Official Game Thread: CU Buffs at ASU Sun Devils

[Quattro]

Yup if we had 2 seniors, Booker, Scott and Hopkins in our starting 5 things would be so different. The big question is what do we see from our freshman next year.

And for those of you expecting Dom to come in and play like Spencer did this year just stop. You will be disappointed again.

Will Whelan is very high on Collier, and Collier is a 4* recruit who is in the top 100 recruit who really only seems to have dropped because he's been on the scene for so long and thus the experts have had a lot of time to critique every part of his game, more so than other players. The only other two top 100 recruits? Josh Scott and Xavier Johnson. Will he be as good as Spencer was before his injury this year? Nah, extremely doubtful. Will he come in and make a big impact? Will seems to think so.

 

[Uncle Ken]

Where is Kevin Coyle to contribute and share information when we need him? His contribution is better than most these days. This place has turned into a miserable place that I used to enjoy.

A journey that begins when you respond to a tweet regarding a broken tranny in Trinidad seldom ends well.

 

[tante]

Will Whelan is very high on Collier, and Collier is a 4* recruit who is in the top 100 recruit who really only seems to have dropped because he's been on the scene for so long and thus the experts have had a lot of time to critique every part of his game, more so than other players. The only other two top 100 recruits? Josh Scott and Xavier Johnson. Will he be as good as Spencer was before his injury this year? Nah, extremely doubtful. Will he come in and make a big impact? Will seems to think so.

even if he is the 2nd coming of Spencer, he is going to struggle next year. I went to look at some of the point guards ranked around #80 from last season to see how they were doing and then I realized something. I don't see many of them starting. You have guys getting a few minutes a game at Wisconsin, North Carolina or Kansas or redshirting at Baylor and Ohio State. I think that is when we take the next step as a program. When we get a top 100 recruit and he gets to develop for a year or two and then gets to start.

 

[Quattro]

Star Rating	Nat. Rank	Player	Team	%Min	ORtg	%Poss	%Shots	eFG%	TS%	OR%	DR%	ARate	TORate	Blk%	Stl%	FC/40	FD/40	FTRate	FT%	2P%	3P%
4	90	Nate Britt	UNC	56.3	84.6	17.7	15.4	37.8	43.9	1.3	5.9	19	27.2	0.3	3.3	4.8	3.4	44.7	69.0%	39.1%	14.3%
4	96	Montee Moris	ISU	56.3	125	13.5	13	52.5	58.2	1.4	8	20.2	10.9	0.5	2.7	3	3	42	82.4%	50.0%	37.1%
4	76	Frank Mason	KU	46.7	109	21	20.4	47.3	52.9	1.6	7.9	24.4	18	0	2.1	4.2	4.9	57.6	69.8%	50.0%	28.1%

 

[tante]

None of those guys are starting and are all averaging about 6 points per game. If Dom comes in and averages 6 points per game people are going to meltdown.

 

[jgisland]

None of those guys are starting and are all averaging about 6 points per game. If Dom comes in and averages 6 points per game people are going to meltdown.

Tad can't recruit! He can't shoot! You can't win with defense! The guard play sucks!

 

[TDbuff]

Tad can't recruit! He can't shoot! You can't win with defense! The guard play sucks!

What's with the basketball snobbery? Between this board and Rivals we have a handful of guys who act like they're the only ones who know what basketball is. I know basketball success is new to CU, but some act like it's a new sport that nobody's seen before, and the rest of us are morons, which is lame, imo.

 

[tante]

What's with the basketball snobbery? Between this board and Rivals we have a handful of guys who act like they're the only ones who know what basketball is. I know basketball success is new to CU, but some act like it's a new sport that nobody's seen before, and the rest of us are morons, which is lame, imo.

There are some guys that watch games and some guys that study the game. JG is a guy that studies. He teaches us about advanced metrics, offensive and defensive techniques and scouts the players and recruits. I personally learn more from him than guys who say stuff like "we suck" or "Tad struck out this past class". There are some negative posters that add nothing to the general discussion that happens here so they provide no value. It makes the threads suck when you want to learn why we are struggling and discuss what we see and we have to navigate around the garbage.

 

[CVilleBuff]

Sure would be nice having http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/66139/london-perrantes right now. Pure point guard, beautiful passer, great defender, nice trigger from 3 when he needs to shoot. Really coming into his own in ACC play making his overall stats far less impressive than lately. Slipped right out of Pac12 country without much fanfare despite being a highly rated recruit. Would have fit in quite nicely to our system imo.

