Lt.Col.FrankSlade
Well-Known Member
If this goes through, it is the end of college football and basketball as we know it. The number of schools who can survive in this environment is extremely limited.
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Northwestern players are trying to get a union started
- Thread starter TDbuff
- Start date
If this goes through, it is the end of college football and basketball as we know it. The number of schools who can survive in this environment is extremely limited.
CBS Sports article discussing the tax implications. It sounds like there may be some loop holes to avoid taxation, but it might require jumping through some hurdles like having to take a degree program related to the scholarship activity...like say a physical education program that CU doesn't have, which in turn might mean guys might actually have to double major if they had any interest in getting an education in something other than the fig leaf program.
http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaaf/wri...lay-cfb-union-could-get-slammed-with-tax-bill
http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaaf/wri...lay-cfb-union-could-get-slammed-with-tax-bill
Lt.Col.FrankSlade
Well-Known Member
With this ruling by the NLRB, what's to stop the IRS from going after every one of Northwestern's players for the value of their scholarships - immediately?
This decision is far from final. The NCAA and Northwestern will no doubt appeal it to the national board ... this decision was rendered by the regional board. Not to mention that NLRB decisions can be appealed to the federal courts. In short ... a final resolution of this issue could take years.
...and if anyone was on the fence about this issue and waiting for a push one way or another...
So, if the argument is their "job" pay is based on performance, I assume that is because their scholarships are renewed annually and could be discontinued if they don't perform. So, if they make the scholarship a 4 or 5 year one time contract not based on performance, does that argument go away?
Are academic scholarships now going to be considered income?
Are academic scholarships now going to be considered income?
I question how effectively a union membership made up of teenagers and kids in their early 20's can govern themselves and advocate for the rights of their fellow players against big ADs while playing football, and going to school. Particularly since membership is only 4-5 years. I wonder who the "grown ups" will be in this scenario.
BYU players
Big fail to Northwestern's attorneys for trying to contend that the players are "temporary employees" rather than going the route of establishing that players have an academic relationship to the school, which overshadows any economic relationship. The precedent was there. For every Johnny Maziel, there are thousands of Stevie Joe Dormans.
two possible near-term and possibly unforeseen outcomes I note (only partly TIC):
1. since the players insist they're paid employees, the IRS hits them with a tax bill ($63k/year total attendance cost per university website)
2. since the players insist they're paid employees, the NCAA rules them ineligible
Also, IANAL, but as I understand it, one of the key arguments was Colter claiming that football took 40 - 50 hours/week during the season. If he stands by this claim that the hours were required, I think NU could get into NCAA trouble for blowing past the 20 hour/week limit. If he backs off that and claims the hours were voluntary, then the grounds for the NLRB ruling become invalid. Am I confused here or are both he and NU in a pickle over this?
Last, I'm not highly informed on this subject, but from my understanding of organized labor, the one real lever that unions have to pull is to strike. What are the consequences to NU if the players strike? NU forfeits games until they find enough players who will play for a scholarship.
Spoiled private school brats.
1. since the players insist they're paid employees, the IRS hits them with a tax bill ($63k/year total attendance cost per university website)
2. since the players insist they're paid employees, the NCAA rules them ineligible
Also, IANAL, but as I understand it, one of the key arguments was Colter claiming that football took 40 - 50 hours/week during the season. If he stands by this claim that the hours were required, I think NU could get into NCAA trouble for blowing past the 20 hour/week limit. If he backs off that and claims the hours were voluntary, then the grounds for the NLRB ruling become invalid. Am I confused here or are both he and NU in a pickle over this?
Last, I'm not highly informed on this subject, but from my understanding of organized labor, the one real lever that unions have to pull is to strike. What are the consequences to NU if the players strike? NU forfeits games until they find enough players who will play for a scholarship.
Spoiled private school brats.
BlackNGold
Club Member
The 20 hour limit is for coaching contact time - practice. Independent Film study and weight room time is done outside of the contact time. Just like the 7 on 7 drills during the off-season. So players could be focusing on Football 40 hours a week and not violate the 20 hour rule. I think the time is a lot less during the off season.
yes, it's 8 hours/week in the offseason
your response prompted me to do some quick research. I found this on Notre Dame's site (a school well practiced at staying just within NCAA guidelines).
They claim weight training, team meetings and review of game film hours count towards the 20.
Not sure why I couldn't immediately find the NCAA source.
your response prompted me to do some quick research. I found this on Notre Dame's site (a school well practiced at staying just within NCAA guidelines).
