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daily camera is all over the pac 10 thing today...

UrbanaBuff said:
Buffnik, you bring up a good point about a rotating basketball CCG. I wonder if there is precedence. In the ~15-year history of the Big Ten Tournament, they have only held it in Indianpolis & Chicago, with Indy getting a lion's share of those. This despite 4 other NBA arenas within the conference footprint. I know economics play into this, but I think a large part is simply being geographically centered for all teams, thus minimizing any unfair travel/fan advantages the best they can.

With all this said, Vegas might be an ideal stationary spot for the new Pac 12 hoops CCG, as long as its arena is large enough to hold about 20,000 (which I doubt).
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Indy makes some sense for the Big Televen, since Indiana and Purdue are both in-state and it's central for other schools. (Of course, Chicago and Detroit could make an equal claim to two in-state schools and at least a somewhat central location...)

I like the Vegas idea for the Pac-12, but I'm not sure what the capacity for the Thomas & Mack Center is... I could also see them going to some rotation of Staples and the arenas in SF, Portland, Phoenix and possibly SLC and Denver eventually. Seattle too, although I thought arena issues were a big reason the Sonics left up there...
 
Junction said:
Seattle too, although I thought arena issues were a big reason the Sonics left up there...
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Kind of off-topic, but that was a big red herring from the conglomorate that owned the Sonics and wanted to move to OKC. Key Arena was completely re-built in 1995 (I think) and and David Stern called Key Arena the quintessential NBA arena with the best sightlines in the NBA or some such afterward. How many arenas do you know that are completely obsolete 15 years after being built? Don't look now, but the Pepsi Center is 11 this year, and how obsolete does it seem? The ownership group demanded a $500M arena (built with mostly taxpayer money) or a $200M renovation to Key Arena or they were going to split.
 
Lt.Col.FrankSlade said:
And it is the Big 12's fault that CU isn't on TV?

CU sucks - that's why it isn't on TV. So rather than manning up and demanding improvement as a football program, CU is ready to tuck tail and run to a conference where they can continue to be sh!tty and get paid for doing so.
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:yeahthat:


CU athletic department I'm sure loves these articles from Ringo and Woelk.. It gets people off reality and into fantasy.. You know the reality that CU football sucks and there is no plan in improving the program other than keeping an incompetent coach around..
 
JimmyBuff said:
:yeahthat:


CU athletic department I'm sure loves these articles from Ringo and Woelk.. It gets people off reality and into fantasy.. You know the reality that CU football sucks and there is no plan in improving the program other than keeping an incompetent coach around..
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i think everyone in this thread knows we suck a fat one...
 
valdezj said:
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/03/08/1799102_tv-is-key-to-future-for-big-12.html
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We had to know this was coming. The Big 12 is not going to stand by and watch people defect. It is going to try to find a more financially lucrative situation. I think in the end, the dollars CU would get from the Pac 12 would not be appreciably greater than a Big 12 renegotiated contract.

The west coast alumni connection is what makes the move. Here's the quote from the original article:

CU is generally fortunate to have 1,000 fans at a Big 12 road game. According to CU`s alumni statistics provided to the Camera, Colorado has a total of 4,523 alumni in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma combined. The largest numbers of alumni in another Big 12 state are the 6,244 in Texas.

By comparison, there are 23,137 CU alumni in California, 3,755 in Arizona, 2,983 in Oregon and 5,113 in Washington. That`s 34,988 alumni in Pac-10 conference territory compared to 10,767 in Big 12 country. Another 1,200 CU alums live in Utah.
 
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Buttermaker said:
We had to know this was coming. The Big 12 is not going to stand by and watch people defect. It is going to try to find a more financially lucrative situation. I think in the end, the dollars CU would get from the Pac 12 would not be appreciably greater than a Big 12 renegotiated contract.

The west coast alumni connection is what makes the move. Here's the quote from the original article:

CU is generally fortunate to have 1,000 fans at a Big 12 road game. According to CU`s alumni statistics provided to the Camera, Colorado has a total of 4,523 alumni in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma combined. The largest numbers of alumni in another Big 12 state are the 6,244 in Texas.

