PEDs and Alabama, and what that means for CU

[Darth Snow]

As CU fans, we're on somewhat thin ice with this line of reasoning.

Stanford held ND to a lower point total in regulation then Alabama, but had nowhere near the offensive firepower (read as offensive line and Lacey) to put points on the board against the Irish.

that was Stanford Pre-Hogan, fwiw. ND got lucky.

 

[BuffUp]

I say who cares. All of sports has become a "keep up with the jones' game" - every athlete should be able and allowed to do whatever it takes for them to achieve the top of their chosen sport. If you have to cheat, steal or juice, then so be it. If you can do it with out and on natural ability, then good for you. This whole world is about getting "IT" now at all cost... Hell, everyone is cheating in all sports these days. Win at all cost attitude who cares about your future.

 

[Gold]

Good commentary in this thread. TDBuff posted a great article from Yahoo about this. It says At Alabama, coaches have wide discretion.

In other words, they're looking the other way. When they chant S-E-C. the response should be P-E-D.

CU has been on the politically correct side of the fence for some time. I highly doubt previous staffs would allow this to be prevalent in the locker room.

Also, great story DBT. That is scary and unfortunate that guy was taking animal hormones without knowledge.

 

[DBT]

NCAA drug testing program

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...Safety/Drug+Testing/Drug+Testing+Landing+Page

Criticism of NCAA drug testing program and private testing firm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/s...ncaa-draws-criticism.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[DBT]

Sounds like individual schools can design its own testing program. I'm sure that works well.

 

[RalphieSpeaks]

Are some Alabama athletes using PEDs? Yes

Are some ND athletes using PEDs? Yes

Are most "big time" college teams guilty of having athletes use PEDs? Yes

Did CU do everything by the book under Mac when we won our NC? I am guessing not.


I don't think this is an SEC issue and can be found in all conferences. ND is probably guilty of it to. They did not have the same talent that Alabama had, they did not wrap up when tackling, their secondary could not cover, and they got spanked.

Probably should leave it at that.

 

[fatbuff]

If you arent cheating, then you arent trying hard enough to win.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

If you don't think they're not rampant then I don't know what to tell you

But only in the SEC. :rolling_eyes:

Are some Alabama athletes using PEDs? Yes

Are some ND athletes using PEDs? Yes

Are most "big time" college teams guilty of having athletes use PEDs? Yes

Did CU do everything by the book under Mac when we won our NC? I am guessing not.


I don't think this is an SEC issue and can be found in all conferences. ND is probably guilty of it to. They did not have the same talent that Alabama had, they did not wrap up when tackling, their secondary could not cover, and they got spanked.

Probably should leave it at that.

Exactly. To imply that SEC teams are using them but to say schools like Clemson, FSU, Oregon, USC, Nebraska, etc. aren't is ludicrous.

 

[BinaryBuff]

If the testing programs aren't on the bleeding edge and if there isn't a 24/7/365 chance of being tested along with severe consequences of being caught, then yeah, I'd say that there are definitely a portion of college (and nfl) players using PEDs.

 

[Waldo]

If you don't think they're not rampant then I don't know what to tell you

source of your data or is it just the way the Alabama player slammed one of the Pope's boys to the ground?

If that's the case then our own Lawrence Vickers must have been all roided up in the K-State game a few years ago no?

 

[fatbuff]

source of your data or is it just the way the Alabama player slammed one of the Pope's boys to the ground?

If that's the case then our own Lawrence Vickers must have been all roided up in the K-State game a few years ago no?

He did that to a lammie.. They're light.

 

[Quattro]

source of your data or is it just the way the Alabama player slammed one of the Pope's boys to the ground?

If that's the case then our own Lawrence Vickers must have been all roided up in the K-State game a few years ago no?

First hand knowledge

 

[The Monk]

Im sure we use PEDs like everyone else, but you still need athletes.

 

[buffaholic]

not sure where you are getting your data but I can assure you from 2000 to 2005 you could count on one hand the number of players @ CU who used PEDs before or during their CU careers.

Got to challenge you on that Waldo. Not because I had any "in" with CU football at that time, but CU was competitive at that time, and PEDs have been a necessity to some extent to be competitive for a much longer time. Players don't advertise it often and it's usually done very much on the sly. But it's rampant. I'm going to guess you were on the team, or around the team during that time frame. It's not advertised and I was completely in the dark myself about my team-mates.

I'm not an expert, but I can assure you I've been around PEDs since the early 80's and was surprised to find out later how many of my teammates were juicing without myself knowing it.

I've posted this before, but here's a former workout partner of mine: Dave Pasanella, world record Squat. Died too young btw.

In the back (Over Dave's left shoulder with the dark beard) is his training coach, Dr. Jacobs, known to us as "Jake". Jake went on to get his PHD and become the University of Miami's S&C coach, before going to jail for dealing PEDs. This was the summer of 1987. Miami won national championships in 1987 and 1989. Jacobs never chirped. He of course never provided PEDs to players for the U..... Never.

