "study" cited accurately depicts what is going on in 2010. I'd love to know the "real" numbers. Because I cannot believe we have the third lowest standards in the Big XII.
     
  8. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That is what bothers me the most is that the report occurred before the changes by the admin, but we won't know the "new" stats until 2012, based on the 10-year gap.

    I was hoping that someone on the board had some other sources to prove that the standards have truly been raised, rather than just ambivalent comments by the coaches.
     
  9. buffedup

    buffedup Cooler than a Popsicle Stand. Club Member

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    Want proof? Andre Simmons is just one of numerous JUCO's that public knowledge has stated would be admitted to KSU but not CU. I also remember in the last 5 years or so, a highly rated WR that signed with CU but couldn't be admitted so went to aTm instead. Sounds pretty convincing to me.
     
  10. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    One other thing. At least 50% of CU students are from out of state. I'd bet they get more leeway than in state students do as far as GPA and test scores.
     
  11. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    Really? I know that people from out of state that try to go to UC or CSU schools need to have higher GPAs and I'd assume better test scores as well. CU really puts that much extra effort into getting kids from out of state to go there?
     
  12. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    Mmmm, maybe not. I was just assuming rich kids had an easier time getting in. Because most out of state students ARE rich.
     
  13. The Guest

    The Guest Guest

    I'll try to find this factually, rather than just off the top of my head, but there are two particular areas where I believe CU's standards are more demanding in regards to student-athlete admissions:

    1. While a percentage CU students are permitted to enter with substandard qualifications, athletes cannot represent a disproportionate number of those exceptions. That's been discussed a lot on this board. Cal is the obvious example where student-athletes compromise a disproportionate number of a school's exceptions, I don't know where the the other Big XII schools stand on the issue.

    2. I remember reading something conclusive that CU's JUCO transfer standards are higher the Big XII minimum. Only Texas and CU offer that distinction, if I remember correctly.
     
  14. BuffaloChuck

    BuffaloChuck Member

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    Of course, your two examples ARE convincing that CU could be the 3rd from the bottom, therefore - "two schools lower took 'em" is the logical retort.

    Like you said, "sounds convincing" but it still is not anywhere near the whole picture. In the 2006 Big 12 Anniv report, the acad standards were amazingly similar and, different 'schools' in universities have their own requirements as well. The base admission standards can also change yearly due to populations - over- or under-. Some schools court Merit Scholars, some give away free-passes for valedictorians so when I hear "Our school boasts the largest number of Merit Scholars and Valedictorians", that usually indicates "more freebies and lower cost-of-living" than vast numbers of Nobel laureates teaching undergrad English.

    Every school and program loses some to academic casualties, but "stupidity" is hardly the reason in any of those. Criminal behavior and plain ol' homesickness, feeling out of place, etc - the emotional baggage heaped onto students are far larger factors in academic failings than low IQ. It's disappointing to see 'criminal behavior' has become a larger factor among college terminations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  15. SD Buff

    SD Buff Club Member Club Member

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    JUCO admission standards.

    1. CU does not transfer credits that do not apply towards a major at CU. CU does not have a general studies major, a P.E. major, etc. This really hurts.

    2. CU does not transfer anything below a C. Other schools will transfer Ds.

    Both those standards reduce our JUCO "pool" significantly. Where as KjSU can admit a kid who loaded up on PE and Basket Weaving, CU can't touch them.

    For HS admissions.

    If a student athlete does not meet the minimum CCHE admissions index (103) then they need to be admitted through the special talent window.
    I can't find the link, but in 2005 I believe, only 6 scholarship athletes were admitted through the window for ALL sports. Did not specify how many were for football, but thats way too low even if ALL of them were for football.

    Link for the CCHE index. 103 is the min.

    http://www.collegeincolorado.com/Images/Colorado/pdfs/Plan/admission_eligibility.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
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  16. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    Yeah I see your point, business wise it's a good thing for the school I guess, I'd just hope they wouldn't go out of their way to make room for out of state rich kids while forcing local kids to work all that much harder. That'd be pretty weak imo.
     
