Apparently Robert Cartwright, Michael Humphrey, Reid Travis, Josh Sharma, Cameron Walker and Trevor Stanbeck don't seem to mind.
But hey, 6 -1 isn't a bad score, we're "building"
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Official 2016 Bubble Watch Thread
- Thread starter Buffnik
- Start date
But hey, 6 -1 isn't a bad score, we're "building"
I bet they do mind. Every one of those NIT seasons was an abject failure. Missed the NCAAT with multiple NBA talents on the roster. Now the program has been passed by everyone in the conference not named Washington State.
Then why do they keep signing with them?
Shouldn't they be leaving them and coming to a 4/5 NCAAT team?
1) No one can transfer in conference.
2) Stanford offers a lot more than just a basketball experience. The degree pulls weight.
1) I wasn't saying transfer, I meant stop committing to a "losing" team and go where the tourney berths are.
My whole point on this is that I keep hearing "NCAAT is the best for recruiting" and "we don't have the talent to compete" yet our recruiting is going downhill, not up and we've made the tourney 4 out of the last 5 years.
Maybe we need a Launchpad year to get re-started. I don't think we are in a good place right now. Players don't see the PAC-12 tourney champs from 5 years ago, the team that won vs UNLV. They see the blowout loss to Pitt and not being able to win 2 games in a tournament we PAID to be in.
seattlebuff
Well-Known Member
Bro, I'm just about as pessimistic about the trajectory of the program as you are, and I take my share of heat from the brain trust on this board for it.
But gotta say ... you're off your meds if you think in any way, shape or form the NIT is better. Even if we get waxed in the first round every time, the Dance is always better. I think anyone on here would rather lose in the first round of the Dance than win the whole damn NIT. For this program, that is the goal starting every year now, and anything short of that is underperforming. Once we become a truly consistent tourney team, then we can talk about the next step ... winning in the tourney.
aghcsm
Well-Known Member
Yes, if we knew Pitt would blow us out by 30 we would have rather not gone. If we knew we'd lose in the CBI we would rather not have gone. If we knew we'd play well on the NIT and win it maybe we'd rather go.
Since we don't know these things ahead of time, we should go to the best tournament we can get into and hope to play well. Of course the NCAAs are always first choice.
Since we don't know these things ahead of time, we should go to the best tournament we can get into and hope to play well. Of course the NCAAs are always first choice.
I remember a conversation several years back on the football board where someone said it would be better to not make a bowl game. The rationale was that it allowed the team to get healed and into winter conditioning for next year more quickly. The NIT conversation is like that.
Going to the NIT is worse than GOING to the NCAAT. I'll buy that. I still won't buy that winning or doing damn well in the NIT is somehow worse than getting destroyed in the first round. And I'm saying the recruiting is bearing out my version over yours. We did well in the NIT, had a great recruiting season. Went and WON in the NCAAT, had another good recruiting season. Then 2 bad losses. 2 iffy recruiting seasons, which lead to last year's debacle, and now look at our recruiting.
Everyone wants to hang our hat on making the NCAAT. At least 12 teams make it every year that have no business being in the "top 64" - 16, 15 and 14 seeds. But the NCAA needs the money, so whatever.
If we can't get back to winning an NCAAT game more than once every 2 decades, we really aren't as good as people think we are.
That's the same as saying we shouldn't go to the NIT if we don't make the NCAAT. I completely disagree with that. This team NEEDS the practice, so why not play 2, 3, maybe 5 games?
That much practice isn't worth it
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
Don't you bitch about recruiting? Which do you think is a better sell? I'll clue you in: recruits don't dream of 18-14 seasons hosting Central Michigan in the NIT.
They apparently don't dream of 3 blowout losses in the NCAAT, either. They did seem to like the NIT final 4 drive, tho . . . We've won 20 in 2 of the last 3. It's gotten us exactly 1 4* recruit, one who most here think isn't living up to his billing. Last year we had to go to Europe to get ANY recruits. This year, it's the injury bucket.
Sorry, just making the NCAAT isn't doing it for us.
You are wrong, and making it to the nit won't do ****
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
But playing Central Michigan would be "doing it for us".
Apparently, neither WILL making it.
Again, making the final 4 DID do it for us. Maybe you'd like to give J40, XJ and Wes back. Maybe we could get a couple of Euro PFs like Guozonic in trade for them. Seems like an even trade.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
I'm sure their basis for choosing CU was solely because of the NIT. Had CU made the Dance, they'd have been highly concerned about the downward trajectory of the program. It's all about the NIT.
Basketball is different than football. The extra practices and games don't make up for the National perception gained, both from the media and recruits, that making the tourney brings. Lots of people of the East coast have probably never even seen CU play. And if they are in the NIT no one is watching those games. Preseason rankings and reputation mean a lot in basketball. Look how long it took for some teams to fall out of the rankings and how hard it was for others to make it in. Being in the top 25 means espn highlights and as ridiculous as it is that's where a lot of people see teams and establish opinions on them
Zandi should accept an invitation from Netbuffs because he's getting blown out here.