I'll just say I've seen a lot and it's rampant.

The NFL testing policy is to assure the general public that things are clean, while also releasing the league of liability.
The MLB testing policy is designed to catch the cheaters. Very different testing.

Lastly, you can only design a test for what you know is out there. And that takes time. The Balco designer drugs were there for a long time before they were tested for.

These Peds are expensive. HGH is REALLY expensive. No college is subsidizing these things with department money, in any way that is traceable. No way. But do some programs have easy access to cheap goods? It's used all over. It's possible that Alabama has a better program in place. Perhaps...

 

[DBT]

Did anyone read my link? If the testing program is run by the individual school, isn't that like putting the fox in charge of the hen house? If all the NCAA spends on testing is $4.5 million a year for DI and DII, well that's a joke. That amounts to roughly $18,000 per school for all sports. Only 3% of all NCAA athletes are tested. Ridiculous.

 

[branjohb]

It's a conspiracy....

Watching the game last night, I couldn’t help but think about 1998. The year McGuire and Sosa were bombing homeruns left and right. The fans, writers, and ESPN were all saying “ooooh” and “aaaah”. But they should have been saying:


Wait a minute.


Something seems fishy here. The SEC and corruption go hand in hand, but it’s usually about pay for play from boosters. In this case, what I saw last night went beyond that.


This is the era of blatant performance enhancing drugs in college.


If we’re waiting for ESPN to crack the case, forget it. They’re too busy gushing over Alabama’s 3rd BCS title, and Florida, and Cam Newton. Money that changes hands for that network for these games is too high to disrupt the system. But I have a feeling that eventually they will all have astericks.


What we saw went beyond your normal football game. Alabama was throwing Notre Dame players around like rag dolls. This is not normal. It was the equivelant to McGuire and Sosa slamming back to back homeruns on 98MPH curveballs.

Don’t confuse what you saw last night with heroics. This was chemically engineered football. And it’s being played by a team in a conference where you “win at all costs”. I think we know what that means now. Use PEDs. Beat your opponents. The crowd won’t know the difference.


We’re too busy saying how great Saben is, and how can we get that kind of “speed”?


Questions:


1. Do you think Alabama and other SEC teams uses PEDs?


2. Would you be OK with CU using PEDs if that meant a national title?




Had to go all John Stossel on this.

It couldn't be that Alabama has a lot of NFL caliber players on their team, the best coach in college football, and they were a buzz saw to a very overrated, soft Notre Dame team. Naw, they have to be cheating. :rofl: aTm must be cheatin' as well, in fact anyone that wins, cheats.

 

[Quattro]

It couldn't be that Alabama has a lot of NFL caliber players on their team, the best coach in college football, and they were a buzz saw to a very overrated, soft Notre Dame team. Naw, they have to be cheating. :rofl: aTm must be cheatin' as well, in fact anyone that wins, cheats.

Are you saying the PED's aren't rampant in athletics, specifically college athletics?

 

[DBT]

The tell tale is to follow a guy from college to the pros. A significant drop off is a sign. Weren't 'braska's linemen back in th day notorious for failing at the next level?

 

[Gold]

In the back is his training coach, Pat Jacobs, known to us as "Jake". Jake went on to get his PHD and become the University of Miami's S&C coach, before going to jail for dealing PEDs. This was the summer of 1987. Miami won national championships in 1987 and 1989. Jacobs never chirped. He of course never provided PEDs to players for the U..... Never.

This is a movie waiting to be filmed. Incredible.

I did read the NYT article, which is also well researched, this quote stood out to me:

“You’re not getting positives because they’re not doing real testing,” said Catlin, the former head of U.C.L.A.’s Olympic Analytical Lab. “The athletes know when the tests are going to take place. They get sick or they don’t show up. They’re not testing for the right things.”

 

[buffaholic]

Yes. Young kids with a fortune on the line, aren't cheating in CFB. NFL players aren't taking Roids. But somehow, 100% of all Cyclists dope?

The general public is misled on this issue.

But, there can be vast differences from a group of guys doing this at CSU on their own and a "program" put in place by a paid expert.

 

[buffaholic]

This stuff is expensive and CFB guys are a lot of time taking risks they don't understand. They don't have paid Doctors and PED experts helping them design their cycles, etc. They can't afford the HGH like the pros can. Their AD is not generally providing this information, guidance, or access to the goods. They are often taking questionable crap from Mexico, smuggled in illegally.

Have any of you questioned how guys that finish their CFB career can transform their body before the combine so quickly? Do you really think they suddenly learn how to "work out so much harder" than they did in college? They sign with an agency, many of which specialize in training and "nutrition". They got "celebrity trainers". Yup. They got experts, Doctors, etc.

A lot of money on the line before draft day. A lot of money to buy the experts and the goods....

So the real question is, are top CFB programs doing things that a lot of these agencies are doing? Think about the $$$. Is there a way to get this done, without the AD ever touching it?