By comparison, there are 23,137 CU alumni in California, 3,755 in Arizona, 2,983 in Oregon and 5,113 in Washington. That`s 34,988 alumni in Pac-10 conference territory compared to 10,767 in Big 12 country. Another 1,200 CU alums live in Utah.
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The inverse of those numbers would also be interesting to know. How do the Pac10 alumni numbers stack up against the Big12? Do the Pac10 fans travel as well as CU's current conference rivals? Would playing in the Pac10 equate to more ticket sales in Folsom?

The Nebraska, OU, OSU, A&M and UT fan bases show up in large numbers, contributing to the CUAD's bottom line. This makes since because CU is considered a tourist destination with it's proximity to the mountains. That mistique would be lost in the 12Pac, as mountains and scenery are commonplace out west.

It's possible that CU alum might boost ticket sales in the stadiums of Pac10 opponents while killing the numbers of visitors who come to Folsom.
 
JimmyBuff said:
Yeah well it doesn't seem CU has gotten that memo..


The Pac 10 talk bores me.. :huh:
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Blah. Repeat. Blah. Repeat.

Ironically, Jimmy is guilty of the same strategy as DH: just keep repeating and hope for a different result.
 
Buttermaker said:
CU is generally fortunate to have 1,000 fans at a Big 12 road game. According to CU`s alumni statistics provided to the Camera, Colorado has a total of 4,523 alumni in Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma combined. The largest numbers of alumni in another Big 12 state are the 6,244 in Texas.

By comparison, there are 23,137 CU alumni in California, 3,755 in Arizona, 2,983 in Oregon and 5,113 in Washington. That`s 34,988 alumni in Pac-10 conference territory compared to 10,767 in Big 12 country. Another 1,200 CU alums live in Utah.
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Isn't that an indictment on CU failing to sell itself to the Big 12 states? I'm actually quite surprised we don't have more alums in the state of Texas..
 
JimmyBuff said:
Isn't that an indictment on CU failing to sell itself to the Big 12 states? I'm actually quite surprised we don't have more alums in the state of Texas..
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I think the biggest issue is that Western scholarship exchange. Someone posted the details once before and I remember it being presented in HS in the 90's. I can't recall if any other Big 12 states were on that list of schools, but I could be wrong.
 
JimmyBuff said:
Isn't that an indictment on CU failing to sell itself to the Big 12 states? I'm actually quite surprised we don't have more alums in the state of Texas..
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No. It's an indictment of the rest of the states that populate the Big 12 footprint. They suck.
 
JimmyBuff said:
Yeah well it doesn't seem CU has gotten that memo..


The Pac 10 talk bores me.. :huh:
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You're right, soooo boring. Let's talk about how bad our coaches and administration suck, we haven't exhausted that discussion yet and it's much more interesting.

I think Hawk is the best coach in the Big 12, what do you think Jimmy?
 
ScottyBuff said:
I think the biggest issue is that Western scholarship exchange. Someone posted the details once before and I remember it being presented in HS in the 90's. I can't recall if any other Big 12 states were on that list of schools, but I could be wrong.
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The University of Colorado opted out from tuition exchange.
Kids from Texas, AZ, HI, CA, IL and Stockholm all pay full fare out of state tuition.
 
ScottyBuff said:
well there goes that theory! :smile2:
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When I saw that other thread about reciprocal in-state tuition arrangements, I was pretty excited.
But, alas, an employee at the university who deals with admissions set me straight.

CU depends on that OOS $$$ to fund it's operations, so CU doesn't honor that agreement. I wonder which higher ed institutions do?
 
CU has a very inefficient administration and it's admins are used to the extra out of state cheese. but, bigger picture, if CU honored other states OOS tuition, total enrollment would be 76,000. I oversimplify to make a point.
 
Mick Ronson said:
CU has a very inefficient administration and it's admins are used to the extra out of state cheese. but, bigger picture, if CU honored other states OOS tuition, total enrollment would be 76,000. I oversimplify to make a point.
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The issue with that, of course, is that the expense per student is higher than the instate tuition.
The OOS kids are subsidizing the instate kids.

It wouldn't make alot of sense to double the enrollement to increase revenue by 50% only to double the expense.
 
Skidmark said:
The issue with that, of course, is that the expense per student is higher than the instate tuition.
The OOS kids are subsidizing the instate kids.

