AllBuffs | Unofficial fan site for the University of Colorado at Boulder Athletics programs
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Prime Time. Prime Time. Its a new era for Colorado football. Consider signing up for a club membership! For $20/year, you can get access to all the special features at Allbuffs, including club member only forums, dark mode, avatars and best of all no ads ! But seriously, please sign up so that we can pay the bills. No one earns money here, and we can use your $20 to keep this hellhole running. You can sign up for a club membership by navigating to your account in the upper right and clicking on "Account Upgrades". Make it happen!
CU's Rightful Place in College Football
- Thread starter Buffnik
- Start date
This is a significant issue. The past many years of administrative neglect have left a disconnect between CU athletics and the majority of the state of Colorado. If the plan is to simply survive off alums they are bound to fail.
In some places the flagship university is by default the focus of the population. If you want to be a football fan in Nebraska, Alabama, Oklahoma, etc. then the state universities are the highest level available and carry the pride and identity of the population.
In Colorado people have alternatives, the Broncos and the home state schools of the transplants primary among these.
Even with those alternatives there are plenty of people who would be more than willing to support CU if given a reason to do so. It is up to the administration to break down barriers and make that viable.
We need outreaches like M2 has already started. When a HS player comes home from school and tells mom and dad that CU coaches were visiting school that day it makes an impact. When these kids and kids from all sports go to Boulder for a HS sports camp it makes a difference.
In a lot of cases it is simply getting to word out and helping people to identify with CU as the states premier program.
BnG is correct in that this has to be a school wide effort. They have focused so much on getting out of state students (and their tuition dollars) that it seems that the better HS students in Colorado don't have the level of enthusiasm to go to CU that would be normal. We will continue to need the out of state money but it makes long time differences when quality HS chemistry students, business students, math students, etc. aspire to go to CU instead of out of state.
BlackNGold
Club Member
Pretending is your word not mine. That is not what I am saying. I believe it is the wrong approach to immediately disparage the success of your peers. I think that is the approach of too many Buff fans. The better approach is to take care of the problems in our own house instead of predicting eventual demise of others.
By the way you are way off base on Mora...He has said his dream job was UW where he went to school. When the job opened up he decided to stay at UCLA. I think he is there for awhile. Mora is a sharp guy who turned down HC jobs in the NFL (Washington) to stay as an assistant. Mora's comfortable where he is at and will stay at UCLA for awhile. Mora has not said he wants to coach in the NFL, he said the opposite.
buffs04
Well-Known Member
CU will never have the full support of the state of Colorado in athletics or in anything else because the Coloradans are bizzarely and heavily invested in identity politics with respect to the "Boulder vs. the rest of us" mentality that's so prevalent here. They think that by sending their kids to a second-tier education at CSU and avoiding support of CU athletics that they're getting back at the liberal elitist snobs and rich-kid Californians. That's not going to change. These are the people who are huge Broncos fans and support CSU when they have a decent year once per decade but don't care for CU at all.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
CU could take some steps to connect itself more to Colorado. Nik had some nice suggestions recently that would certainly be positive steps. Boulder's reputation won't change, not for our generation anyway, but it doesn't have to be this polarized. A progressive college town being quite different from the rest of a state's environs is hardly unique to Boulder/Colorado.
There are certainly those out there that will never connect to CU no matter what the school does because of the pre-programmed ideas they have about who they are and what CU is.
At the same time CU can reach out to and develop the support of individuals in every part of the state. The closed minded will not change, just try to discuss academic standing with a fusker.
What CU can do is develop an interest and even a sense of ownership in the school and it's teams. Recruit some outstanding students from throughout the state and then do things to get them and keep them recognized as CU scholars in their home towns. Give the younger kids in the community something to aspire to and the adults something to take a sense of community pride in. "That Smith kid got a scholarship to go study engineering at CU in Boulder and is doing well. They had his/her picture in the paper next to that Nobel prize guy."
CU is always going to have to deal with Colorado's allegiance to the Broncos. There will also always be those who are loyal to other schools but CU can do a better job of cultivating the support of many who they have ignored over the past couple decades.
The image of CU as an elitist institution located in a world separated from the rest of the state is in large part the result of CU's failure to take simple steps to dissuade that image. Bring the state into CU and take CU out to the state and over time the image will change.
There will be those who are resentful because the see CU as being unatainable to them or as representing a different world than they live in but plenty of other universities are not representative of the political and cultural norms of their states and still enjoy plenty of support.
