1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

How long to turn a program around?

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by navybuff, Sep 21, 2009.

  1. navybuff

    navybuff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    10
    How long should it take to turn a program around.

    Certainly it takes longer to go into a program that has "no" football culture vs. one with a winning culture.

    For example:

    Turning the Broncos around vs. turning the Detroit Lions around would require more patience with the Lions.

    Turning a Northwestern around like Barnett did vs. an Idaho would also require more patience with at team like the Vandals.

    But regardless, like the Bronco's this year. Should a new coach be able to breathe life into a program regardless of the preceding culture, immediately?
     
  2. NashBuff

    NashBuff CSU Knob-Slobberer

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,909
    Likes Received:
    57
    I think three years was enough to turn the CU program around given what CU had at the time of Hawk's hiring. Big Mac even asked us to give Hawk three years and we, the fans, have done our part.
     
  3. MiamiBuffs

    MiamiBuffs Wᴉɐɯᴉ qnɟɟs Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    36,126
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    With Detroit it would only take 2 to 3 good drafts. If I were them Id hire the Tuna. Look what a job he did with 2 seasons in the front office of the Dolphins.

    College is a different ball of wax because you have to convince kids to come to your school.
     
  4. InTheBuff

    InTheBuff Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    11,249
    Likes Received:
    502
    look at Washington or even colorado state-

    if the coach(es) know what they are doing it can happen almost overnight...
     
  5. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    24,965
    Likes Received:
    2,663
    Generally, I'd say five years for a college program. Shorter if the coach is taking over an established program laden with talent (i.e. Oregon, ND, Tenn, etc.)

    The problem with Hawk, is he has consistently WAY overpromised and under delievered. In year one, we were told "We're going to win with what we've got" and "Either you are trying to win the MNC or you are not". In '07, I believ it was, we heard the "We're so close" sideline rant. Before this season we had the now hotly contested 10 win remark.

    I was not impatient the first three years. But in year four you expect to see some signs of life. When you start off getting reamed by two mid tier conference teams, you have pretty much used up your passes IMO. Add in the internet scum comment and derisive comments towards former Buffs and a "You people have never coached, so you don't know jack" attitude and you have a recipe for ill will.

    The longer it takes for the team to look like it is going somewhere, the more you need to see on the back end. Right now, if Hawk doesn't make a bowl, he may be in a hole nothing short of a 10 W season can fix to reach five years and look like he's the man.
     
  6. SJBuff

    SJBuff Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,707
    Likes Received:
    251
    :yeahthat:Well said.
     
  7. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,493
    Likes Received:
    605
    I believe that you build a program in stages. Remember also there are many different parts of a program.

    First, on field performance - regardless of the talent you start getting your players to play solid, disciplined football. The also have to be coached up to play above their talent and with intensity - see CSU - I think that is a lot of what Fairchild is doing.

    Second, you have to keep improving the talent. Every year you get a little better and improve your recruiting pipeline into the recruiting hotbeds - see North Carolina.

    Third, you have to consistently get a little better each year.
     
  8. buffsfan01

    buffsfan01 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    15
    well as soon as his son is done here we will have way better qb play for sure...but until then we just have to deal with what we got and right now we have nothing because all this staff does is blah blah blah lie after lie all our players are going to ucla and if i was scott i would be joining my uncle cause there not ever gonna let the kid play period...
     
  9. BuffSurveyor

    BuffSurveyor Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,435
    Likes Received:
    68

    Based upon what I see. Two years is about right.
     
  10. zbuff

    zbuff Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,408
    Likes Received:
    712
    Really? Who was our QB when Hawkins took over? Who were the WRs?

    I think you give a guy 5 years, but you want to see progress, and you want to see intelligent decisions. We've seen neither on a consistent basis, which is the only reason I'd cut him off at 4 (providing that trend continues).
     
  11. BuffFan

    BuffFan Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    7
    How long is Hawkins head coach? Would like Dan to turn it around but not likely. IMO At least three years after Dan.
     
  12. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    80,655
    Likes Received:
    16,334
    2 years most places.

    3 if you're at a school where you can't take a lot of JUCOs and marginal academic qualifiers (Notre Dame, UCLA, Michigan, etc.).

    4 if you have the same academic issues as the 3-year situation, but you're not in a recruiting hotbed and have committed to redshirting as many recruits as possible to develop them and build the right foundation for the future (Wake Forest, Wisconsin, Colorado, etc.).
     
  13. Crash Davis

    Crash Davis MA....THE MEATLOAF!!! Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    100
    I think it really depends. As much I'm not inclined to defend Hawkins right now, he was trying to make major changes to the culture of the football program. You essentially have to tear it down and build it back up again and that takes time, especially when talent is lacking and I do think talent is as much an issue for us right now as scheme or game day coaching, maybe more.

    We've had a grand total of 5 players drafted the last 3 years and those represent Barney's last 3 classes. 2 of those were 7th round picks and 1 was a kicker. Also none of them were offensive players.

    I'm as tired as anyone of Hawkin's BS and 14-26, but you have to admit he's been standing on the less talented sideline for the majority of those games. I went back through the results and, trying to be as objective as I could, tried to see how many wins he *should* have, based strictly on talent and I came up with something like 17 or 18.
     
  14. BuffsIn2009

    BuffsIn2009 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Terry Frei says five years. He has some close experience, being the son of a former college head coach.
     
  15. SkiTownUSA

    SkiTownUSA Administrator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    7,411
    Likes Received:
    198

    Well we missed two out of your three stages. At least this year the on field performance hasn't been anything to write home about. Unless your letter is a rant.

    We took a step back last year from two years ago, and this year is looking to be another step back.
     
