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Football Transfers and NCAA rules

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by AlferdJasper, Jun 14, 2009.

  1. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    I didn't understand much about how/when a scholarship football player can transfer from one school to another, so I looked up to find other case histories.

    Only found a few. Just sharing in case anyone else finds interesting. I think Robert Marve's (the last one on this post) provides the most information.
    Some of these are about eligibility, waivers for additional year, etc. Marve's story is more about a voluntary transfer and the limitions a university can put on a potential transfer or receiving school


    Transfer Stories

    Trying to figure out what to expect from Josh Smith's request to Transfer, CU's decision to limit him to USC, and the appeal process.

    NONE of these stories are "just like" Josh's, but maybe some of you will find them interesting, as I did. Each one is another clue to the way things go between colleges, scholarships, LOI contracts, appeals, etc.

    Brandon Warren (Left Florida State, Wanted to Transfer to Tennessee to be nearer an ailing mother; Florida State attempted to block his transfer.)
    http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2008/aug/02/waiting-is-the-hardest-part/


    The outcome (link here):
    http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college_fsu/2007/04/warrens_last_tr.html

    Moe Thompson left South Carolina to go to Grambling, after he'd been suspended by USC ... then sued South Carolina because he claimed they were blocking his transfer to Grambling.

    The case went up to Federal Court, Thompson lost.

    Court rejects ex-Gamecock's appeal
    Federal court upholds Thompson ruling
    http://www.thestate.com/591/story/756640.html


    Michigan Quarterback Ryan Mallett equested waiver to play immediately after transferring to Arkansas. (2008)
    The NCAA has denied an appeal filed by the University of Arkansas on behalf of football student-athlete Ryan Mallett seeking a waiver to grant eligibility for competition in the 2008 season after transferring from the University of Michigan.
    http://www.arkansasrazorbacks.com/V...30726&SPID=2419&DB_OEM_ID=6100&ATCLID=1456236
    (note: Michigan did not prevent the transfer. However he was brought in under one coach, and then R Rodriguez came on board, a situation with historically the most sympathy for the athlete caught in middle of a coaching change.)

    Vidal Hazelton requests release from USC to be closer to home, (no evidence that USC limited choices.)
    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/03/sports/sp-uscfyi3

    NCAA denies Hazelton request for eligibility (June 2009)
    (Vidal Hazelton left Southern California for Cincinnati, requested to play right away.
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...ncinnati.hazelton.ap/index.html?eref=si_ncaaf


    Miami Hurricanes QB leaves for Purdue
    Purdue offers scholarship to Robert Marve, will play in 2010.
    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-robert-marve-transfers-purdue-s052009,0,917789.story

    Sounds like Marve wanted to play at Tennessee, but “Marve would've had the same opportunity under Lane Kiffin at Tennessee, but only as a walk-on. Miami wouldn't release Marve from his scholarship to play at the SEC school.”

    Interesting quote: once Marve told them he wanted to leave, he was limited from transferring to ANY of 27 named schools.

    Wow.

    .
    (Rivals premium article: Block on Marve Transfer Out of Bounds)
    http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=dw-marve010308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

    That included all 11 of the other teams in the ACC, all 12 in the SEC and four others in the state of Florida.

    Later Miami softened the ban to allow Marve to transfer on scholarship to any SEC school other than Florida, LSU and Tennessee – and NO schools within Florida, no matter the conference.

    Since Marve was from Tampa, and wanted to transfer because his father had prostate cancer, understandably wanted to stay in the Southeast, if not in state.

    Speculation in the article was that Miami’s coach wanted to use Marve’s situation to intimidate his other players who might consider transferring.

    Oklahoma’s Stoops says the opposite:
    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2009/01/10/0110marve.html

    When a University of Oklahoma football player wants to transfer, there's very little drama that comes along with it. Stoops says, if you aren't happy here, go and good luck to ya. (He was interviewed about Marve's situation.)

    "''Let him go where ever he wants to,' is pretty much all I can remember saying," Sooners coach Bob Stoops said. "I don't much care where they go."