Deleted member 807
Guest
I agree that CU doesn't have the full support of Joe Sixpack Coloradan. I suspect identity politics is more of a symptom than the disease.
The root causes for the identity politics include:
1) Taxation without (direct) representation. Every tax payer in the state contributes some part of their income to CU, but the school is only accessible to a small percentage of HS graduates. Some are on board with the value of higher ed that serves the greater good, many don't share that value.
2) 43% of freshmen from out of state. Admissions/funding realities exacerbate the need to admit a high percentage of out of state students, making CU a magnet for well-to-do kids from Cal, Chicago, Texas, east coast, and other regions. These are the kids that put the ski in Ski U. Each of these OOS kids is taking the seat of a Colorado HS graduate who is going to college somewhere else (like Metro, CSU, UNC, Regis...). This group is out of tune with the 8-5 metro workforce who shop at Costco and eat at Subway.
3) From program to program, there is a some degree of disconnect between degrees offered by CU and the local job market. For example, aerospace feeds locally into Ball, Martin Marietta, Dish...but also draws to OOS companies and agencies like NASA, Boeing, ect. The business, law, and medical programs are more plugged in locally than the physics, engineering, and the arts. Big local industries that drive the Colorado economy like agricultural, mining, tourism, hospitality, retail, public schools, religion, not-for-profit, and various service industries are underserved by CU, but serve as the bread and butter for other colleges in the area.
4) Brain drain. CU brags about a history of astronauts and Peace Corp, both drain talent from the state and pull CU grads to far corners of the globe...and beyond. The people CU draws in tend to be affluent and use Boulder as a playground for the wealthy and eccentric. CU is not necessarily an engine that cranks out philanthropic multi-millionaires who give back to CU in the way that Phil Knight or Boone Pickens have done. The Monforts, Anshutz, and Boettchers just haven't adopted CU Boulder as a pet project.
5) Conservative versus liberal values. Boulder does not exemplify conservative middle class and religious values. The type of deeply Christian family with a heritage of serving in the armed forces and driving pickup trucks may be put off by hippy, pot smoking, anti-establishment, anti-gun, yoga practicing, eastern religious zealots who drive Subarus and Audis.
Strategy outline to connect CU more closely with the state.
1) offer business programs with focus in Colorado tourism and hospitality. (CU graduates should have an alumni network with internships into Vail, Aspen, Telluride, Summit, and Steamboat, and come away with high level skills in real estate, front desk/reservations, data processing, marketing, transportation, culinary, high country construction/project management, Forest service permitting, ect.)
2) Re-do higher ed statutes that accelerate CU's ability to offer petroleum engineering programs in direct competition with School of Mines. Goal for CU mech/petroleum departments to graduate students with similar salary figures as mines.
3) Offer higher degree programs that put more CU masters and PhD degrees in front of Colorado elementary and high school students. Goal for every school in the state to have 10% of faculty with advanced CU degree. (School administration, math/science/physics, athletic directors and coaches should want to go through CU Boulder for graduate degrees to enhance their careers.
4) Add a mens and women's shooting/rifle team and make a statement about the second amendment. Goal for CU to produce more Olympians in shooting than any other P12 school. Add Olympic ice for the pursuit of winter sports like skating, curling, and hockey. Also reinforce Boulder as distance running, cycling, and mountaineering community mecca. Olympic ties to Boulder is a good thing.
5) Establish closer ties to military and tailor degree programs to more closely align with nation's defense needs. Examples...cyber security, logistics, leadership, communications, special forces development. Special forces coming out of Boulder should be recognized, honored, and developed.
6) Boulder community...transportation plan (more parking garages, US36 bypass through town, metro rail service to campus). Keep growing and supporting events with high metro profile, like Bolder Boulder, road and mountain cycling events, build a velodrome, keep and grow arts festivals, symposiums, concerts, adult lecture series.
7) Get that herd of Buffalo roaming the green-space around the city. Offer a program to address bringing animals back from extinction. CU grads should be all over discovery channel being seen saving tigers, elephants, spotted owls, and polar bears. There should be more subjects connecting animal lovers to Boulder than just Ralphie.
8) Jump all over hydroponics, genetically modified food, and organic food production. Give Boulderites a chance to feed the world, buy and sell local, and manage sustainable food supplies from their community gardens, rooftops, backyards, and basements.
Last edited by a moderator:
Skiddy,
A lot of what you propose is both doable and would have the kind of results we need.
