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Koetter, Hawk and Boise

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Buffarino, Nov 18, 2008.

  1. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    What is it about coaching at BSU that hasn't (so far) translated to success at bigger schools?

    Koetter was 26-10 at BSU. He was 40-34 at ASU and was fired at the end of the 2006 season.

    We all know about Hawk's gaudy 53-11 record at BSU, but he has seriously struggled at CU with a 13-23 record so far. We can argue all day long about the reason for the poor record, but it is what it is.

    I like Hawk and I still believe he will get things turned around at CU. But does anyone think there is a reason former BSU coaches haven't succeeded outside of BSU in the past 10 years or so? I'm not saying there is necessarily a reason, but the stark contrast of the success Koetter and Hawk had away from Boise (while BSU continues to thrive in the WAC) has me scratching my head. Clearly good coaches don't turn into bad coaches when they move to a different team.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. buffwings

    buffwings Club Member Club Member

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    Something else to look at is Bohn's hiring success as an AD. Not one of his hires has had very much success and all so far have losing records.
     
  3. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    Many Boise State faithful did not mind Hawkins leaving as long as Petersen didn't follow him. Petersen was Hawk's Offensive Coordinator starting in 2001. Coincidence??? Also, everybody's favorite Helfrich is a Koetter disciple.
     
  4. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    Maybe, but that's not what I was getting at.

    Clearly Hawk and Koetter had a lot of success at BSU. Why hasn't it translated to bigger schools?
     
  5. Bali Buff

    Bali Buff Well-Known Member

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    They play WAC-y ball. When you get to the bigger conferences, the players are bigger, faster and more physical. The gimmicky crap, and let's face it that's what we are playing now, doesn't work as your main scheme at this level.

    But probably the most important reason, the level of coaching in the Big XII or PAC 10 as in other big conferences, is 2X that of the WAC.

    Coaches from the WAC get promoted and go to the big conferences. Not the other way around. That should say it all right there.
     
  6. RalphieMalph

    RalphieMalph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, without Bohn those powerhouse programs at Idaho and San Diego State would be up to their eyeballs in national championships by now... :rolleyes:
     
  7. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    Bali - Good point. What about Urban Meyer? He is a "WAC-y" as they come. Pinkel is from Toledo, Tressel is from Youngstown State. Good coaches have to come from somewhere.

    Maybe I am saying that there was a man behind the curtain while Hawkins was at Boise.
     
  8. The Guest

    The Guest Guest

    I think Urban Meyer was Mountain West.
     
  9. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    Then who was behind the curtain for Koetter? Peterson has only been at BSU for 6 years. Koetter left after the 2000 season.
     
  10. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    I know - hence the quotes.
     
  11. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    Koetter was an O Coordinator prior to HC at Boise. I guess I am looking only at the offensive success of Boise rather than the overall record. However, the point I made earlier was that maybe Hawkins was not what made Boise go. I further believe this after reading his CU bio. He definitely has strengths which he has exhibited, but it is clear that he needs someone running the offense:

    Hawkins took over the Boise State program on December 2, 2000, replacing Dirk Koetter, whom he had served as assistant head coach, after he took the head coach position at Arizona State. Hawkins had joined the BSU staff in 1998, and coached the tight ends and special teams in addition to assistant head coach and recruiting coordinator duties. Hawkins also oversaw a highly successful community service and public involvement program for the Bronco football team during this time.
     
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  12. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    But again, why didn't Koetter's success at BSU translate to ASU? What made BSU go when Koetter was there?

    I don't know the answer, obviously, just wondering why their success hasn't translated when others (Meyer, Tressel, etc) have been able to take the smaller school winning and translate it to the bigger stage.
     
  13. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Hawk was 'da man for recruiting before he was the head coach.

    Koetter actually had ASU on the right track, but he totally messed up the QB deal by naming one guy the starter, then the next, and then back again. When they didn't play well that year, he was gone. But the truth is, he was building a good foundation, which takes awhile. Erickson came in and won big time last year with Koetter's recruits and he's a genius. Then comes this year, and he's a moron....

    Don't judge Hawkin's job here until he's got some players in place. The H-Bomb that destroyed the recruiting classes of 2004 and 2005 and the hiring of Hawk right before the 2006 class was signed leaves us with nothing at the top. If we are good next year, better the two following that, Hawk will be bringing in the studs like it's Big Mac all over again and everyone will be happy. Until then, this is a WORTHLESS thread.

    BTW, I know a lot of folks in Boise who weren't ok with Hawk leaving as long as Peterson stayed. They knew if they lost Peterson, then they were dead, b/c the rest of the staff took off to Boulder. That's called "Settling" for the lesser of two evils. No one I know there cheered Hawk leaving town. We can judge Peterson in 2 more years as his classes become Juniors/Seniors. Until then, he's playing with someone else's players. (and I think they will be fine btw).
     