No, it was probably based on the UPWARD trajectory of the team at the time. Bolstered by the NIT run. Had they made the NCAAT THEN, it could have been good, depending on the outcome.
Making the NCAAT NOW, and getting blown out in it again, I don't think will do us much good. Recent recruiting evidence backs that up.
So glad you're following along. Too bad you aren't adding anything resembling an opinion in the debate.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
There is no debate.
You keep responding . . .
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
There's a difference between humor and debate
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
If we have a young and struggling, or transitional type of year, I can agree that instead of getting embarrassed in the 1st rd of the tournament, I'd take an NIT title (or at least championship game). It's not so much for any bragging rights, but I think the experience would help bring the team together and the extra practices in a tournament won't hurt. I also don't think winning the NIT one year every several will hurt recruiting - put it on par, if not above, with barely getting into the tournament and blown out. This is contingent on us being regular tournament qualifiers, so making the tournament is no longer a great achievement. This of course also takes foresight, and since we can't predict the future, never ever aim for the NIT...compete to win and win on the biggest stage.
As for the recruiting questions...I agree...we should be getting some bigger fish on paper. An NIT title will not help though, but...don't think it would be detrimental so long as it's infrequent.
As for the recruiting questions...I agree...we should be getting some bigger fish on paper. An NIT title will not help though, but...don't think it would be detrimental so long as it's infrequent.
CVilleBuff
Well-Known Member
We should toss the ASU game just to make sure we get that coveted NIT bid. The McDonalds All-Americans will be knocking Tad's doors down
They sure have been after our run of NCAAT berths.
I'm not saying we should be shooting for the NIT from the get go. I'm saying getting beat like a dead horse in the NCAAT isn't going to do us any good, either. This year, THIS YEAR, the NIT may be a better bet for us.
After watching the performance at UCLA, I'm not sure how everyone still thinks we are guaranteed the ASU win anyway.
You can't win in the NCAAT unless you are in the NCAAT. Kids dream of playing in the NCAAT and winning.
Winning in the NIT is better than not being in anything but it is never better than being in the NCAAT. Even if you lose you can sell a kid on the idea that you are a tourney team and that kid can be part of you being a winning tourney team.
Play in the NIT and you are perceived as an also ran, a not good enough to get into the tourney and thus small time.
You can also make an argument that repeated trips to the tourney identify you as a legit tourney team. They say it doesn't matter and the committee bases everything on this season but I would argue that at least sometimes seeding and even getting in is partially based on reputation and the NIT doesn't do that for you.
Winning in the NIT is better than not being in anything but it is never better than being in the NCAAT. Even if you lose you can sell a kid on the idea that you are a tourney team and that kid can be part of you being a winning tourney team.
Play in the NIT and you are perceived as an also ran, a not good enough to get into the tourney and thus small time.
You can also make an argument that repeated trips to the tourney identify you as a legit tourney team. They say it doesn't matter and the committee bases everything on this season but I would argue that at least sometimes seeding and even getting in is partially based on reputation and the NIT doesn't do that for you.
No doubt.
We apparently aren't very good at selling
I think you have to win, and move up in seeding in order to be considered a "legit" tourney team. Is Purdue a legit tourney team? They've been to 1 less NCAAT than us in the past 5 years, but have 2 wins.
They played in the CBI 2 years ago, and didn't make ANY tournament 3 years ago.
With respect to recruiting, I don't see much that backs up anyone's argument here. What I see is that CU has recruited well except when Tad has backed himself into a corner by shooting for the moon with some blue chip guards and then having to scramble to find a backup plan. Generally, he has recruited to a strong program with recent facility upgrades in a good conference and has benefited from the good pub from players getting drafted.