Make CU the source of talented leaders for Colorado high schools in STEM subjects. This would go a long way to connecting CU to the communities and also in giving CU an inside track to getting many more of the best students from in-state interested in going to CU instead of other schools including out of state schools.
Little piece of information for people, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The students who are outstanding in HS more often than not have parents who are higher achievers as well, people who are at least above average in their career fields and often have above average influence. Many of these people may have allegiances to the schools they went to but more often than not parents tend to become supporters on some level of the schools their kids end up going to, especially if their is some connected status associated with their kids going there.
Your #1 is also critical. Business is the driving force in the economy, establishing strong connections between Boulder and the Colorado business community including making CU to an extent a go to option for business talent will go a long way towards building connections and changing perceptions as well.
The rest of what you posted makes sense as well.
What is important to understand is that virtually every college or university this side of BYU has it's hippy, pot-smoking, leftist, anti-establishment element including on the faculty. We can laugh and joke about it but CU's isn't much if any bigger than lots of other schools including CSU and many of our PAC conference co-members.
What is the problem is that we have allowed and even embraced allowing that element to drive much of the perception of the school to the outside world instead of the great majority of the school which does not fit that profile.
A lot of what you propose is both doable and would have the kind of results we need.
Make CU the source of talented leaders for Colorado high schools in STEM subjects. This would go a long way to connecting CU to the communities and also in giving CU an inside track to getting many more of the best students from in-state interested in going to CU instead of other schools including out of state schools.
Little piece of information for people, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. The students who are outstanding in HS more often than not have parents who are higher achievers as well, people who are at least above average in their career fields and often have above average influence. Many of these people may have allegiances to the schools they went to but more often than not parents tend to become supporters on some level of the schools their kids end up going to, especially if their is some connected status associated with their kids going there.
Your #1 is also critical. Business is the driving force in the economy, establishing strong connections between Boulder and the Colorado business community including making CU to an extent a go to option for business talent will go a long way towards building connections and changing perceptions as well.
The rest of what you posted makes sense as well.
What is important to understand is that virtually every college or university this side of BYU has it's hippy, pot-smoking, leftist, anti-establishment element including on the faculty. We can laugh and joke about it but CU's isn't much if any bigger than lots of other schools including CSU and many of our PAC conference co-members.
What is the problem is that we have allowed and even embraced allowing that element to drive much of the perception of the school to the outside world instead of the great majority of the school which does not fit that profile.
1) CU being on the regent system has representation from the entire state. As the flagship, the entrance requirements should be higher. It is not inaccessible as every Colorado high school graduate that meets the requirements is guaranteed admission.
2) The ratio has always been around 60% instate. One reason is to draw in people to the state as well as get those tuition dollars.
3) Colorado would not have Ball, Lockheed, Boeing, Dish, etc. in the state if not for the programs at CU, the fact that those industries have opportunities in other states is not a bad thing. Those graduates are ambassadors for the university and will eventually send their kids back, paying those non-resident tuition rates. I happened to talk to the folks from the JPL at Cal Tech during the October career fair and they said that they love to recruit CU for interns and full-time jobs because we graduate a lot of good engineers. They actually hire more CU grads than Cal Tech grads. Colorado's university system is designed around centers of excellence, Ft. Fun has agriculture and veterinary medicine, Mines has petroleum and mining, NorCo has teaching and education. CU has medicine, law, aerospace. The other schools fill the community education needs.
4) Brain drain happens whenever you have new industries pop-up in other states. This is a reflection of the states priorities in attracting new industries. If the state focuses on bringing an industry to the state those graduates would have a reason to stay.
5) Austin is pretty liberal compared to the rest of Texas and Lawrence to Kansas, large flagship universities attract that sort of environment. It is more perception than reality and really is more an issue with the city and not the university.
1) I agree with this.
2) Don't agree. Mines is well respected in the industry and to drain resources to establish a competing program at CU would be pointless. What should be done however is to open up both campuses to allow taking classes at either university to count toward a degree at the other. I.E. say CU student in Geology wants to pick up a second major in petroleum engineering, should be able to take classes at both institutions and earn that double degree. Tuition would be collected at the primary university. Mines students in Mechanical Engineering may want to pursue a minor in Aerospace at CU or a business degree at CU. The proximity of the campuses to each other makes this kind of arrangement ideal.
3) When I was in high school, I didn't know many teachers that had advanced degrees, mainly because they don't advertise it. The one that did mention it I remember him saying that he had his masters and over 60 credit hours beyond that in the languages, Spanish and German, but he didn't see the value in getting the PhD because the requirements to get it wouldn't have added value to his teaching. If the university really wanted to put the University in front of students in the classroom, they would offer roaming classes, seminars, for teachers during the summer and sponsor summer camps for students that focus on STEM or the arts.
