Is Lappe coaching for her job at this point?

[DBT]

WBB is going to lose money. I think this is a case where investment that leads to a better product leads to less of a loss. VB is the same thing. Figure in concessions to your numbers. Important thing here is to get more people into the Keg for these games.

Something that's outside their control, though, which further emphasizes how much football determines the health of the entire athletic department is that right now our priority points are almost meaningless since we're not concerned about bowl tix. But if football's winning a lot more people buy season tix for other sports simply to manipulate their points standing.

They lump concessions, merchandise, parking, contributions, TV, etc., into lump sums and not per sport but I estimate football accounts for close to $50,000,000 of our $70,000,000 in revenue. That's assuming donations are made, primarily, to support football and TV revenue is mostly from football. Hey, let's start a Title XI thread!

The point might be that even if you change coaches, win more, bring more fans and, hopefully, make the post season, the potential revenue increase might be a couple hundred thousand a year. That's about 0.3% of the AD's revenue. But then, VB revenue is a fraction of WBB and even a bigger drain on the budget and they fired the VB coach. Although I don't think that was a financial decision.

 

[absinthe]

The point might be that even if you change coaches, win more, bring more fans and, hopefully, make the post season, the potential revenue increase might be a couple hundred thousand a year. That's about 0.3% of the AD's revenue. But then, VB revenue is a fraction of WBB and even a bigger drain on the budget and they fired the VB coach. Although I don't think that was a financial decision.

Couple notes on VB we dont have to buy that coach out we simply "didnt renew" that contract so there is no cost there, dont ask me how but the numbers I have seen for VB say it loses us roughly 60% of what women's hoops does. I expect a lot of that is driven by coaches salaries.

While i agree with you the increase you could get from these sports is pretty minimal in relation to the whole budget, i also look at it as fixing a weak link. If you get basketball (M&W combined) not to lose us money then we have the full 10mm surplus from football to spend on other things.

 

[BuffDog]

I have been to some of the games this year. The team is going to struggle this year as well as next year when Jamie Swann graduates. The freshman Leonard and Robinson are good and something to build around in the coming years. The women can have 14 scholarship players but only 12 are on the roster and it seems like only 10 are suiting up for games. Freeman is redshirting this year after transferring and I think the freshman Burich is redshirting as well. Hopefully the 2 recruits signed for 2016 can come in and contribute right away. I don't want to see her replaced at this point in time. They don't give up and I think that they will beat a ranked team or two in conference play.

 

[Buffnik]

Couple notes on VB we dont have to buy that coach out we simply "didnt renew" that contract so there is no cost there, dont ask me how but the numbers I have seen for VB say it loses us roughly 60% of what women's hoops does. I expect a lot of that is driven by coaches salaries.

While i agree with you the increase you could get from these sports is pretty minimal in relation to the whole budget, i also look at it as fixing a weak link. If you get basketball (M&W combined) not to lose us money then we have the full 10mm surplus from football to spend on other things.

I think it's possible to get court sports to be budget neutral, including CEC event revenue like the preseason game the Nuggets played.

That's the dream, at least. This plus football healthy would mean the addition of new sports.

 

[sackman]

That's the dream, at least. This plus football healthy would mean the addition of new sports.

A much bigger factor in bringing in new sports will be the endowment. The endowment has the potential to bring in enough revenue to pay for all non-football sports. I think it's more likely that once the endowment is fully funding the non-football sports, then you will see expansion into new sports. Gotta have that reliable revenue stream first, I think. This is all outside what revenues are generated by WVB and WBB.

 

[absinthe]

A much bigger factor in bringing in new sports will be the endowment. The endowment has the potential to bring in enough revenue to pay for all non-football sports. I think it's more likely that once the endowment is fully funding the non-football sports, then you will see expansion into new sports. Gotta have that reliable revenue stream first, I think. This is all outside what revenues are generated by WVB and WBB.

to fully fund all others and add sports you are talking about a 250 million dollar endowment

 

[Uncle Ken]

to fully fund all others and add sports you are talking about a 250 million dollar endowment

That's huge! Like, Milton Berle huge.