  14. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    I don't know the answer either and I understand Buffaholic's point that Koetter was on the right track at ASU. I think Hawkins has done a very good job at rebuilding a foundation and recruiting. Strengths he exhibited at Boise. However, I think he has a weakness on offense and perhaps that should be addressed.
     
  15. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    he might not be the offensive genius we thought. In fact, I highly doubt he is from what I have seen...

    What he IS a genius at is building a team and program.. let's hope helfrich figures out how to be an Ocoordinator or we get someone in here who DOES know.
     
  16. SBG

    SBG Formerly known as EFNMB Club Member Junta Member

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    Tressel to OSU. Meyer to UF.

    Koetter to ASU. Hawk to CU.

    As much as I hate to say it, but CU isn't in the same category football-wise as OSU or UF. Neither is ASU.

    OSU and UF are career programs. Big-time boosters, great facilities, great fan support, great traditions and they are the premier programs in their states that have a LOT of home grown talent. Each are considered the class of their conference, even in down years. The expectations are also very lofty and programs like OSU and UF don't have patience to rebuild a program in the way that we are right now (especially after the severe stigma we had in '04-'05). Even in bad years these teams should do well. That doesn't always happen, but it's very rare to see a top tier-1 program have a losing season. UM, for example, recorded their first season with 8 losses! Considering how long they've played CFB that is very, very impressive.

    Yes, OSU took a gamble with Tressel and it paid off extremely well. With Meyer, well, what he did at Utah was outstanding. The thing is that when they do find a great coach, they don't leave. I can't say that with 100% certainty about our program, unless we find a guy that just adores Boulder and the University (which doesn't support the program as they do at other schools). They can do it because of the big time support and prestige; for example, Muschamp just signed an agreement to be the next UT HC when Brown retires and next year will be making what Hawk makes now next year as a DC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2008
  17. MiamiBuffs

    MiamiBuffs Wᴉɐɯᴉ qnɟɟs Club Member

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    That gimmickie stuff worked pretty good when BSU beat OU with Hawks recruits in the Fiesta Bowl. :thumbsup: You can see why Petersen was a genius that day; his team was overly prepared and he threw the kitchen sink at the Sooners. Obviously OU was not practicing the week before to play against some of that stuff. I'll never forget that some of their D players looked like a deer in the headlights.

    I think the success these guys have at BSU is attributed to the fact that very few WAC teams have a great defense and thus its easier to run the hair ball plays on a regular basis. That said BSU has a strong history, prior to Hawkins, of putting players in the NFL. That means they have consistantly had some level of talent on their sidelines.

    To coach in a BCS conferences you have to have a strong defense. I'm not sure these guys realize that when they make the transition from the there to here. I wanted Butch Davis. I think Hawk was a good hire in his absence and I am more than willing to give him two more years. His teams should be much better next year and should peak in 2010.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2008
  18. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    My two cents....

    I have had a lingering thought over the past few weeks.

    It always appeared to me that Boise State somehow got recruits that were just a cut above their competition. Maybe this success that Koetter and Hawkins enjoyed and now Peterson and joys, is more of a product of superior recruiting than great coaching.

    Now that the Koetter and Hawkins have ventured out into an area where the recruiting is on par, or better with respect to their competition, their star fades.

    Boise State has put quite a few players into the NFL recently. I really hope I'm wrong, but I'm wondering....
     
  19. 87toInfinity

    87toInfinity Well-Known Member

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    Didn't you know that Boise holds the world's largest population of unicorns?
     
  20. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

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    wasnt helfrich involved in this?
     
  21. SBG

    SBG Formerly known as EFNMB Club Member Junta Member

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    I've seen a lot of WAC/Sun Belt football and the players are just undersized compared to a BCS team. There are exceptions, but if a team has an average of 2.5 stars or so on a WAC team they will be at or near the top. There are great athletes for sure on WAC teams and some will make an impact in the NFL, but as a whole the teams are not as athletic. What I think is good about Hawkins here at CU though is that he brought the mentality that football is hard, blue-collar type work back.

    Oh, and trick plays will always work in college. UT ran their fake FG Shipley leap last week against KU. The only thing is that to run a trick play in the Big 12 you have to have great depth and many threats, unless it's a total and complete surprise (see OU at Fiesta bowl). We don't have either right now. It's the same with going for it on 4th down. While I hate it when Hawk goes for it sometimes, I do appreciate the fact that he is letting the offense know that he believes they can do it. Stoops, Brown, Carroll and Miles do it all the time, but again they have the talent and depth. We'll get there, but again it takes time. Remember when Carrol went for it on 4th down in the mNC against Texas? They get a first down though and they win and if they punt (which a lot of people said they should do) then I think VY wins it for Texas anyway.