4) Good idea, but not going to happen. UCCS would be a better location due to the proximity of facilities. Would like to see the winter sports emphasis, could use the ice in Broomfield for competition, rec center for practice.
5) ASEN, MechE, EE, ECE, CompSci, Languages, PoliSci are the degrees that produce graduates for those military jobs. ROTC is still active on campus. Bringing in a professor or two to teach specific classes or establishing a graduate program within one of those degrees or a graduate level interdisciplinary program might be what is really needed.
6) Agree
7) Yes, should be visible. Only one problem is that they roam and need a large tract of land. I don't know if the open space in Boulder County could support a small herd.
8) Should be more emphasis in environmental studies for sustainability. The more ag related topics/research would fit better at Ft. Fun.
Deleted member 807
Guest
Wow. I appreciate your reaction to my post. Thanks.
Trying to address 5 root causes and 8 strategy points on a message board in the era of tl;dr is a difficult maneuver.
I want to revisit the petroleum engineering / mines topic.
First of all, your proposal of cross-institutional access between Mines and CU is solid. Implementation of this suggestion adds to the value and efficient use of resources from both public schools.
Over time, if the exchange were successful, the next step would be to evaluate and justify maintaining redundant admissions and other back office systems.
The Colorado higher ed charter was created before the internet and the global economy we live in today. It's my belief that the state's higher ed charter should be re-evaluated to take into consideration the benefits of instantaneous communications, big data, and global economic realities that the state and region are facing over the next 25-50 years. There are efficiencies to be had. There are new issues to tackle. Some of the segmentation of academic disciplines is legitimate. Others are arcane and wasteful.
Energy is atop the list to revisit tx. The framework by which Colorado educates energy professionals is different than how it's done in other states. Texas leads the nation in schools with the number of top 10 energy programs. The Texas public higher ed charter makes room for several top programs including UT, A&M, U Houston, and Texas Tech. Neighboring Oklahoma and U of Tulsa also compete in-state in energy.
It is inexcusable that any Colorado aspiring petroleum professional who can't get into mines has to study the subject in Laramie, or Norman, or even further away. Colorado law-makers in office back when Colorado Governor Vanderhoof and Dick Lamm were in office didn't have the foresight to anticipate changes happening during the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, W, and Obama administrations. It's okay to adjust and adapt to the seismic changes that have transpired over the past three decades. If you don't like change, how do you feel about irrelevance?
Competition in the energy sector is a good thing.
What we have today is a carbon based institution in Golden that is tops, but does little to ease concerns from Colorado communities about the environmental impacts of fracking. And we have alternative energy research going on in Boulder that vilifies carbon-based energy. This carbon -v- alternative debate does little to improve the stature and reputation of CU. The current arrangement detracts from CU's rightful place in the state. (And limits its list of potential high dollar donors like Benson and Solich)
The concept of University is to bring together ideas, not restrict dialog due to artificial statutory provisions.
We don't have that healthy competition today. Both mines and CU can compete in petroleum, just like Stanford and Cal compete in computer science. The cross pollination of nearby schools can be healthy when attracting professors and grants to the region, while not diminishing the stature of Mines.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think we are both in the same line of thinking. Colorado as a state needs to expand on its opportunities in energy education/research including petro and renewables. From a dollars standpoint it makes sense to me to have Mines and CU be partners. I don't know if it is still this way, but when I went to school the admission requirements for CU Engineering and Mines were exactly the same and tuition for in-state was about the same, so if you couldn't get into Mines, you weren't getting into CU engineering either. People chose UWyo because it was cheaper out of state than Mines or CU was in state back in the day. With NREL located between the two campuses there is no reason that both schools shouldn't be working together. The first step though would to bring Mines under the regent system with one governance. I could see a situation where CU offers an energy or petroleum engineering degree but I don't think we have the population base to support two full departments specific just to petroleum. However if both schools joined to form an energy engineering consortium to combine classes and faculty to offer a number of options, you could attract more students, allow the students to pick the campus that they are most comfortable with, and create a world class research environment.