 

[sackman]

to fully fund all others and add sports you are talking about a 250 million dollar endowment

Probably more, in fact.

A little back of the napkin math results in a $375MM endowment necessary to fund all non-football sports. There's a bunch of assumptions put in that calculation that may not be accurate.

 

[buffgal]

I have been to some of the games this year. The team is going to struggle this year as well as next year when Jamie Swann graduates. The freshman Leonard and Robinson are good and something to build around in the coming years. The women can have 14 scholarship players but only 12 are on the roster and it seems like only 10 are suiting up for games. Freeman is redshirting this year after transferring and I think the freshman Burich is redshirting as well. Hopefully the 2 recruits signed for 2016 can come in and contribute right away. I don't want to see her replaced at this point in time. They don't give up and I think that they will beat a ranked team or two in conference play.

Burich tore her ACL and had to redshirt due to injury.

I am not at all impressed with the two recruits for 2016 and we still have not signed a post player, which is the biggest need on the team. We are guard heavy. Our players need to be stronger and have more strength and width to them and still be quick. We are not the quickest team out there.

Kennedy Leonard has so much talent. I just hope she doesn't see the handwriting on the wall and jump ship. If she's smart, she will and then the team is doomed.

Again, Lappe hasn't won since playing with just her players. She looked fine when she was using KMM's recruits. Her staff is not good at finding players or, if they are, Lappe can't close the deal.

I enjoyed watching Lappe play, but that does not a good coach make.

 

[pwbuffan]

Year 6 and we're a bottom tier Pac squad and have been for a while now. I don't get the impression that the program is headed anywhere. Time for a change if this year plays out to the same tune as it has started.

Agree. This should be her last year and RG should be looking right now for a replacement.

 

[sackman]

Curious as to why so many of you are so passionate about women's basketball.
If I were RG, I think I'd be tempted to put most of my energy into rebuilding the football program. Figure an additional 2000 people per game at women's hoops is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be realized with a better football product. Isn't women's hoops kind of like women's tennis insomuch as it is a program we have, but it's not a real high priority?

 

[jsmilkst]

Curious as to why so many of you are so passionate about women's basketball.
If I were RG, I think I'd be tempted to put most of my energy into rebuilding the football program. Figure an additional 2000 people per game at women's hoops is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be realized with a better football product. Isn't women's hoops kind of like women's tennis insomuch as it is a program we have, but it's not a real high priority?

I feel like this doesn't deserve a response, but here I am anyways. First, why should those be mutually exclusive? Not like RG is going to spending all his waking hours on this and drop all other priorities. Second, women's basketball has a long history of success here, and is the most visible women's sport. Third, don't be a prick

 

[Buffnik]

Curious as to why so many of you are so passionate about women's basketball.
If I were RG, I think I'd be tempted to put most of my energy into rebuilding the football program. Figure an additional 2000 people per game at women's hoops is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be realized with a better football product. Isn't women's hoops kind of like women's tennis insomuch as it is a program we have, but it's not a real high priority?

As AD, he's expected to walk and chew gum at the same time.

From what I understand, he looks at the sports at CU and believes that each should have a certain level of success. Tennis he realizes is underfunded, has climate challenges, and doesn't have facilities so he's not expecting a regular Top 25 performance. Golf programs and T&F also fall within that category to a lesser extent -- he still has high expectations but understands that greatness on the national level may be out of reach in the short-term. WLAX is a new sport, so that necessitates some patience. Every other program he expects to be competing for conference championships every year and in position to make some noise nationally. Football is king by a country mile in terms of revenue, booster support, media exposure, fan perception, recruiting and attendance for all sports so he's focusing resources there, but he's not going to tolerate underperformance anywhere within his department. To do so would be to undermine the culture he is establishing at CU.

 

[sackman]

I feel like this doesn't deserve a response, but here I am anyways. First, why should those be mutually exclusive? Not like RG is going to spending all his waking hours on this and drop all other priorities. Second, women's basketball has a long history of success here, and is the most visible women's sport. Third, don't be a prick

I'll take that under advisement.

