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Is their a change beginning in admin philosophy?

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by DBT, Dec 31, 2009.

  1. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I haven't thought this out too much, but, given the firings of Mangino and Leach and the retaining of Hawkins, I'm wondering if some universities are deciding that "playing with the big boys" is, first, too costly, and second, not in keeping with the mission of the university.

    The one thing that saved Hawkins was that he had turned around the perception of the program. The one thing that got Mangino and Leach fired is that they were "out of control" and, maybe, creating a bad impression of the programs. Also, NCAA football has gotten so competitive, that there has been a "funding war" raging. This is a war in which only a handful of programs can hope to compete.

    I think we are beginning to see a change in philosophy among administrators. That is, that a football program must meet a certain level of standards academically, morally, and, to a lesser degree now, competitively. What happened at CU after the scandal is that they sat back and said, "wait a minute, this thing is out of control. We want to win, but these are students first. We need to insure that these young men are prepared academically, represent the school well, and then win.

    I think that a lot of programs are looking at the "win at all costs" big boys and saying, "Enough!" Take FSU for example. They had 25 or 30 players suspended for cheating on exams. Many programs will let almost any type of kid in if he's an athlete, regardless of character or academic ability. Coaches like Leach are beginning to see themselves in an almost untouchable role. They, like Leach, feel that if they win, the boosters and fans will protect them and, therefore, they can get away with anything.

    Anyway, I just typed that without thinking about it much. I'm sure you could do a god damned thesis on the subject arguing well for both sides of the issue. The question is, though, is there a change coming in NCAA athletics?
     
  2. FChairbanks

    FChairbanks muthaka slayer Club Member

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    i've noticed that some of your more cogent posts occur when you don't think much...
     
  3. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    :lol: Yeah, thinking gets me in trouble.
     
  4. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    I don't think it's really much of an issue. Had those two coaches not been doing unacceptable things to their players they'd still have a job. Those schools don't seem to care at all about their academic issues and such. Wasn't Briscoe ruled academically ineligible before the season, only to magically become eligible? CU keeping Hawk seems to be more of an issue with public perception of spending by the University. Pay a guy $3 million to go away while asking for a whole lot more than that from the state is what seems they were trying to avoid. I think how Hawk has done it all correctly in everything but on the field also played a part. As much as I don't care for what Hawk has done on the field, he has done a pretty decent job of repairing the reputation of the University off of the field. He could stand to do a little better in the public speaking arena, but he has bigger issues right now, specifically winning some games or he's gone next year regardless of how good he does off the field.
     
  5. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I don't think it is just academics. To be a DI program, you have to have something like 12 DI sports. Most of these are a huge drain on programs. I think there are a lot of schools out there that are reevaluating the economic feasiblity of pouring money into football and baketball. Its a huge balancing act. Spend enough to compete but retain enough profit to support a DI program. Given the economics of the day, that is getting more and more difficult for all but a handful of programs.
     
  6. FChairbanks

    FChairbanks muthaka slayer Club Member

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    what the administrators at CU and many major universities fail to see (IMHO) is the ongoing connection between alumni and the university. this connection is (IMHO) borne out in the athletic programs. give up on athletic programs and you may as well say goodbye to a huge portion of alumni dollars. i think we are in stage one of that right now.
     
  7. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    I agree, but I also see a disturbing trend developing here. I think it's entirely plausible that the CU administrators are fully aware of the connection between alumni & athletics, and are simply not able to fund athletics the way it should be. They're faced with an incredibly difficult situation. They realize (I think) that by de-emphasizing athletics, that they're going to be losing a lot of future donations. But they can't justify the expense to keep athletics relevant. Look at UT giving Mack Brown $5MM/Year. FIVE MILLION A YEAR!!! That's crazy money. There comes a time when you say "I quit". I think CU is at that point right now. I also think it sucks.
     
  8. FChairbanks

    FChairbanks muthaka slayer Club Member

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    so...catch 22 ?

    i don't think we are at the "i quit" stage yet. athletics is a big part of the CU, Boulder, and Colorado culture. i think we are at a tipping point though...
     
  9. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    Yeah I see what you mean, I just don't know if that's what TT and KU were doing. I mean I guess Gill is making less than Mangino was, so that saves the University some money, whoever TT hires will make less than Leach was. I get what you mean about sports that aren't football and bball, I can't imagine very many schools even make money on having those sports around.

    I just think it sucks that money is playing such a big part in college sports these days. I'd much rather see schools all play on an even playing field rather than have schools like Texas who are just dumping millions upon millions into their football program alone. Then again maybe I'm just bitter.
     
  10. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Perhaps, but when you see schools like Texas shelling out $5MM a year for a coach, and ND paying a guy $18MM to walk away, that has to give you pause. There's absolutely no way CU would ever pay a coach that much. And clearly if they won't pay $3MM for a guy to walk away, then there's no way they'd ever pay $18MM. There's a cost/benefit analysis taking place all the time, and the costs - both current and projected - are outweighing the benefits. When you get to that point, you're foolish to continue throwing good money after bad.

    And I think that sucks - hard. I want CU football to be great again, but I see the writing on the wall.
     
  11. FChairbanks

    FChairbanks muthaka slayer Club Member

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    there will always be underdogs. and cu will always be one of them.

    i grew up in the denver area. i tend to root for the underdog...

    :gobuffs:
     
  12. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    I suppose if it gets really bad, the NCAA could step in and impose some spending caps. We have a situation where even a school like Michigan can't hope to compete, financially, with schools like ND & UT. Parity has done wonders for the NFL, and that parity was brought about by salary caps.
     