    Interesting point – details about the university appeal process:

    Didn't find any articles that supported an athlete in this type of battle. Apparently, the ncaa tends to support the coaching decisions, courts tend to uphold the LOI that was signed (it is a contract, after all), the appeals process through a university panel typically sided with institution ... in the VERY few articles I could find that mentioned it at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
    NiTownBuff, dply, Hugegroove and 3 others like this.
  2. jjbuffs13

    jjbuffs13 Well-Known Member

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    I would expect that the court and the NCAA would tend to side with the coaches/school. I dont see why they wouldnt. Like you said, the student signed a contract.

    Rep for the work that you put into this
     
  3. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    I feel bad for the kids who wanted to transfer due to sick family members, but were denied.
     
  4. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I'm sure I'm a minority, but I hope JFly never plays another down of college football.
     
  5. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    The Rivals article about Marve was incredibly critical about the limitations on his transfer.
    and this,
    Kyle Ringo says Josh Smith's situation has been decided and will be announced this week. We'll see if the media accepts the decision or comes down hard on CU/Hawkins/Bohn. The thing is, Smith didn't provide any hardship data -- wanting to change majors is pretty slight.

    The initial decision (you can transfer to USC only) seems harsh, but there were other athletes who were told, "we won't release you anywhere." They can drop out of one school and enroll in another, but it the player is already a junior, the lack of an unconditional release means he can't get scholarshipped by the new school, even if they want to give him one. (That's how I read it.)

    One thing that's never been addressed is if USC wants to scholarship Smith.
    I'm sure they can't say much because it would be interference in the process to have contact at this point, but there wasn't any indication they were all that hot for him when he was in high school (His archived 2007 Rivals profile shows offers from CU, UCLA, Washington State only). And if Josh is following the rules, he can't know whether or not they want him, because he hasn't had any contact.

    Well, should be resolved soon. Be interesting to see who "wins" (nobody, IMO.) and who is skewered in the media. I can see both sides in this one.
    But the NCAA isn't going to let the athletes drive this bus.
     
  6. Rraalph 3000

    Rraalph 3000 Well-Known Member

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    Some of the other cases could definately appeal to the media's soft side which would call for the butchering of the university....but in this case with the joke of the transfer for a "hip hop major" along with many reports of him not putting in the work it's hard to not side with the University here.

    Of course there's always John Henderson :doh:
     
  7. Hugegroove

    Hugegroove Club Member Club Member

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    Hmmmm, I wonder if Stoops would practice what he preeches if his starting QB announced that he wanted to transfer?
     
  8. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Sure he would. He has three guys right behind the starter who could do the job just as well, with a little practice. I'm less concerned with what Stoops, Mack Brown, Urban Meyer, and Pete Carroll have to say about the subject than some guys from schools who don't have that luxury.
     
  9. ladyblaise

    ladyblaise Club Member Club Member

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    Anything can happen on any given day. However, Stoops has a pattern of behavior regarding this. He also was quick to boot Bomar from the team a couple weeks shy of the season opener a few years back. Bomar's backup at the time was a scrawny kid with a last name of Bradford.
     
  10. BeachBronco

    BeachBronco Active Member

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    I get tired of these things, these players are legally an adult. They are signing contracts offering their services(football) in exchange for a free education(worth a crapload of money). Fullfill your contract.
     
  11. Lt.Col.FrankSlade

    Lt.Col.FrankSlade Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Bomar's backup was a wide receiver named Paul Thompson.
     
  12. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    This appears to be the NCAA's position in almost all the cases and appeals I could find.

    If the University feels "no harm, no foul" they can let the player go without a fuss. But it the University wants the player to uphold their end of the contract, the NCAA (and apparently the law) will respect that.

    That's why the LOI is a contract. Both sides are promising something in exchange for fulfilling the contract.
     
  13. ladyblaise

    ladyblaise Club Member Club Member

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  14. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    Just moving some of this to a thread where we can talk about transfers more generally and not only in relation to Mr. Smith, who has made his decision.
     
  15. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    McGuffie, Mallet and Clemmons were all caught up in the Michigan coaching change. As I said, I believe those are usually easy (or easier) releases.