    Offenses run the show in the WAC and scores tend to be in 40s or so, which is what the Big 12 has turned into :wow: so at this point that's almost moot. The defenses are just much, much, much better and don't make as many mental mistakes as they do in WAC play.
     
  22. SuperiorBuff

    SuperiorBuff Well-Known Member

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    QB coach and passing game coordinator, not OC.
     
  23. IDBUFF

    IDBUFF Active Member

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    I think alot of people resented Hawk leaving because they had given him everything he asked for and then he took off. That is aside from all the PC philosophical stuff about new challenges etc. I think some felt betrayed and there was some noise about the zen stuff wearing thin year in and year out. I think everyone respected Hawk and he could have stayed and been an icon like JoPa (although on a much smaller stage).

    I think that winning in more competitive conferences is much harder. BSU owns the WAC, they keep their schedule pretty tame (compared to Fresno State) and they have (maybe most importantly) no competition form other sports in this metro area - a few semi pro teams but none with the success of BSU that came at a time of growth in the valley. Newcomers adopted the biggest show in town - BSU. If you look at any program among the elite - they have not won year in and year out. It is simply too difficult and the competition is too good - a little bad luck and your season can be over (Univ of Spoiled Children). I think this is the challenge Hawk sought - and found.

    I never got the impression Pete was seen as the lesser of two evils He is well respected here (Fiesta Bowl didn't hurt) and runs a class act. In spite of the diverse culture in Boise it is largely a conservative metro area that respects the BSU blue collar work ethic. Some wonder if Pete will look at a bigger school but he apparently likes the lifestyle here and the relative peace he has - we routinely see him out alone jogging and no one bothers him.

    Best of luck to Hawk - Pete is fits in as well or better than Hawk did.
     
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  24. utebuff

    utebuff Member

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    ID Buff...I appreciate your comments. Boise is just a few hours up the road from me, and I visit friends there pretty often. You are right about BSU being the only team around regarding football..

    Take my friends comments for what they're worth..but they do know a decent amount of football and the program there. btw..they liked Hawk, but simply love Peterson.

    They tell me that Hawk is not a good X and O guy...that is not his strength. He did do a good job recruiting to BSU...and they thought his assistants were the real strength of the staff from a football perspective (of course, that was at a lower level than the B12..and I think it is a valid point that BSU generally got some better talent than most of the other schools in their conference). They are surprised that Hawk hasn't had earlier success at CU..and think it will come.

    Speaking for myself..I agree with the comments above that Hawk is not a football genius. I think he is a well-above average manager and motivator of people. If he were in industry, he would probably be the CEO, and face of the company..but he would hire people much brighter than himself in key positions..and he would oversee and coordinate the whole thing.

    I think he needs the funds to attract some top-notch assistants to Boulder. I believe he is the almost perfect fit as the Head Coach here, because of his people and media skills. His present staff does not seem to be serving him well in the B12. Maybe they will grow..if not, I would like to see some supporter money allow some top specialist hirings.
     
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  25. Buttermaker

    Buttermaker Active Member

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    Excellent post. Rep delivered. I agree that Hawk is the right guy for this job. Particularly when it comes to umm... shall we say the unique challenges of coaching in Boulder. We need to get him Xs and Os help.
     
  26. buffwings

    buffwings Club Member Club Member

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    Yep. That chicken sh!+, @$$hat, POS, has neg rep me about 5 times, when I critique the staff. Never leaves a name because she's a little girl who cant stand up to people.

    There is only room for sunshinepumpers at this site. If you disagree with the way the program is going they want you to either shut up, keep it to your self, or take it somewhere else. Kindof like the media will never critique Obama, but everything will always be Bush's fault even long after he's gone. They are onesided, and so is this site.

    only positive remarks please or the phuckers who disagree with you or are in denial will chastise you. :huh:
     
  27. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    i used to post about this. that the "Boise playbook" and mojo and Pac-10 ya ya was never Hawk and when we changed offenses this year....it didn't really dispute that.

    we are terrible on offense. choose your explanation, but for 3 years we are terrible on O.
     
  28. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    I want to see how we do next year with a solid o-line,stewart scott full speed and other players helping like simas. Hawk seems to let the assistants coach and stays out of the way. It's obvious petersen was a good OC, does anyone know if he's still calling the offense at boise?
     
  29. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    stop being such a whining bitch.
     
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  30. Buffarino

    Buffarino Math - how does it work? Club Member

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    That's funny as hell coming from you, SnowBunny.:lol:
     

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