 

[tante]

Sure would be nice having http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/66139/london-perrantes right now. Pure point guard, beautiful passer, great defender, nice trigger from 3 when he needs to shoot. Really coming into his own in ACC play making his overall stats far less impressive than lately. Slipped right out of Pac12 country without much fanfare despite being a highly rated recruit. Would have fit in quite nicely to our system imo.

Why do you think recruited the sane position 4 times last year. Reading about the recruits I thought Hopkins was a more athletic Spencer, Thomas was a back to the basket player who could take his defender out to the perimeter and Fletcher was a mirror image of XJ. King came on late so I didn't know much about him. Fast forward to today and King, Fletch and Thomas are all on the XJ mold and don't know what to think of Hopkins yet.

I guess what are we going to see in the future. What was Tad's plan?

 

[TDbuff]

There are some guys that watch games and some guys that study the game. JG is a guy that studies. He teaches us about advanced metrics, offensive and defensive techniques and scouts the players and recruits. I personally learn more from him than guys who say stuff like "we suck" or "Tad struck out this past class". There are some negative posters that add nothing to the general discussion that happens here so they provide no value. It makes the threads suck when you want to learn why we are struggling and discuss what we see and we have to navigate around the garbage.

My contention is basketball is not a foreign sport, at least I'd hope not for most of us, that we need to depend on a relative few to tell us what's going on. We're all experts in football to the point that we won't tolerate a few "experts" telling us what's going on without question. Why do we lean on a few posters to tell what's what in basketball, to the point that they're allowed to be dicks about it?

 

[tante]

My contention is basketball is not a foreign sport, at least I'd hope not for most of us, that we need to depend on a relative few to tell us what's going on. We're all experts in football to the point that we won't tolerate a few "experts" telling us what's going on without question. Why do we lean on a few posters to tell what's what in basketball, to the point that they're allowed to be dicks about it?

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I think most of us have been watching football a long time but like with basketball, most of us (myself included) don't get many of the finer points if the game. When someone like Flabuff tells me something about the football team, you better believe that I listen.

So while you may think that some posters are dicks. Try sending them a pm if you want to have a more in depth discussion on the roster or the offensive or defensive techniques. If you have want to have legit discussion, I can't think of any of these posters that wouldn't want that.

 

[seattlebuff]

My contention is basketball is not a foreign sport, at least I'd hope not for most of us, that we need to depend on a relative few to tell us what's going on. We're all experts in football to the point that we won't tolerate a few "experts" telling us what's going on without question. Why do we lean on a few posters to tell what's what in basketball, to the point that they're allowed to be dicks about it?

Agreed. And some of these "experts" are on other threads talking about how Scott isn't doing enough. They must be watching a completely different sport. He's the only one doing enough. Meanwhile, you start critiquing our woeful backcourt (which is obviously the glaring weakness on the team, even to the most naive of hoops fans) and it's like you shot Ralphie or something.

 

[TDbuff]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I think most of us have been watching football a long time but like with basketball, most of us (myself included) don't get many of the finer points if the game. When someone like Flabuff tells me something about the football team, you better believe that I listen.

So while you may think that some posters are dicks. Try sending them a pm if you want to have a more in depth discussion on the roster or the offensive or defensive techniques. If you have want to have legit discussion, I can't think of any of these posters that wouldn't want that.

Flabuff isn't a dick about it, is my point. It seems since CU has gotten good at basketball we've had a bunch of experts come out of the woodwork to tell everyone they don't know what they're talking about. That's my problem.

 

[CVilleBuff]

I don't see how the dynamic on this board is any different than the football board in regards to knowledgeable posters. More are longtime CU football fans, but the same dynamic exists there and on any other board. This is a highly confusing situation, with multiple layers. On top of that everyone is disappointed and just downright depressed.

 

[Scotch]

Why do you think recruited the sane position 4 times last year. Reading about the recruits I thought Hopkins was a more athletic Spencer, Thomas was a back to the basket player who could take his defender out to the perimeter and Fletcher was a mirror image of XJ. King came on late so I didn't know much about him. Fast forward to today and King, Fletch and Thomas are all on the XJ mold and don't know what to think of Hopkins yet.

I guess what are we going to see in the future. What was Tad's plan?

Tad has to play freshman and sophmores who are 4 years guys and are still adjusting to D1 ball. This is a painfully young team that just lost their best player. It hurts but the experience they're getting now will pay off. Unfortunately that's where we're at without Dinwiddie.