I'll say it again. Dr. Jacobs was busted for dealing Roids while he was employed as the University of Miami's S&C coach. He stated he did not provide Roids to his players. That was the end of it. Miami won the national championship a few months later.

 

[buffaholic]

He did that to a lammie.. They're light.

Well, before the Alabama coach got to CSU anyways.....

 

[DBT]

This stuff is expensive and CFB guys are a lot of time taking risks they don't understand. They don't have paid Doctors and PED experts helping them design their cycles, etc. They can't afford the HGH like the pros can. Their AD is not generally providing this information, guidance, or access to the goods. They are often taking questionable crap from Mexico, smuggled in illegally.

Have any of you questioned how guys that finish their CFB career can transform their body before the combine so quickly? Do you really think they suddenly learn how to "work out so much harder" than they did in college? They sign with an agency, many of which specialize in training and "nutrition". They got "celebrity trainers". Yup. They got experts, Doctors, etc.

A lot of money on the line before draft day. A lot of money to buy the experts and the goods....

So the real question is, are top CFB programs doing things that a lot of these agencies are doing? Think about the $$$. Is there a way to get this done, without the AD ever touching it?

I'll say it again. Pat Jacobs was busted for dealing Roids while he was employed as the University of Miami's S&C coach. He stated he did not provide Roids to his players. That was the end of it. Miami won the national championship a few months later.

Sounds like a great documentary.

 

[Wyo Buff]

Sounds like a great documentary.

i must be getting old. Back in the early to mid 90s in my day, I could not turn around without having to drop my drawers and piss in front of some old dude. They tested for everything from marijuana to clembuterol. I bet I got tested 5 times in 94 and 95. They would call you and tell you you had 30 minutes to get to the Dal Ward andpiss for these guys. Maybe it's different now but conversations like these seem like a pathetic excuse for your own team's shortcomings. I will tell you this, if one BCS conference is doing it and getting away with it, they all are.

 

[buffaholic]

who was asking you to piss Wyo? It's each team's own policy.

Read the links DBT provided and then think about the money involved. Not every school is self-policing like CU did in 94-95.

 

[Wyo Buff]

who was asking you to piss Wyo? It's each team's own policy.

Read the links DBT provided and then think about the money involved. Not every school is self-policing like CU did in 94-95.

I don't know about self - policing. We understood both the Big8 and the NCAA tested randomly. This sounds like black helicopter **** to me.

 

[Uncle Ken]

Back in the early to mid 90s in my day, I could not turn around without having to drop my drawers and piss in front of some old dude.

If you replace "in front of" with "on" you'll understand how I'm financing my new home.

 

[buffaholic]

I don't know about self - policing. We understood both the Big8 and the NCAA tested randomly. This sounds like black helicopter **** to me.

I can't say what was happening in the Big 8 or NCAA in 1994-5.

In 2013, the front page of this has links that detail what is happening now:
From the Yahoo story:

Even when players are tested by the NCAA, experts like Catlin say it's easy enough to anticipate the test and develop a doping routine that results in a clean test by the time it occurs. NCAA rules say players can be notified up to two days in advance of a test, which Catlin says is plenty of time to beat a test if players have designed the right doping regimen. By comparison, Olympic athletes are given no notice.

Most schools that use Drug Free Sport do not test for anabolic steroids, Turpin said. Some are worried about the cost. Others don't think they have a problem. And others believe that since the NCAA tests for steroids their money is best spent testing for street drugs, she said.
Doping is a bigger deal at some schools than others.
At Notre Dame and Alabama, the teams that will soon compete for the national championship, players don't automatically miss games for testing positive for steroids.

 

[buffaholic]

Or from Don Caitlin, the man who busted Balco:

In the 2010-11 academic year, 10,735 athletes were tested in the N.C.A.A.’s year-round program, according to data released by the organization. There were 63 positive tests, or 0.6 percent.
But the N.C.A.A.’s drug-use survey and interviews with coaches, trainers and players indicated that the percentage of student-athletes who used drugs during the testing period might have been much higher.
“You’re not getting positives because they’re not doing real testing,” said Catlin, the former head of U.C.L.A.’s Olympic Analytical Lab. “The athletes know when the tests are going to take place. They get sick or they don’t show up. They’re not testing for the right things.” He added that the groups had an incentive to collect few positive tests.

 

[buffaholic]

So the difference can simply be "information". In the day, it was widely known that Nebraska had a Steroid program going on, and they were the leaders for a period of time.

Every program has some players using PEDs today. At a minimum it's just guys acting as individuals, and taking risks.

The Balco players all had an expert helping them (their so called trainer). Their Jake if you will.

Is it so hard to imagine that certain NCAA programs have a guy out there, perhaps in the community, that is a trainer, an expert, whatever who's helping kids do what the "NFL guys are doing" while making sure they have the knowledge to not get caught, and assuring they are using proper measures to not kill themselves?

We will never know unless one of these guys comes out. Another suicide, a tell-all story, etc. How many baseball players, those who later admitted to using PEDs, came out and talked openly about it?