    Jevon Snead was a qb who was behind Colt McCoy for the TX longhorns; a player who is not expected to get the playing time he feels he deserves, is also a more likely candidate for a transfer. (Ballenger fits in this category, after Helfrich was interviewed saying the QB battle was between two other players, and not Matt. Release requested and given.)

    Patrick Witt was fighting for the QB spot at Nebraska and (story murky) wanted some assurance he would be the starter. Other factors involved. Since he had earlier problems (suspicion of disturbing the peace, trespassing, third-degree assault by menacing threats, minor in possession by consuming and possession of a false ID), and there were some rumors he was teaching another QB candidate the wrong signals, the coaching staff determined it was in everyone's best interest he move on.

    To discuss something similar to CU's recent situation, find a starter who was given playing time and inexplicably asked for a release.

    From what I've read, the reasons most likely to be granted included:

    lack of playing time or place on depth chart
    desire to move nearer to home, especially for hardship reasons (illness in family, etc.)
    change of coaching regime
     
  16. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    Of course there will be minor differences, as no case is exactly the same. Regardless of who I mention, you will find some minute difference, obviously. Point stands, the vast majority of the time players are released completely or released with minimal restrictions.

    Remember Curt Dukes (who NU fans swore was the next Scott Frost, LOL!) at Nebraska? A player Nebraska was trying to make their starting QB. He wanted out, so they released him, although I don't remember where he ended up.

    A player gets in trouble, you release him from scholarship with no restrictions. A player wants to get out, allegedly for academic reasons, and you severely restrict his options. That, IMO, seems backwards.
     
  17. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I don't agree with your point. That's why I started looking at transfer histories to see what the typical response was. I wanted to see if CU was way off base or whether there was precedent for such a restriction on a transfer request.

    There were other schools who limited, restricted, or denied transfers.
    There are some athletes who were given unrestricted releases.
    Most fall in between.

    The reason the athlete requests the transfer seems to be the most important, along with the relationship he has with the school/coach.

    If this were truly, 100% an academic reason for transfer, then -- I surmise -- why did it suddenly occur to the athlete in his third year at CU, after the spring game, that he wanted a different major? But when pressed, the athlete listed as many as 8 schools who didn't have the major he claimed to need (music production or recording production.) So the reason he gave increased the problem of his transfer - that was his own doing, not CU's.

    That seemed to be the sticking point - his stated reason for leaving didn't wash with where he wanted to go.

    When an athlete says he wants to be closer to home, has an ill family member, etc. it does seem more likely he will be let loose of obligations. But even with that (see Marve's case), the college can be quite restrictive if they chose to be.
     
  18. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    You disagree with it, but I'm pretty confident of its validity.

    In the vast majority of transfers, players are completely released or with few restrictions (such as not releasing a player to a conference foe).

    Be it that the player is transfering due to being homesick, playing time, legal issues, academics, whatever, it is very, very rare that such strict restrictions are placed on a transfer such as what we have seen with Josh Smith.

    I can list dozens and dozens of transfers from across the country who have been released with far fewer restrictions than Smith, yet you can probably come up with fewer than 5 who were restricted moreso or equivalent to Smith.

    Yes, Marve had a few restrictions, initially. He wasn't allowed to transfer to a conference foe (common) or an SEC team, or a Florida team. The restrictions were later lightened, but even that doesn't quite compare to limiting a player's transfer to just ONE school.

    In any sense, I imagine our best coarse of action (you and I) is to simply agree to disagree.
     
  19. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    Issue: Should a school's athletic department have the authority to administer releases as they see fit, or should the NCAA mandate uniformity through a standard opperating method and proceedure?

    The first option gives high paid coaches and athletic directors the authority to manage their student athletes they way they see fit, free of the burden of adhering to some overly bureaucratic set of compliance issues.

    The second option establishes consistency from school to school. The establishment of such a policy would create a political process whereby all D1 and D2 programs attempt to find consensus, where opinions are bound to vary according to conference and team.
     
  20. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    In order for a college football program to be successful, it has to have some ability to count on the athletes that are selected, and sign a letter of intent, with that school. There is a limit to scholly numbers, and you have to field a team: so many players in each position, like a jigsaw puzzle fitting together. Coaches are looking at the current year, the next, attrition, graduation, filling the spots for the optimum outcome based on future projections.