They claim weight training, team meetings and review of game film hours count towards the 20.
Not sure why I couldn't immediately find the NCAA source.
I heard that too, I'm kind of skeptical on that.
Yeah, it's sounds like semantics - call it a grant and they can't tax it? The athletes want to be considered employees for purposes of obtaining health insurance, workers comp, and collectively bargaining with the schools an ADs, but their "compensation" in the form of scholarships, room and board, meals, travel, etc should be off limits to Uncle Sam? Sounds like a sweet deal if you can get it.
I agree with those that say this is both inevitable and that it is going to be highly regrettable. I can be sympathetic to the athletes position while also realizing there may end up being 15-20 schools total that can afford to straight up pay football players a salary and still balance their budgets. Basketball is easier to pull off because you have what - 12 players on scholarship?
The other piece of this is hopefully it doesn't change so quickly that there are no rules. One of the key reasons for the NFL's success is the salary cap and parity between teams. If colleges are not careful when this floodgate opens, the differences between the haves and have nots will be much worse than it is today, ruining college football.
The other piece of this is hopefully it doesn't change so quickly that there are no rules. One of the key reasons for the NFL's success is the salary cap and parity between teams. If colleges are not careful when this floodgate opens, the differences between the haves and have nots will be much worse than it is today, ruining college football.
Yep, and the big difference is the NFL has the draft, while college has the sh*tshow that is recruiting. That'll always be the issue--if they regulate pay and add some type of salary cap, recruiting will always provide the gray area for cheating the system.
I suspect that if this is upheld as "law" The NCAA will simply eliminate scholarships all together. Some schools will probably drop football altogether if they have to pay a salary. Title IX will come under pressure. I'll be interested if the IRS moves to tax the scholarships of union players declared employees
This is the first article I've seen that wasn't all puppy dogs and ice cream about the ruling.
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/college-sports-unions-careful-what-you-wish-n64176
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/college-sports-unions-careful-what-you-wish-n64176
Whoever said "Pandora's box" was exactly right. What will be the end result is basically Minor League NFL. The way I see it, the schools that can afford it will want/have to create an organization like the NCollegeFL. The university AD's will be owners. The university teams will be franchises of the NCFL. They will no longer be scholarship athletes. They will be athletes. I could see it very quickly becoming in the best interest of the NCFL to discontinue the notion of requiring players to attend and succeed in their classes.
Outside of college football it will have huge implications. It will reduce the amount of available talent to the NFL, watering down the product. It will reduce the total amount of positions available to HS athletes thus making wide spread HS football virtually pointless.
Outside of college football it will have huge implications. It will reduce the amount of available talent to the NFL, watering down the product. It will reduce the total amount of positions available to HS athletes thus making wide spread HS football virtually pointless.
pcbuff
Well-Known Member
Title nine will be blown up, they are employees and employees that lose money are gone. Then look for the plaintiff bar to go after academic scholarships. They are also paid employees.
My guess is that about 60% of schools make all sports club level.
All the revenue these universities bring in through sports is also not taxed. Take away 30%-50% to the feds and state and everyone but the Notre Dames and Texas's of the world are upside down.
I think we will see a bill indicating an exception to unionization rules comes down related to scholarship recipients of any sort and even the Dems will have to bite the bullet and sign the thing because of the slope this opens up. It's not just slippery, it could be an avalanche!
I could be wrong, but I would think that Title IX trumps some decision that the NLRB makes. Title IX can't just go away.
Correct. It has to do with equality in education. It's not going anywhere.
I can see it rolling out like this:
Football Players: "Yay, we have a Union! Northwestern, give us a potion of the football profit as payment."
NW: "That's nice and whatnot, but we can't give you that without give the women's rowing team the same thing..."
Kain Colter: "Hmmm, I didn't think of that. Let's get the other sports to join our union."
Players: "Yay, we have a big inclusive union! Northwestern, give us out share of the AD profit as payment."
Northwestern: "OK, you each get 1/500th of jack ****."
Kain Colter: "Hmmm, I din't think of that."
IRS Agent: "Players, let's talk about those scholarships, housing, and meals."
Kain Colter: "Hmmm, I didn't think of that."
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I think it at most pertains to collegiate athletes at private institutions. Not positive though.
This ruling is specific to NW -- you're right.
What you probably heard is that the arguments that apply here wouldn't apply at a public schools, only private ones. This ruling is specific to Northwestern University.
What you probably heard is that the arguments that apply here wouldn't apply at a public schools, only private ones. This ruling is specific to Northwestern University.