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Moneyball approach to former players as RB coaches

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by LABuffalo, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    In the book Moneyball it talked about how a Oakland A stud hitter couldn't make it happen initially after he was drafted by the the Boston Red Sox. Turns out he had his own style of doing things. Problem was that the Boston Hall of Famer, Jim Rice, was the hitting coach. Rice is a legend in Boston, much like Bienemy and Hagan are for the Buffs.

    Rice's approach was, "Hey, if you just try and be like me, you'll be great." Turns out people are individuals. Struggled the entire time for Boston and was let go or traded away. But once he got some Billy Beane ball at Oakland his career took off. You have to read the book to truly understand but you probably will get my point.

    Hagan has his job because of what he did back in the 80s. And the same was true of Bienemy. In their minds they are Colorado football. Afterall, they are responsible for the CU NC. Blue Chip recruits are not going to give more than a second thought about the past. These young guys live in the future. And maybe that is why both Hagan and Bienemy ended up clashing with the two highest rated RB recruits they've had in the last two decades.

    I don't know but I could see how these legacy hires are a bad idea. Are they true coaches or is it a deal where they're saying, "Just be like me and you'll be great." I have a feeling that is what's going on at CU. Personally since it hasn't worked out with the RBs like we'd hoped, I'd rather see a real coach be brought and see what he can do.
     
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  2. HornBuff

    HornBuff Horns Down

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    Great post. Moneyball is one of my fave books. Blind Side by Lewis is also great.

    IMO great players are often not very good coaches for the very reasons you pointed out. I think that applies to any and all sports.
     
  3. Nor Cal Buff

    Nor Cal Buff Well-Known Member

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    While Moneyball is a great book, I think you've missed the mark with Bieniemy. Dude was a great recruiter and a great coach. See: Chris Brown and Maurice Jones-Drew. Also see his relationship with AD.
     
  4. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I think you had a pretty decent point until you brought Eric Bieniemy into the argument. I think his resume speaks for itself. He seems to have done all right with other talented RBs and is now coaching in the NFL. Their is no comparison between he and Hagan when it comes to RB production.
     
  5. canuck_buff

    canuck_buff Active Member

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    I am on the fence with Hagan honestly. The man can recruit and nobody knows about passion and winning like he does when it comes to CU. But lately there is all these whispers and why is that ? Part of me hopes it is because we have a bunch of sucks on the team who do not like being pushed. But time is going to sort this out just like most things do .
     
  6. HornBuff

    HornBuff Horns Down

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    Something is not 100% right when two of the most highly recruited running backs in the nation transfer out. You don't see that very often for aplayer of that caliber, much less two at the same position.
     
  7. El Gringo

    El Gringo Pura Vida Club Member

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    The fact that Houston and Scott are at the same position is purely coincidence.

    But your point is well taken. Hiring legendary figures in a program is risky business, particularly if they are untested like Hagen.
     
  8. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

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    Mack brown Curse?
     
  9. HornBuff

    HornBuff Horns Down

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    I don't think so. I'm not a big believer in coincidence. This is pure speculation here, but I think there is a little ego thing going on with the former great players wanting to put the young studs in their place or ride them hard. I could be way off base, but that's just my opinion.
     
  10. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    Again though, Bieniemy's track record speaks for itself. He may have had issues with Houston, but he made Chris Brown a Big 12 superstar (still in the NFL). He also managed to take a highly regarded guy at UCLA in Maurice Jones-Drew and helped him develop into a superstar.
     
  11. HornBuff

    HornBuff Horns Down

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    True.

    I think it could be possible that they treat the big, stud superstar, #1 recruits a little differently, especially if he/they see these guys as being soft in any way. I really don't know what I'm talking about. I read bits and pieces about Houston and it seemed like the totally wrong approach for the kid. We saw his potential, especially in that game agaisnt SC. Who knows?
     
  12. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    Bienemy didn't recruit Chris Brown or Bobby Purify and both were good to great RBs before he got here. You could say they made him look good. Not sure if EB recruited Houston. I have a feeling he didn't. But clearly Houston did not respond to EB as a coach. Eric did recruit Brian Calhoun, but he never did anything here or at Wisconsin or the pros for that matter.

    Not too sure about Hagan's ability to recruit. Especially with his biggest recruit leaving. Hagan hasn't done much that I can think of beyond D. Scott. Things not working out to well in the backfield as far as I can tell.
     
  13. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

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    You are nuts he was the man as wiscy, here are the nothing stats:

    1,636 yards
    348 carries
    22 touchdowns,
     
  14. Nor Cal Buff

    Nor Cal Buff Well-Known Member

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    Botched attempt at sarcasm?
     
  15. dyemeduke

    dyemeduke Well-Known Member

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    Not all players are going to respond well to EB's coaching, but it seems like most do. The fact that he didn't recruit Brown and Purify into CU speaks more about his coaching abilities than if he had brought them in. They were foreign players to him, and he helped maximize their potential. I completely disagree they were on their way to being great before EB.

    Hagan is a legend, and I really hope that he improves as a coach. However, rumblings are that he really isn't that great of a coach, and he could use some tutoring on coaching. DScott I think would have thrived under EB; I think Hagan's quote was, "I didn't push him hard enough", and even though a lot of people think DS sucked it up, I don't. I think he came in out of shape but willing to work. He got injured unforunately. EB would have gotten him to maximize every bit of his skill.