It wouldn't make alot of sense to double the enrollement to increase revenue by 50% only to double the expense.
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that's my point. that the OOS subsidizes the in-state and the operational costs of the university. and the issue of inefficiency is apparent when CU has this unusually large OOS student population which would normally suggest a tidy revenue that would prevent CU from being one of the first universities nationally to nearly always be in financial crisis when the first signs of economic downturn become real. the opposite is true. so, to the original point: it would make no sense for CU to give away OOS revenue it apparently needs to stay operating.

i also, from personal experience, question the administration's priorities at time and tend to think they over-value their own existence as a protected and well-remunerated employment class when cuts need to made. those cuts tend to be made in day to day operations of Norlin or academic departmental budgets. or: dump a lot of money into Norlin (where job cuts have been significant in the last decade)....to basically build a "cool, new wireless coffee shop". style and appearance over funding substance or actual educational infra-structure.

76,000 just means that if i live in Utah or Nevada or Oklahoma if i can go to CU and be in Boulder for 4 years for the same cost (more or less) as the in-state school....i think that would be an attractive option to those HS kids. far more than would be reciprocated by Colorado kids.
 
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An other aspect to consider if OOS kids from affiliated states paid in-state tuition...

CU's admissions could be extremely selective if enrollement numbers were capped at 22k.

The OOS kids would have ACT's in the 30's and SAT scores in the high 600-700 range for math, and would be in the top 5% of their HS classes. The in-state class would look remedial in comparison.
 
I'm pretty sure none of the major state institutions are included for any of the states in that Western states reciprocal tuition program. CU-Boulder isn't there but neither is Cal, UCLA, UW, or any of the other major schools. It really only works for Cali kids willing to consider UCCS or a CO kid willing to go to Humboldt State.
 
Mick Ronson said:
CU has a very inefficient administration and it's admins are used to the extra out of state cheese. but, bigger picture, if CU honored other states OOS tuition, total enrollment would be 76,000. I oversimplify to make a point.
Click to expand...

And CU would actually be able to sell out most football games! :woot:
 
Denver_sc said:
Kind of off-topic, but that was a big red herring from the conglomorate that owned the Sonics and wanted to move to OKC. Key Arena was completely re-built in 1995 (I think) and and David Stern called Key Arena the quintessential NBA arena with the best sightlines in the NBA or some such afterward. How many arenas do you know that are completely obsolete 15 years after being built? Don't look now, but the Pepsi Center is 11 this year, and how obsolete does it seem? The ownership group demanded a $500M arena (built with mostly taxpayer money) or a $200M renovation to Key Arena or they were going to split.
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Leaving out the fact that Stern had pressed for 4-5 years that the Sonics get a new arena on par with what the Seahawks and Mariners got. The Sonics trouble with the city of Seattle and the Key was going on long before the Hornets were temporarily displaced to OKC (where the great NBA hopes really began for my city), so your comments are off-base. Starbucks owner Howard Schulz bought the Sonics 5-6 years before selling the team to Clay Bennett and the OKC ownership group and he spent his ENTIRE ownership trying to get a new arena for the Sonics. He only sold after the horrible Seattle city leadership told him to, essentially, get bent. Stern was pissed at Seattle and basically called all of the city's bluffs. That's how the team ended up in OKC.

Key Arena opened as the Seattle Center Coliseum in 1962. The building itself is almost 50 years old. They did a nice renovation of it in the mid-90s, but that really only brought the arena to a late 80s/early 90s standard, with no thought at all for the future and the coming wave of arena improvements and money-generating features. In short, they skimped and paid $75 million to gut the old SCC, call it a "new" arena and the new just didn't last in the wake of next-gen arenas.

The Sonics moved because of being treated like a second-class stepchild by the city. When the leadership there grows up and builds an NBA/NHL-suitable arena, the league will come back. But I think it'll be awhile.

As the Key stands now, it'd be fine for a Pac-12 Tournament.
 
Don't you guys get the timing of those articles by the BDC? The Pac-10 tourney is this week and the Pac-10 officals are meeting about expansion as well. They will decide whether to hire a research firm like the Big 11 did and get the ball rolling on expansion if they choose that path.

Another time to look at is early June (5-6) when the Pac-10 CEOs are to meet to perhaps decide if they will expand and who they will invite.
 
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