    That's why there IS a letter of intent. The school and athlete agree they will work together. Both know there is still a chance that something won't work out, maybe there's an injury, or the athlete never develops, or another athlete comes forward with unexpected talent and moves ahead on the chart. But the school is bound to the athlete* for essentially four years. Technically, the school can pull a scholly at the end of a year, but that is done rarely, except when team rules are violated, academically ineligible, or laws broken.

    If an athlete feels he can't reach his potential at a particular school (he's the fourth string QB, ala Nick Montana, etc.), he can request a transfer. Since the school wasn't going to play him much anyway, it's a win/win for both parties. School gets scholly back, athlete gets another opportunity.

    But a player who IS getting playing time, it's a tougher decision. By jumping ship, the original school is left with a hole in the roster to fill, and often at an inopportune time. There is an "investment" (bear with me, not talking money) to develop a player, with time and resources that would have gone to another athlete who would have had those years to develop. The player leaves, and you lose HIM, but the school also has a gap where another player could have been developed instead. Double loss. So I can understand why schools don't want to work with a player for a couple of years, help him mature, grow, learn, and then hand him off to the competition, thank you so much for your effort.

    I think schools should have the ability to decide in each case which they will offer when a transfer is requested. Maybe there is a time period Jan-Feb where an athlete can announce they want to leave and have unrestricted transfer. After that, the university gets to impose limits. The athlete has the ability EVERY YEAR to decide whether to come back or seek greener pastures. If he's unsure, he should decide before he signs the letter of intent for year two, three, or four. Everybody needs to get a clear understanding of what it means to sign a legal contract; even 20 year old athletes. Your siggie means something on that paper. Not sure? don't sign.


    *One exception to this unwritten rule is UCLA, who seems quite happy to "encourage" athletes to find a new home in order to supplant them with bigger, better, stronger and older guys. No qualms there.
    I can only hope that UCLA's reputation for pushing guys off the team will hurt them in recruiting sooner than later. We'll see.


    Note: Nick Montana was a walk-on so not a great example, but he voluntarily left due to his place on depth chart.
     
  21. Denver_sc

    Denver_sc Club Member Club Member

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    This is the part that I think bears mention with regard to JFly. IMHO, timing played as much of a factor as anything in the administration's decision. I think the timing is a little fishy when the only major event around the request for release was the end of spring practices, and JFly claimed to be asking for a release for academic purposes. He finished football in late Nov. last year, finished classes presumably a little after that and then decided mysteriously in the middle of the following semester that all of the sudden his academic needs weren't being met? I'm not accusing him directly of anything, but I think the timing is suspicious if nothing else.

    IF you truly believe that he really wanted a transfer to a school where he could pursue his academic desires and be closer to home, then a release to two schools meeting those requirements should be good enough. IF you don't, then you are left with the possibility that either he was unhappy with his spot here on the football team. At the moment when it becomes an athletics issue, the school would have set a VERY dangerous precedent, not just for themselves but for other athletic programs as well, by allowing a marquis player to have a transfer for his last two seasons with little to no reprecussions. If that happens, then I think we'll start to see a lot more of these forced transfers both within CU and from afar.

    As Alferd mentions, the timing screws the team to no end, because this isn't like the NFL where there are guys standing around waiting for a contract. This forces the team to go into the season either one horse short, or making a panic offer to a lesser player. Even if either of those situations wouldn't greatly impact the program, another, perhaps bigger, issue is the fact that a lot of package work done with the offense and special teams in spring ball is now wasted. I for one think his timing sucks, and while I wish him all the best in whatever future plans he has I will also say that he could have done a lot better by CU.
     
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  22. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    Nick Montana?
     
  23. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    :iagree:
     
  24. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    That was a total brain blip.

    I was thinking of Chris Forcier. Have no idea why I wrote Montana.

    Redshirt sophomore Forcier transferred out of UCLA this June when he realized where he was on the depth chart. Neu. said he could be a receiver, but he wanted to play QB, so he left. Neu (in need of schollies after oversigning) did not object to the transfer. It's unclear but some reports say he was not released to seek a transfer to another Pacific-10 schoo. He went DII.

    That's one way to free up a scholly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009

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