/endthread
Deleted member 807
Guest
@aero
From my perspective, the golden age of aeronautical engineering was from WWII through the end of the Cold War.
during this period, aircraft evolved from props to the SR71. A rocket program was born opening an era of space exploration that spanned from Soyuz to Voyager, to a thousands upon thousands of satellites that bring us TV, monitor our weather, give pinpoint GPS coordinates, and provide imagery that helps us understand our planet. Heroes like Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong provided inspiration to millions of school kids.
Fast forward to 2014. The introduction of the 787 is a ho-hum news event for most of us. We have no shuttle program. Space exploration belongs to the Russians and to entrepreneurs, while NASA fights for every tax dollar to send unmanned robots to the surface of mars. I don't know who the most famous active astronaut is.
Has CU's emphasis on Aerospace run it's course? What is the future for CU Aerospace engineers? Are there enough jobs for them? Or is this now a minor and declining niche in a world that needs a supply of other types of engineers?
From my perspective, the golden age of aeronautical engineering was from WWII through the end of the Cold War.
during this period, aircraft evolved from props to the SR71. A rocket program was born opening an era of space exploration that spanned from Soyuz to Voyager, to a thousands upon thousands of satellites that bring us TV, monitor our weather, give pinpoint GPS coordinates, and provide imagery that helps us understand our planet. Heroes like Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong provided inspiration to millions of school kids.
Fast forward to 2014. The introduction of the 787 is a ho-hum news event for most of us. We have no shuttle program. Space exploration belongs to the Russians and to entrepreneurs, while NASA fights for every tax dollar to send unmanned robots to the surface of mars. I don't know who the most famous active astronaut is.
Has CU's emphasis on Aerospace run it's course? What is the future for CU Aerospace engineers? Are there enough jobs for them? Or is this now a minor and declining niche in a world that needs a supply of other types of engineers?
Deleted member 807
Guest
Mods, cut and move to the island.
Nobody on the web has time for this nonsense.
PM me if you want war and peace.
In regards to the Petroleum Engineering and alternative energy engineering question the synergy between Cal and Stanford was mentioned. I think a better comparison might be Cal and Cal Tech with one school being a large, comprehensive university with a high public profile and the other a small, highly specialized school that is elite in one field. Of course CalTech and Stanford are both private schools and Mines is a public institution but I think the comparison is valid.
Mines and CU have resources that if shared could make each a better school and be better for the state.
Mines and CU have resources that if shared could make each a better school and be better for the state.
I will keep it short as some don't seem to like our interesting discussion. ASEN is evolving into a more integrated systems approach depending on the tract you take. New research is focused more on autonomous systems, more efficient propulsion systems, micro and nano vehicles/sats, and general lighter, faster, stronger vehicles for space and air.
The thing is, winning is the only thing that will rally the whole fan base and bring on the bandwagon. Everyone likes a winner.
But the last time CU had things rolling on the scoreboard, it didn't capitalize on the opportunity by building a donor base, creating a stadium environment that appealed to the casual fan, re-enforcing the brand with advertising and PR, improving the training facilities, etc., etc.
HCMM needs to win.
The rest of CU needs to have learned that lesson from the past.
Basically we need to slip some cannibutter into the brunches of all the opposing teams on gameday
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
BlackNGold
Club Member
Does CU really want to be "The University" within the state? I see more and more kids not even considering CU - there is a disconnect somewhere. I noticed the girl from Niwot (Elise Cranny) who set the state record in track for 3200 M is going to Stanford (she must live 20 minutes from CU) and the girl from Denver (Dior Hall) that set the record in the hurdles is going to USC. So we have two top athletes going to other PAC 12 schools. Both are known to be very good students. When I review the bios of the athletes of the week, CU hardly ever get a mention as their college choice.
Track is a hard thing to judge though because CU doesn't give full-ride scholarships. Melody Fairchild grew up in Boulder & went to Oregon for college to run track - sometimes kids just want to leave the state. Athletic scholarships are one place where I'm not going to be quick to judge why someone is choosing another Pac-12 school - especially when it comes to a sport in which we do not offer 100% tuition like our Pac-12 brethren can.
Not all of you.
The discus thrower from Silver Creek (Valerie Allman) is now an all american at Stanford, too.
It's hard... well, impossible, really... to fault a kid who is a track athlete who goes to Stanford instead of CU. I hate that reality, but it's the truth. Who in their right mind would turn down a full ride at Stanford?
Last edited:
It was palpable enough that a rube from the swamp could discern it. But yes, I get your point.
I would. That place seems very dull to me. There are a lot of people who would rather go somewhere fun for college. And you can get a great education while developing a great network at other schools... especially when we're talking about other Pac-12 universities.