  17. AustinTxBuff

    AustinTxBuff Well-Known Member

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    I thought in the mid-90s a law was passed that at least 50% of students at CU had to be in-state. Has this been repealed?

    Not that this has anything to do with the athletics admissions...
     
  18. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I am pretty sure it is 50/50 or close. I was at orientation for my kid a year and a half back and they asked for a show of hands as to who is from out of state. At least half the parents raised there hands. The guy doing the orientation said that half of CU's incoming freshmen were from out of state.
     
  19. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

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    There is no such law. CCHE had set guaranteed acceptance standards for colorado HS graduates, meaning that if a HS graduated from a Colorado HS they were guaranteed admittance if they met the standards. These were removed 3 years ago after lobbying by CU.
     
  20. OKCBuff

    OKCBuff Well-Known Member

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    Most of these D-I players are nothing more than hired hands and wouldn't be in school without athletic talent. Might as well make exceptions based on that. I'm not saying go KJSU here, but when it comes to athletes, if you have a big-time one interested in you and can't spell their name on the ACT form, well... make an exception. ;)

    Guess I'm kind of jaded on how a lot of schools handle their "student" athletes.
     
  21. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    IIRC, only KSU and Texas Tech allow "D" transfers for JUCO athletes. And, IIRC, only KSU allows PE credits to transfer for JUCO athletes.
     
  22. SD Buff

    SD Buff Club Member Club Member

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    Don't believe this to be correct. KU has the exact same standards as KjSU, its Kansas "State" law. kNU has a PE Major, why wouldn't they transfer credits that apply towards their degree? Etc.

    Think everyone in the conference is the same with JUCO's other than CU. Used to think UT was different as well, but as it turns out they just don't take JUCO's b/c they don't need them.
     
  23. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks SD that is the way things seem to fit.

    So, in truth, the issue isn't about "higher admission standards", but rather "higher TRANSFER standards" when it applies to JUCO's; and tougher course choices for incoming students (not tougher enrollment standards).

    This argument about higher enrollment standards at CU doesn't hold water unless we are talking about JUCO transfers. Why then does Hawk (and GB before him) complain so damn much about it?
     
  24. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I think the complaint is in the allowance of partial qualifiers throught the academic "window." We used to not have much of a limit. Now, we can only get one or two in a year thanks to Betsy Hoffman and that regime. The post scandal restrictions were put in place by her. I don't know why GB would complain, though, because he helped implement the new recruiting standards. Probably trying to save his job.

    Now, everything I just said is my understanding of it. Not necessarily the overall facts. And that is what I'd like to see clarified. What is CU's stance on partial qualifers and how does it compare with other schools?
     
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  25. AustinTxBuff

    AustinTxBuff Well-Known Member

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    The high school students have to meet the CCHE standards as pointed out by SD. If those are higher than the NCAA standards, then our requirements are higher than anybody else in the Big 12, since they use NCAA standards, not their school's or state.

    You could argue that CSU has tougher standards too, but their CCHE standards are lower than CU's, so even if they have standards higher than NCAA, they are by default not as high as CU's.
     
  26. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

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    The academic window target set by CCHE is 18% of the incoming freshmen can be below the standards. IT IS A TARGET. The athletic department does not have its own target percentage - each school at the university works with the admissions office (School of Engineering, School of Business, etc.) on accepting students. Things like athletics are seen as a reason to accept someone who does not meet the target if the admissions and the school believe the applicant can be successful at CU.

    18% of the Freshmen each year is about 1100 students admitted outside the window. The number of 6 for athletes is incorrect.
     
  27. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    First, I think the window percentage has dropped to 10%. That is according to the University of Colorado (The academic window). My understanding is that athletics can only admit the same percentage. Therefore, if we give out 20 scholarships in football, only 2 can be admitted through the "window." This was not the case prior to the restrictions implemented after "the scandal."
     
  28. SD Buff

    SD Buff Club Member Club Member

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  29. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    I remember seeing an article a few years back that addressed this. KSU and TT were the two most lenient schools in regards to allowing "D" grades and PE credits to transfer. One school allowed both, the other allowed one or the other.
     

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