2010 Class, following an improved season after no one signed in fall and coaching change:
Ben Mills (spring addition Coach A had found while Bz polished his resume that year)
Andre Roberson (spring addition Coach A had found & Tad had offered at UNCo)
Sabatino Chen (transfer from DU Tad had first recruited at UNCo)
2011 Class, ahead of NIT run and using momentum from improvement & coaching change:
Damien Cain (highest rated player in class with the hat ceremony and all)
Spencer Dinwiddie (Top 150 guy CU held on for against late UCLA push)
Askia Booker (Top 25 CA who Tad took a flyer on)
Jeremy Adams (JUCO bounceback from aTm who was a former Top 150)
2012 Class, after the NIT run with Alec a lottery pick and Cory getting a UFA contract:
Josh Scott (in-state 4* Top 100 - around 50 iirc - who committed 3/3 before post-season started)
Wes Gordon (in-state Top 150 who committed 3/6 before post-season started)
Xavier Johnson (4* October commitment)
Xavier Talton (in-state 3* accepted in November after Buddy Hield committed to Oklahoma & Tyrone Wallace committed to Cal -- both OV'd to CU)
Chris Jenkins (Michigan G/F Tad took a flyer on - 12ppg and 46% 3pt for Detroit U this year)
Eli Stalzer (spring addition to class after coaches got nervous at XT's senior season)
2013 Class, after the Pac-12 title and 1st NCAAT appearance:
Tre'Shaun Fletcher (Top 150 type signed over Arizona State & Washington State OVs)
Jaron Hopkins (Top 150 type signed over Oregon State & Washington State OVs)
Dustin Thomas (late riser CU beat Oklahoma for)
George King (spring addition flyer Tad saw play when his traveling team had a game in CO)
2014 Class, after NCAA tourney and Dre drafted in 1st round:
Dominique Collier (in-state Top 100 signed over a bunch of P6 offers)
Tory Miller (prep school stash from 2013 CU signed over Arizona State, Iowa & Marquette OVs)
Josh Fortune (transfer from Providence after starting as a freshman for their NCAAT squad)
2015 Class, following NCAA tourney and Spencer drafted in 2nd round:
Tomas Akyazilli (spring signing after missing on Landry Shamet & Tyler Dorsey)
Kenan Guzonjic (spring signing after transfer decision by Dustin Thomas)
Derrick White (spring transfer after transfer decision by Jaron Hopkins)
2016 Class, following CBI disaster:
Deleon Brown (prep school stash from 2015 who is a leading scorer for powerhouse NH Prep)
Bryce Peters (Top 150 type who has blown up as a senior)
Dallas Walton (spring addition in-state skilled & athletic 7 footer recovering from injuries)
TBD (maybe Lucas Siewert, a stretch 4 who originally committed to Sendek at ASU)
2010 Class, following an improved season after no one signed in fall and coaching change:
Ben Mills (spring addition Coach A had found while Bz polished his resume that year)
Andre Roberson (spring addition Coach A had found & Tad had offered at UNCo)
Sabatino Chen (transfer from DU Tad had first recruited at UNCo)
2011 Class, ahead of NIT run and using momentum from improvement & coaching change:
Damien Cain (highest rated player in class with the hat ceremony and all)
Spencer Dinwiddie (Top 150 guy CU held on for against late UCLA push)
Askia Booker (Top 25 CA who Tad took a flyer on)
Jeremy Adams (JUCO bounceback from aTm who was a former Top 150)
2012 Class, after the NIT run with Alec a lottery pick and Cory getting a UFA contract:
Josh Scott (in-state 4* Top 100 - around 50 iirc - who committed 3/3 before post-season started)
Wes Gordon (in-state Top 150 who committed 3/6 before post-season started)
Xavier Johnson (4* October commitment)
Xavier Talton (in-state 3* accepted in November after Buddy Hield committed to Oklahoma & Tyrone Wallace committed to Cal -- both OV'd to CU)
Chris Jenkins (Michigan G/F Tad took a flyer on - 12ppg and 46% 3pt for Detroit U this year)
Eli Stalzer (spring addition to class after coaches got nervous at XT's senior season)
2013 Class, after the Pac-12 title and 1st NCAAT appearance:
Tre'Shaun Fletcher (Top 150 type signed over Arizona State & Washington State OVs)
Jaron Hopkins (Top 150 type signed over Oregon State & Washington State OVs)
Dustin Thomas (late riser CU beat Oklahoma for)
George King (spring addition flyer Tad saw play when his traveling team had a game in CO)
2014 Class, after NCAA tourney and Dre drafted in 1st round:
Dominique Collier (in-state Top 100 signed over a bunch of P6 offers)
Tory Miller (prep school stash from 2013 CU signed over Arizona State, Iowa & Marquette OVs)
Josh Fortune (transfer from Providence after starting as a freshman for their NCAAT squad)
2015 Class, following NCAA tourney and Spencer drafted in 2nd round:
Tomas Akyazilli (spring signing after missing on Landry Shamet & Tyler Dorsey)
Kenan Guzonjic (spring signing after transfer decision by Dustin Thomas)
Derrick White (spring transfer after transfer decision by Jaron Hopkins)
2016 Class, following CBI disaster:
Deleon Brown (prep school stash from 2015 who is a leading scorer for powerhouse NH Prep)
Bryce Peters (Top 150 type who has blown up as a senior)
Dallas Walton (spring addition in-state skilled & athletic 7 footer recovering from injuries)
TBD (maybe Lucas Siewert, a stretch 4 who originally committed to Sendek at ASU)
Back on topic: KSU's home loss to Texas dropped them to 15-13 and RPI 80. That just about eliminates them. They needed that one to get in the conversation. With a win, they'd have been 16-12 and around RPI 65 -- right in the Bubble conversation.