 

[tante]

Flabuff isn't a dick about it, is my point. It seems since CU has gotten good at basketball we've had a bunch of experts come out of the woodwork to tell everyone they don't know what they're talking about. That's my problem.

I'm not sure which posters you are talking about but if you have a problem then I would suggest you pm them. Tone really doesn't work on the internet so sarcasm can often be misconstrued. For example I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor which probably doesn't work well on the web, but if we were at a bar and I were buying you drinks, it might be awesome.

I think back to my first interaction with cville in the chat room. I said something sarcastic, which did not go over well but was super funny in my head. It was so bad I had to apologize and explain what i meant.

So I guess the bottom line some of us are true dicks and some of us just have something about or posting style that someone else finds annoying. But we are all CU fans that just want them to win, so picking a day when we look our worst and are fighting for our lives may not be the best day to be totally negative.

 

[CVilleBuff]

I'm not sure which posters you are talking about but if you have a problem then I would suggest you pm them. Tone really doesn't work on the internet so sarcasm can often be misconstrued. For example I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor which probably doesn't work well on the web, but if we were at a bar and I were buying you drinks, it might be awesome.

I think back to my first interaction with cville in the chat room. I said something sarcastic, which did not go over well but was super funny in my head. It was so bad I had to apologize and explain what i meant.

So I guess the bottom line some of us are true dicks and some of us just have something about or posting style that someone else finds annoying. But we are all CU fans that just want them to win, so picking a day when we look our worst and are fighting for our lives may not be the best day to be totally negative.

Think that was bad? Should have seen the first encounter between jg and I.

Ps I just typed out a long reply to your question about our roster and accidentally deleted it. I mentioned a few days ago that a surprising number of teams seem to stock up on small forward types seemingly at the expense of other positions. I am more confused about Tad's strategy than I've ever been right now, so I don't really have any answers. I do know that we aren't going to be a work of art from shooting deep under Tad and that's OK. As to what we we've been doing in terms of recruiting guards the past couple years I do not know. Is this part of a master plan? Were glue guys the aim? Or was there a hunch there'd be more talent than we actually have?

On a separate note, the overall performance of our freshman class is to be expected. I see nothing surprising or disappointing. I'm excited about some potential. This class shouldn't be taking collective blame right now IMO.

 

[tante]

Think that was bad? Should have seen the first encounter between jg and I.

I still consider myself the reason you haven't been back to Boulder to see a bball game, but maybe it was jg.

 

[TDbuff]

I'm not sure which posters you are talking about but if you have a problem then I would suggest you pm them. Tone really doesn't work on the internet so sarcasm can often be misconstrued. For example I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor which probably doesn't work well on the web, but if we were at a bar and I were buying you drinks, it might be awesome.

My problem is not personal, more the movement. Lots of CU basketball experts coming out of the woodwork, and not willing to argue with us regular football fans who are obviously not knowledgeable about basketball, or anything related.

 

[CVilleBuff]

My problem is not personal, more the movement. Lots of CU basketball experts coming out of the woodwork, and not willing to argue with us regular football fans who are obviously not knowledgeable about basketball, or anything related.

Is the football board really so different in your mind? I joined long after you did and basketball is my first sport of choice, so I know our perspectives are bound to be different. In my opinion it seems we have a collection of football experts, many of who frown on posts they deem silly or not worthwhile. Maybe the difference is that pecking order was just established long ago while no one was really looking at this board outside of a handful of regulars until recently. I don't get the impression this board is anymore cliquish than the football forum.

 

[TDbuff]

Is the football board really so different in your mind? I joined long after you did and basketball is my first sport of choice, so I know our perspectives are bound to be different. In my opinion it seems we have a collection of football experts, many of who frown on posts they deem silly or not worthwhile. Maybe the difference is that pecking order was just established long ago while no one was really looking at this board outside of a handful of regulars until recently. I don't get the impression this board is anymore cliquish than the football forum.

I'm sorry, I just think the bball experts have been douschy-er about it. And it's more accepted that they are because we have been good, as opposed to football.

 

[CVilleBuff]

I'm sorry, I just think the bball experts have been douschy-er about it. And it's more accepted that they are because we have been good, as opposed to football.

We obviously won't see eye to eye, but peruse the football and recruiting forum with the same lens (especially during a low point of the season comparable to now) and I think you'll be surprised at the element of uncompromising "experts" diminishing others you'll find.

 

[tante]

My problem is not personal, more the movement. Lots of CU basketball experts coming out of the woodwork, and not willing to argue with us regular football fans who are obviously not knowledgeable about basketball, or anything related.