 

[DBT]

Curious as to why so many of you are so passionate about women's basketball.
If I were RG, I think I'd be tempted to put most of my energy into rebuilding the football program. Figure an additional 2000 people per game at women's hoops is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be realized with a better football product. Isn't women's hoops kind of like women's tennis insomuch as it is a program we have, but it's not a real high priority?

I think that's exactly WHY RIck would want to put the effort in to get a successful WBB program, for example, in place. Because a successful program, whether it be tennis, WBB, or football, lightens his workload. If he can find a successful VB, WBB, etc. coach, they become more self sustainable and reduce things he has to deal with. So I kind of answered my own question from above. It's less about economics and more about the AD's ability to focus on fewer things.

 

[DBT]

I feel like this doesn't deserve a response, but here I am anyways. First, why should those be mutually exclusive? Not like RG is going to spending all his waking hours on this and drop all other priorities. Second, women's basketball has a long history of success here, and is the most visible women's sport. Third, don't be a schlong.

FIFY

 

[BeBe]

Another point to consider for the women's sports ... Looking at the AD finances: there are donors to these sports, including $10K per year scholarship donors. If these sports turn into disappointments and those donors go away, the costs that their donations covered don't go away. So the money for these then has to come from the AD's funds that had been going somewhere else. So even if you personally are not a fan of the women's sports, there are fans out there and having successful women's programs does bring in some revenue to the AD.

 

[Buffnik]

Another point to consider for the women's sports ... Looking at the AD finances: there are donors to these sports, including $10K per year scholarship donors. If these sports turn into disappointments and those donors go away, the costs that their donations covered don't go away. So the money for these then has to come from the AD's funds that had been going somewhere else. So even if you personally are not a fan of the women's sports, there are fans out there and having successful women's programs does bring in some revenue to the AD.

While success leads to additional scholarship donors and -- the dream -- boster(s) deciding to endow coaching positions.

 

[aik]

Curious as to why so many of you are so passionate about women's basketball.
If I were RG, I think I'd be tempted to put most of my energy into rebuilding the football program. Figure an additional 2000 people per game at women's hoops is a drop in the bucket compared to what could be realized with a better football product. Isn't women's hoops kind of like women's tennis insomuch as it is a program we have, but it's not a real high priority?

With conference peers like UCLA and Stanford, you can see they have many more programs that over a period of time have a bigger tradition of winning and it's really a bar I'd like to see set that CU attain and sustain excellence in each one. RG has benchmarks for measuring this and if the football program could overcome being a laughing stock then the idea that we need to get that right first obviously goes away. I don't believe it looks genuine to pay lip service to the non-revenues and then suddenly show the real commitment to excellence once we get bowl money and Pac-12 CCG bonuses and whatnot and then start spreading the wealth.

Sacky, I'm fully with you that football needs the bulk of the resources here to right the ship, but I also recall you investing significantly less time in the men's hoops forum before the better product arrived. I want enough concern placed on our other scholarship sports that they can succeed independent of how football is doing.

 

[buffgal]

I love women's basketball and will always be passionate about the CU team. Always have been, always will be. RG has to consider Title IX requirements. I don't know exactly what they are. However, I do know that CU can not drop a single sport and remain a DI school and it can not drop a women's sport and be compliant with Title IX. I also know that if CU puts a great basketball team on the court, it can draw a lot more than 2,000 more people per game. It did from the early 90's for about 5 or 6 years. It can do it again. CU has a strong tradition in women's basketball that Ceal brought to the program. Her protege is not going to take us there no matter how much she wants to. I do think Lappe wants to succeed. I just don't think she has the skills to succeed at the level needed.

I also want CU to achieve and sustain excellence. It can be done with the right coach. Lappe is not it. Questioned the hire from the beginning and it seemed okay when she had KMM's recruits.

I don't care about football, but I understand the financial side of why CU needs a good football team. I don't understand why the non-revenue sports should be relegated to the bottom of the Pac 12 along with the football team.