    I hope that EB comes back to CU one day, as he has said he dreams of one day doing.
     
  16. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    I stand corrected. But why didn't Calhoun put those kind of numbers up at CU?
     
  17. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    Let's not forget that CU also had a great Oline when EB was coaching. They had players like Andre Gurode and Victor Rogers as well as Steve Marshall as the Oline coach. Maybe he is a great RB coach, but he had a ton of help at Colorado.
     
  18. HotRack

    HotRack Rez BubbleHead Club Member

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    Justification for EB being a coach - save the last couple of games...Adrian Peterson, 'nuff said. If more proof needed - Maurice Jones-Drew and what he's doing in JAX.

    Surprised I haven't seen it mentioned here, but remember EB recruited MJD to CU, then MJD followed EB to fUCLA when Dorrell hired him away. MJD a good example of a guy EB recruited, coached, and is now EXCELLING at the next level.
     
  19. HornBuff

    HornBuff Horns Down

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    Which has a greater impact on the performance of a running back? OL coach or RB coach?

    Seems like RB is more of an intuitive position. You got it or you don't, maybe?

    Even if you've got it it's kind of hard to run through holes that aren't there.
     
  20. SuperiorBuff

    SuperiorBuff Well-Known Member

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    Watch his game against Cornholio. He was awesome.
     
  21. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    Fair enough. Then what is Marcus Houston? Houston was higher rated then MJD. EB ruined MH's career. Also, according to Colin Cowherd this morning "Minnesota has a tough time running the ball."

    Point of this whole thread is that it is a mistake to hire former players based on what they did in the past. In Hagan's and EB's case they both ran off 5 star recruits. The question is why is that happening? My argument is that based on what Hagan did in the 80s he's gotten de facto lifetime employment on the football team. He wasn't a coach before he got there and hasn't had any success since he'd been there. He got over on Darrell Scott to commit to CU. But once here he saw what Hagan was all about and left the team. And what Hagan is about is that he is Colorado football. He is the standard by which everyone else must be measured.

    If any of Hawk's coaches should be let go, it should be Darian Hagan, first and foremost.
     
  22. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    On second thought, I don't stand corrected. Are you telling me that 1,636 yard on 348 carries is good. Doesn't that work out to something like .212 yards a carry? And 22 tds on 348 carries works out to .06 percent.

    348 carries and only 1,636 yards is not good. But maybe that's good enough to be the man in Wisconsin.
     
  23. LABuffalo

    LABuffalo Member

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    Was EB his coach during that game. No I don't think so.
     
  24. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    :thumbsup::wtf::confused:

    :congrats:
     
  25. zbuff

    zbuff Club Member Club Member

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    :rofl2: you really should use the calculator on your computer instead of the one in your head, cuz yeah, 4.7 yd/carry and almost 2 TDs per game really sucks
     
  26. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    Holy ****, you have to try pretty hard to be as stupid as LA Buffalo has been in this thread. EB was absolutely Calhoun's coach when he went off against Nebraska. And you might be the first person I have ever heard call a 1,600 yard/22 TD rushing season "not good". Ranking 6th in the country in yards rushing per game is pretty bad.:rofl2:
     
  27. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    Great players rarely make great coaches. This is because they had as players a combination of great talent and an internal drive that made them the performers they were. The old saying is true and can be expanded "you can't teach speed." or natural size, strength, quickness, etc. Sumler is a hardworking smart guy but he will never be Adrian Petterson no matter how hard he works or who coaches him. The best he can do is be the best him he can be. When you ask great players how they did something they often cannot tell you, they just did it. I remember after David Thompson had dunked over a 7+ foot center known for blocking shots he was asked about the play. He responded "I jumped up there and when I saw he was there I just had to go a little higher." This is stuff you can't coach. What Haggan did on the field was often pure magic but I don't know that you can coach a lot of it.

    EB was a great college player, lots of awards and all of them deserved. The advantage he has as a coach is that he spent 10 years in the NFL where he wasn't anything special. He stuck around because he applied himself to learning as much as he could about every aspect of the game he might ever see. He learned the running game, he learned the passing game, he was a performer on every special team imaginable. He put everything he had into knowing every detail that might effect his game and never let himself be outworked.

    A lot of the top coaches have the same experience at some level as EB did in the pros. They can understand hardwork, preparation, effort, taking advantage of opportunity. An advantage that EB has is that he also experienced being a star and can relate to being on of the top talents as well.
     
  28. dyemeduke

    dyemeduke Well-Known Member

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    :wow::smile2::rofl::rofl2:
     
  29. absinthe

    absinthe Ambitious but rubbish. Club Member Junta Member

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    Here are Calhouns other stats at wiscy for you two clowns.

    258 yards in one game
    4.7 yards per carry,
    8- 100 yard games
    4 games of 150+
    125 yards per game and 22 TD's
    Wisconsin's single season scoring record
     
  30. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    :rofl::laugh:

    LABuffalo must have been well into his favorite adult beverage. That and/or he was a humanities major because he never did a statistics class.
     

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