I definitely don't see the same thing. The basketball board has its experts and they haven't changed for a long time. Just because you don't see them on the football board does not mean the come out of the woodwork. I think the true experts love basketball are always willing to discuss basketball with people as long as the approach is right. Saying things like Booker sucks, he would be a bench player at any other Pac12 school is not worthy of a discussion but the kind of stuff that goes around on the football board (see o line discussions).

I think the basketball board is just modded more tightly, has a smaller group of core contributors and is having to deal with bandwagon fans who get a bit bipolar between wins and losses.

 

[cu3x]

This is going to be a challenge for the fans. How many will support the team if it's not likely to get into the tourney? How hardcore is the C Unit?
It would be nice for the players to see 9,000+ show for Utah Saturday.

 

[jgisland]

I'm sorry, I just think the bball experts have been douschy-er about it. And it's more accepted that they are because we have been good, as opposed to football.

I think you're kind of missing the point (or my point).

#1 - Like Tante, I have a very sarcastic dry sense of humor that doesn't play well on the www.

#2 - i don't call myself an expert, there are some things I know a lot about basketball (advanced metrics) there are a lot of things I don't. It's just gotten really old the past couple of weeks when somebody says Booker sucks, Wes and J-hop have shown no signs promise, Scott isn't clutch, CU can't shoot, Tad can't recruit, Tad can't coach D, Tad can't coach O. Without asking WHY and wanting to have a discussion about it. I guess that's what's changed, we used to have discussions about what is wrong/right, not bi$*h fests where everybody is right.

It's an internet forum so people can do whatever they want, but If people started asking why and offering some of their thoughts as to why CU struggles in the half-court, or reasons why the guard play may sucks for example this place would seem more tolerable.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

For those bitching about talent, a few things to consider:

1. The most highly-regarded (and college-ready) recruit in this year's class went down within minutes of the Mayor. The other three were consider more long-term prospects than guys who would make an instant impact. Thomas' showings in a summer rec league somehow convinced many that he would be a star this year, but he just had too far to go for that to happen.

2. No one is going to look good without a PG to run the show. The Mayor was the one guy we couldn't afford to lose, for the obvious reason that he's the team's best player, but also because he's the one player who can effectively get the team into its offense. Now, we're forcing guys to just go one on one to score, and it's ugly.

3. For those harping about Wes's offense, you're not paying attention. He was recruited as an interior defender, rebounder and shoot-blocker. He's been inconsistent, sure, but you can't argue he hasn't shown flashes of turning into a damn good player in another year or two.

Things will get better. We'll see glimpses from some of the freshmen soon. But I'm not sure why everyone is so surprised about what we're seeing. All of the “negativity Nancy's" who posted after Spencer's injury may have been on to something- this team just hasn't been built to the point where we can withstand that kind of loss mid-season.

:congrats:

 

[TDbuff]

I think you're kind of missing the point (or my point).

I'm pretty sure I missed it as well, and whatever point I was trying to make I couldn't really back up. I appreciate the response though. I guess I was just generally annoyed by all the reaction threads, and not just in this forum, twitter, other sites. Pretty hard to make sweeping generalizations from all that, but I was trying to.

 

[mattrob]

I have to agree with everything said by jg and tante above. It's not that anyone is pretending to be an expert, it's the fact that there are so many posters that just don't contribute anything meaningful to the discussion.

Maybe we were spoiled on the basketball board, but there was a stretch of a year or two where this was, without question, the best place to talk CU hoops and, really, college hoops in general. There were a ton of knowledgeable posters and virtually every post contributed to the discussion (well, except for tante, but he grows on you). Even if I didn't agree with a poster, I could count on a well-reasoned response. Now, you have to wade through 2 pages of crap to get to any meaningful posts. A lot of the posters I enjoyed reading are apparently agreeing, because most are posting much less than they used to.

When Spencer went down, I was one of then most concerned posters in the game thread, and was met by the “negative Nancy" and “next man up" comments, with some even stating sweet 16 was still a possibility, ignoring the reality of a loss like that. Unfortunately, even my thoughts on the impact of the loss have proven to underestimate his significance to this point and many posters seem to be following victim to their own unrealistic expectations and resorting to arguments that we have no talent, the freshmen are busts, etc. Couple that with someone who will call out anyone on the board for actually offering an opinion, without providing a counter-argument or opinion of their own, and it should be obvious why many here are disappointed with what the board is becoming.

 

[slider]

Just so we're clear here, do you consider S2S and SECO experts?