  16. CsquaredCC

    CsquaredCC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    74
    I think you need to give a new coach the opportunity to bring at least one full class through "his" system and have a starting junior or senior at QB that the coach recruited. Some coaches are able to get things moving in the right direction quicker with a solid system (see Nick Saben) while others take a longer depending on where the program's talent level was when the new regime took over (see Ron Zook).

    Zook is just starting to feel some heat in Illinois for that reason. He has a 4 star senior QB in Juice Williams, a veteren solid defense that he recruited, and outstanding skill players like Arrelious Benn. Yet Illinois went 5-7 last season and got beat up by a talented, but still very young Missouri team to start this season.

    As a CSU fan and outside observer my opinion is that Hawkins probably derserves one more year to get it moving in the right direction. Cody will be a senior, Scott will be a junior, and the line up front will continue to improve throughout the year and into next season. Plus CU would have at least given the head coach one fully recruited class to in which to take the field with. At that point I think you can make a pretty informed judgment about what level Hawkins may or may not get the program.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2009
  17. SkiTownUSA

    SkiTownUSA Administrator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    7,411
    Likes Received:
    198

    You'd like that wouldn't you. :lol: Trying to sneak in one more win against the Buffs. Clever dog you.
     
  18. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    24,965
    Likes Received:
    2,663
    Another year of watching the overwhelming bulk of the pass completions be of the five yard curl variety might make me hurl....
     
  19. GoBuffs08

    GoBuffs08 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,812
    Likes Received:
    645
    How many more years does Juice Box have on the contract?

    That is how long it takes to turn the program around.
     
  20. CsquaredCC

    CsquaredCC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    74
    Actually quite the opposite. I think CSU's chances of winning next season would only increase if CU was breaking in another head coach and system. Combine that with the player transfers that almost always occur when the coach who recruited them is let go and I think my position is actually against my own interests.
     
    Chilly likes this.
  21. MiamiBuffs

    MiamiBuffs Wᴉɐɯᴉ qnɟɟs Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    36,126
    Likes Received:
    2,017
    I think Mac took about that long.
     
  22. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,493
    Likes Received:
    605
    Why in heck did you say I posted that ---I should negative REP you calling me a CSU fan......:cry:



    I don't think it is a set number of years. You have to constantly evaluate the situation and when you see it is not working you take action. Look at Calahan at Nebraska - they knew it was not going to work out.

    Hawkins challenge is to show something of substance in the program. Right now he is delivering nothing.
     
  23. SkiTownUSA

    SkiTownUSA Administrator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    7,411
    Likes Received:
    198

    I believe someone changed it. CsquaredCC replied an knew who I quoted. I don't know what happened. I changed it back though.
     
  24. LincolnBuff

    LincolnBuff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,528
    Likes Received:
    25
    When Hawk was hired I thought he should have 5 years. We were in quite a hole and are still digging out as the cupboard was greatly depleted but I also figured that progress should be seen even though there would be some apparent steps backward at times. I do think Hawk has brought in better talent but it's still young as he has only had 3 classes he recruited.
     
  25. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    58,469
    Likes Received:
    4,678
    Look. Hawkins inherited a program that had put stupid restrictions on recruiting for the two or three years prior to him taking over. So, first, he took over a program that had already suffered a talent hit. Second, he took over a program which is one of the top two conferences in college football. He happened to hit the Big XII just when Missouri and Kansas were peaking. Not to mention that it is much more difficult to recruit Texas and California than it was even 10 years ago. Under these circumstances, almost any, if not all, coaches would require a good five years. Add to that the fact that Colorado has that stupid Tabor ammendment which absolutely makes it difficult to attract and/or keep the top assistants, and you have a serious problem. Oh, and don't forget that, while receding, CU still has the stigma of "the scandal" years.

    What CU does have going for it is that it is a great school on the best campus in the Big XII. CU also has some good recognition as an elite program with pretty good media exposure.
     
  26. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    24,965
    Likes Received:
    2,663
    You kids get off Hawkins' lawn, dagnabit!:smile2:
     
  27. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,493
    Likes Received:
    605
    Even if you are short on talent I still want to see the team play solid, disciplined football. Take Bill Mallory as an example, he did not recruit well but he was a good coach. His teams would play tough and would beat teams when they made mistakes.

    I hate the argument that you are trying to make and it really rings hollow to me. It totally ignores the fact that CU was totally handled 2 weeks in a row by teams that have recruited no where the talent CU has - the talent excuse does not cut it. CSU is lucky to get a 3 star recruit much less a 4 star. They started an entirely new defensive line, were without their best olineman and had a QB who had thrown 5 passes in college games before this season. How does the any of your argument apply to CSU or Toledo games?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2009
  28. SkiTownUSA

    SkiTownUSA Administrator Club Member Junta Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2008
    Messages:
    7,411
    Likes Received:
    198

    I hope your not talking about CSU here. The Ewes have more combined starts by the O-lineman as a group than any other team in the country. That is CSU's strength.

    I'm not arguing that as a whole team, our talent should be and is better than theirs. Just pointing out the line thing. And i agree that DBT's point doesn't justify losing to CSU and Toledo. He can save that for BigXII losses.
     
  29. SINKRATZ

    SINKRATZ Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,176
    Likes Received:
    1,161
    The team just doesn't look better than they did 2 years ago and that's what bothers me.

    On the subject of assistant coach contracts, could CU get around this by having each assistant contract directly with the head coach instead of the school? For example, CU agrees to pay a head coach $4 million per year, but won't hire any assistants. The head coach then hires the assistants and pays them out of his salary. Then at least the assistants could get longer term deals because they'd get whatever the coach gets. I'm sure there's plenty of complications I'm missing here, but wanted to ask the question.
     
  30. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,493
    Likes Received:
    605
    I meant defensive line... sorry typed that too fast.
     

Share This Page