 

[MtnBuff]

I love women's basketball and will always be passionate about the CU team. Always have been, always will be. RG has to consider Title IX requirements. I don't know exactly what they are. However, I do know that CU can not drop a single sport and remain a DI school and it can not drop a women's sport and be compliant with Title IX. I also know that if CU puts a great basketball team on the court, it can draw a lot more than 2,000 more people per game. It did from the early 90's for about 5 or 6 years. It can do it again. CU has a strong tradition in women's basketball that Ceal brought to the program. Her protege is not going to take us there no matter how much she wants to. I do think Lappe wants to succeed. I just don't think she has the skills to succeed at the level needed.

I also want CU to achieve and sustain excellence. It can be done with the right coach. Lappe is not it. Questioned the hire from the beginning and it seemed okay when she had KMM's recruits.

I don't care about football, but I understand the financial side of why CU needs a good football team. I don't understand why the non-revenue sports should be relegated to the bottom of the Pac 12 along with the football team.

Womens BB can have a lot to do with how the other non-revenue sports are funded.

Simple economics says that WBB is unlikely to ever be a money maker for CU, how many women's programs in the country actually make money for their schools? I would guess an almost minuscule number.

That doesn't mean that WBB can't make a significant difference though. Of all the women's programs BB is the highest profile. We now have the WNBA, the women's tourney is televised in prime time nationally. The women get regular coverage in the media unlike most non-revenue sports.

Due to Title IX the budget for WBB is going to above their revenue even including donations. That doesn't mean though that the deficit can't be significantly reduced. Boulder has proven in the Ceal years that they would turn out for a quality product, I don't think that has changed. If a winning team can even produce an average gain of 1000 fans per game that has huge implications for revenue.

Football and MBB are going to get their money, they are the ones who make money and get the most attention. As stated WBB is going to get it's money. The rest of the sports have to divide up the rest of the available funds. $100,000 or even $50,000 in additional WBB revenue doesn't sound like much in the football and BB budgets but if they can generate that revenue instead of having to fund it the can then use it for other sports.

For sports like tennis and soccer and LAX even a portion of that money can make a significant difference.

That all starts with the product on the floor for WBB and if it isn't up to standard then RG has to make changes.

 

[SBG]

Isn't CU one of the least compliant title IX schools around? Are female players even on full scholarships in BB? I know soccer tends to have a lot of partials.

And if we ever wish to add new sports like baseball or swimming or a host of other sports then we'd need all of the financial help available. I think VB is something that could take off at CU personally.

 

[DBT]

Isn't CU one of the least compliant title IX schools around? Are female players even on full scholarships in BB? I know soccer tends to have a lot of partials.

And if we ever wish to add new sports like baseball or swimming or a host of other sports then we'd need all of the financial help available. I think VB is something that could take off at CU personally.

Either you are compliant or you aren't. CU is.

 

[AeroBuff99]

Isn't CU one of the least compliant title IX schools around? Are female players even on full scholarships in BB? I know soccer tends to have a lot of partials.

And if we ever wish to add new sports like baseball or swimming or a host of other sports then we'd need all of the financial help available. I think VB is something that could take off at CU personally.

Women's basketball and volleyball are head count sports, you can't have partials in head count sports. Women's Basketball is also allotted more scholarships than men's.
To be in full title ix compliance you have to demonstrate equal athletic opportunity for both men and women, usually by having equivalent numbers of scholarships. Because football has such a large number of scholarships, you have to add women's sports to bring there numbers up before you can add any men's sports. However, schools can get in trouble if they drop men's sports as courts have determined that the intent was not to eliminate opportunities for men, but to increase them for women.

 

[Buffnik]

Isn't CU one of the least compliant title IX schools around? Are female players even on full scholarships in BB? I know soccer tends to have a lot of partials.

And if we ever wish to add new sports like baseball or swimming or a host of other sports then we'd need all of the financial help available. I think VB is something that could take off at CU personally.

No.