  13. FChairbanks

    FChairbanks muthaka slayer Club Member

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    i am sure the ncaa would love to control the money too...


    ...moreso than they already do that is.
     
  14. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    These things always swing like a pendulum one direction then the other. While I don't agree with Benson and his crew I understand what they are doing. The state is under tremendous pressure financially and even though the athletic budget is separate from state funding they are very concerned about the perception in a time of slashing budgets. When the economy comes back and we somehow replace TABOR with something realistic and workable then CU administration will again focus on those things that highlight and bring positive attention to the university, and sports have been the most effective tool to do that.

    That stated, even without the restraints created by TABOR it is realistic to think that other states and universities are facing many of the same issues. Down economies resulting in pressure on public support as well as reduced giving by donors. For schools like TT and KU they could have seen this as the time to reduce the probability of negative attention and show the politicians and the voters who drive them that they are being "prudent and responsible."

    This doesn't mean that there is some magical change and TT, KU, FSU, etc. are suddenly going to start competing with Harvard and Yale for football players but it does mean that someone is trying to manage perceptions. When it is in their interest to say "forget perception, let's kick some butt on the field." then things will swing back the other way.

    Remember that to politicians things don't have to make sense, they just have to make sense politically. That is the world we are in right now. For UT, as long as they are winning they are teflon coated politically in Texas, for a lot of other schools that is not the case.
     
  15. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    A big factor coming into play here is the success of the mid-major types of schools. Schools like Utah, Boise St., Cincinatti, etc are probably making a statement to the CU's of the world that you can have a different model and still be successful. It is really akin to the Rockies vs. the Yankees kind of thing. "Lets stop trying to compete with Texas and figure out a model that'll work." I stil believe that if CU can begin winning, they will attract top players. That brings us to "standards" then. CU is trying to be a lot more selective in the kids they bring in, so they have to be able to hit gold with maybe lesser perceived talent coming out of high school. I still believe CU has more to offer a kid than most schools in the country. That is what they have to sell.
     
  16. DrunkPanda

    DrunkPanda Active Member

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    what exactly did he do to repair the reputation of the school? all he had to do was not cause a scandal of his own, and he did that. but any other coach we could have wanted would have done the same
     
  17. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    i have also wondered a bit about the contention dbt makes in the orig post.

    with that said, turner gill and that staff he assembled are going to kick the crap out of us for years to come if we continue to decide to not care about sports at CU.

    i suspect ttu will hire someone good too.
     
  18. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    Well I guess you might be right, the players have not had any major incidents, Hawk and his staff come off as "good" guys, all that crap. It just seems to me like nobody refers to CU as the school with the rapists anymore. Maybe anyone could have done it, although some come to mind that probably would not have.. a certain Sun Devil.. Either way don't get me confused with a Hawk apologist, I wanted him gone and I think it's a major mistake that he was retained, but hell what can we do except hope he proves us all wrong next year? As for the any other coach thing, maybe you didn't want him, but I thought he'd come in and tear it up at CU. I was wrong. Who knew 4 years ago BCS coaching experience is probably pretty important, coaches that walk into previously successful situations aren't the golden ticket, etc. All I can hope is that Bohn is also learning from previous mistakes regarding the hiring of coaches.
     
  19. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    Yeah, a lot of coaches would have as well. I think what Hawkins is "perceived" to have done is tighten up things. He' implemented his "two strike" policy across the board. He's suspended players for not having academics in order. He has implemented his "accountability groups," and so forth. But, on the other hand, I know that there are a lot of guys that still like to party. :smile:
     
  20. IDBUFF

    IDBUFF Active Member

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    Maybe it is time to take the CU gear to the Goodwill or maybe just start rooting for the choir and chamber orchestra
     
  21. Wise Old Man

    Wise Old Man Member

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    or cross country....
     
  22. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    i think the more telling rationale is that CU fans will do whatever they can to blame "the academics" for on the field failures. it's been like that since i started reading and posting on fan sites in about 1998. we have people suggesting that Benson is a "liberal academic" to justify their own petty conspiracy theory about everything that happens in Colorado football and the world at large.....Benson is neither a liberal nor an academic but what you do have is fanbase looking for a scapegoat.
     
  23. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    also, just my real point. University admins are not "academics". usually, they are PR wonks with TV hair or semi-failed politicians who are the guys who smile way too much when they shakes your hand at "the party".

    the ongoing idea that CU has some really powerful anti-football faction is one of the great enduring myths of Colorado fandom. i've worked at CU for almost a decade and i can tell you the actual faculty have very little "power" on campus.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  24. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    I don't dispute what you're saying here. However, the story we're getting is that Hawk was retained in order to save the academic integrity of the school. Well, that's not actually the story we're getting, but it's the between-the-lines explanation for why a school would elect to keep a coach who cannot be described as anything other than an abject failure.
     
  25. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    I think you're probably right with this comment, although I do think there is a kernel of truth to the Academics v Athletics argument... but probably not as a big a one as we are blowing it up to be
     
  26. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    If they quit, I quit. I'm not spending my money to support a team that doesn't care about winning. Hell, even Baylor is making strides towards winning.
     
  27. SuperiorBuff

    SuperiorBuff Well-Known Member

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    He has also drastically improved relations with the rest of the University. So now that all of the non-football people are happy let's find some middle ground and win some ****ing football games.
     

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