Where you probably got the "one of the least compliant" things from was based on the scholarship numbers and how Title IX is calculated. When CU had the fewest number of varsity sports possible while still remaining D1, men's and women's scholarships were too far out of balance for Title IX compliance due to the 85 scholarships for football tilting the wheel too far toward men's scholarships. This is the big reason that W-LAX was added as a varsity sport since it brought CU within an acceptable ratio. There is no issue with full or partial scholarships, it's just the norm that many sports have more roster spots than the NCAA allows full rides for so players end up getting partial schollies in most sports.

fwiw, I think if CU were going to invest in a new stadium/arena for any new sport the only one that might be worthwhile because I think it could make money at CU would be ice hockey, not baseball. Either way, the only way either of those happen would be if a huge booster stepped up to pretty much endow the whole thing or, in the case of baseball, if they went forward with the idea of sponsoring NCAA Baseball through a big financial agreement with colleges that would offset a lot of the costs (that idea's a few years old and may not have gotten traction, though LINK).

 

[buff4bcs1985]

No.

Where you probably got the "one of the least compliant" things from was based on the scholarship numbers and how Title IX is calculated. When CU had the fewest number of varsity sports possible while still remaining D1, men's and women's scholarships were too far out of balance for Title IX compliance due to the 85 scholarships for football tilting the wheel too far toward men's scholarships. This is the big reason that W-LAX was added as a varsity sport since it brought CU within an acceptable ratio. There is no issue with full or partial scholarships, it's just the norm that many sports have more roster spots than the NCAA allows full rides for so players end up getting partial schollies in most sports.

Fwiw, I think if CU were going to invest in a new stadium/arena for any new sport the only one that might be worthwhile because I think it could make money at CU would be ice hockey, not baseball. Either way, the only way either of those happen would be if a huge booster stepped up to pretty much endow the whole thing or, in the case of baseball, if they went forward with the idea of sponsoring NCAA Baseball through a big financial agreement with colleges that would offset a lot of the costs (that idea's a few years old and may not have gotten traction, though LINK).

Would you do so to replace the CEC or have a separate small Ice Hockey Arena

 

[Buffnik]

Would you do so to replace the CEC or have a separate small Ice Hockey Arena

I like the setup at AFA where it's one structure but the basketball arena is separate from a smaller hockey arena. Sight lines get compromised when you try to do both sports on the same floor.

 

[MtnBuff]

An on campus facility would be great for hockey but with the cost and limited available space it would be expensive.

A much more cost effective solution would be to build an on-campus practice facility and play home games in the arena in Broomfield. CC does this in the Springs with the World Arena and it works well for them.

Considering parking issues it may be faster for most people in Boulder to go to Broomfield and park than to get to an on-campus arena in Boulder.

 

[DBT]

Baseball. But we digress.

I'm not a WBB fan but I am a CU all thing sports fan. I follow how all the teams are doing and take pride in them doing well. I pay a lot more attention to the teams that are winning. (I'm bummed the ski team lost a top woman Nordic skier). I'd probably only watch a WBB game if it were in a tourney. And I admit, it bugs me to sacrifice men's sports because of Title IX. When we dumped wrestling, we were a national Top 10 program. Ridiculous.

 

[MtnBuff]

Baseball. But we digress.

I'm not a WBB fan but I am a CU all thing sports fan. I follow how all the teams are doing and take pride in them doing well. I pay a lot more attention to the teams that are winning. (I'm bummed the ski team lost a top woman Nordic skier). I'd probably only watch a WBB game if it were in a tourney. And I admit, it bugs me to sacrifice men's sports because of Title IX. When we dumped wrestling, we were a national Top 10 program. Ridiculous.

Good post (other than the baseball mention)

In principle I agree with the concept of Title IX, my daughters should have the same opportunities to participate in sports as my son. The problem is that they ignore that football pays the bills and have damaged colleges sports in general by trying to balance football.

You are right about wrestling, CU absolutely should have a program.

To the thread though, CU should have high expectations in women's BB, there is talent here in Colorado and CU has been able to recruit WBB effectively nationally. Past success shows it can be done. The new facilities should add to that ability. Past success has also shown that the community will support it when the product is good.