Discussion in 'Colorado Basketball Message Board' started by Buffnik, Jul 11, 2011.
Good luck to him. Dude could recruit. He needs to find some assistants that know X's and O's, and let them do their job. Otherwise he won't last long.
Uhhhhh, he is an assistant there. At least that is what I got from the article.
You are correct. Frankie Allen is the head coach.
Pretty amazing career implosion. UMES is one of the worst programs out there...
Pretty amazing to think of how far this program has come since Ricardo left.
Not gonna lie, didn't read the article. Just assumed he was the new HC. :smile2:
You mean from him taking us to the NIT in '06 to us going all the way to the wait for it.....NIT in '11? Yes we have come a long way indeed. He did take the team to the postseason 6 of the 11 years he was here whereas the team has gone just once in 4 years since he left.
He'll continue to recruit Tennessee exceptionally well and assume his guys can play streetball out there without teaching them defensive schemes. Good luck though, I hope he's learning important lessons every year in what it takes to coach at any level and can find success as a HC somewhere.
The difference was that under Ricardo there was a feeling like that was as good as it was going to get and the team would constantly under-perform. Beyond that, we had major issues with class balance, program discipline and APR (which started just before he was shown the door and was a total mess - taking academic risks was the secret of his recruiting).
Are you truly that dense, or is this just an act? Serious question.
Ricardo's last year at CU, we were dead last in the conference. Four years later, we ended up 5th in the Big 12.
24 wins (most ever), our first trip to the semifinals of the Big12 tournament, NIT trip to Madison Square, and the assumption that things are capable of improving way further - next year will have its bumps, but Boyle will take CU to heights that Patton never did
If anyone is being dense it's you.
In 3 of Ricardo's final 5 years the team finnsihed 5th or better in the Big 12, do you even realize that? And now you're lauding the current team because they manage to finnish 5th four years after he has left and after 3 straight years of having a losing record and two years of being dead last in the Big 12? How does that represent progress from then to now? Again under Ricardo the team went to the postseason 6 times in 11 years, since he left the team has gone once in 4 years. How exactly does that qualiy as, "amazing how far the team has come since Ricardo left?" The team has been about the same, probably even worse without Ricardo then we were with him. It does seem like were heading in a nice direction but frankly the team probably isin't going to be very good this year either. Im not saying that he's a good coach or that I wish he was still here, I dont, I'm very happy with Boyle but im just not seeing this amelioration that you speek of.
JRK, did you watch CU basketball when Ricardo was coach? Maybe some toward the end, I would guess, but you were young. It's one thing to look up records on Wikipedia or ESPN or whatever and it's another thing to really live through it. We had a program that was going nowhere, we had players getting bombed and using other substances at local bars, we had an undisciplined team, and we had an atrocious academic record which didn't get publicized as much back then or cost scholarships because the APR didn't exist until his last year. Also, the Big 12 wasn't as good then from top to bottom. Programs like A&M were atrocious. Patton's CU teams always under-performed, almost never beat anyone decent and folded early every time they made the NIT or NCAA. It simply wasn't very good and none of the good times ever seemed like they would last. Bzdelik had to literally destroy the program by getting rid of pretty much every holdover and then rebuild it the right way. He laid a pretty good foundation for a better college coach in Boyle to get us to where we have a program we can be proud of and a likelihood of sustained success. We just got past APR scholarship reductions as a holdover from Patton. It's more than the record (which was an all-time best last season, fwiw) or where the team finished in the conference.
You are underestimating Patton, Nik. While we were never going to be a consistent contender under him, he did bring in a lot of talent. I do not long for the Patton years, but we are not in the position we are now without Patton.
Stephon Pelle should be in the nba.
For better and worse.
I never questioned the talent. I do question some of the characters he brought in and the amount of discipline his program had both on and off the court. And by the end, he left a program that was in much worse shape than what Barney or Hawk left behind in football.
+1 - I couldn't stand watching our teams play under RP, but I have to give him respect for where to took the program after Harrington. Sure he did not leave the program well, but RP elevated the expectations of CU bball for his successors to fulfill.
While I don't agree with JRK's statements at face value, I do understand the general concept to his statement if you will. RP did some good things for the program, and while I thought Bz was better and Boyle will be even better than him, we still do not have any real substantial proof that our program is going to be better than RP's tenure in terms of wins/losses. It's good to be excited about CU bball, but at the same time, let's not let the quality present taint the view of the past. Things are good right now - not great - and they weren't atrocious before.
The real test for where the program is headed and how good Boyle is, is this upcoming year. Losing your two top scorers is not easy unless you have established guys who were at 3 and 4 or you have the top players in the nation in your recruiting class. We don't have either, so we will need some very good coaching and player improvement.
Not all his fault though. The AD did not seem interested in making investments in the basketball program whenever we had success.
Again, I am not arguing that Patton was a great coach by any stretch. But he did a decent job for a while before the wheels came off.
And I still find it amazing how far we've come since he left. The atmosphere surrounding the basketball program is 180 degrees different. There's an expectation that the basketball team will have success now. We never had that before. Even when Patton had his best teams, it was always a situation where we hoped for success. We expect it now. That's a huge change, IMO.
In the immortal words of Brian Griffin from Family Guy: "How does this guy keep getting work?"
IMO, the biggest factor in perception of the Patton years was the decision to let him coach his final, lame-duck year. The team all but quit on him, and the bad taste left by that season masks any recollection of whatever success he had during his tenure in Boulder.
What I can agree with is that Patton did plant the seed with Buff fans and administrators that CU MBB can be good and that it was possible to recruit basketball talent to Boulder. That did become a game changer that spurred investment and a willingness to listen to Bzdelik when he told the school what needed to be done (facilities, dedicated s&C coach, etc.). And it made us fans hungrier, more impatient for losing basketball, and more excited to back a winner.
My criticisms of his program do stand, though. People shouldn't look back at the Patton era and just look at the season records and Big 12 finishes. However, I did make the similar mistake of not putting what he did in perspective of what he inherited. My intent wasn't to do a full analysis of Patton, though, just nip it in the bud when someone tried to point to that era like it was "the good ole days".
Patton did the best he could for what he had to work with(which wasn't much). The guy was on an island for much of his time in Boulder. Unfortunately he was his own worst enemy in many ways, and it cost him some NCAA appearances. There were many good memories made along the way though.
Jaquay Walls, Jamahl Mosley, Stephane Pelle, David Harrison, Michel Morandais, Marcus Hall, Richard Roby, Jeremy Williams, Xavier Silas. Every Patton year after the '97 tournament run with an inherited Chauncey Billups he had 2-3 of those guys he recruited on the roster. All guys who would start for the current team. And all he "coached" them to was one NCAA tournament with an unlucky first round draw of Michigan State which was built on the heels of a tremendous 2003 home campaign. And then a handful of disappointing showings in the NIT with teams uninterested in being there.
To review, above average recruiter with piss poor on-the-court returns. And a bigger public critic of his own athletic department and players than Dan Hawkins. I think we've said all that can be said about him. Wish him luck elsewhere, but his own pigheaded ways and lack of Xs and Os sense did nothing to partner with the AD to facilitate a culture of winning expectations here. It was a step up over the last decade from complete apathy to complacency with "good enough."
To me, a good measure of a coach is how the players develop and grow during his time with them. While I believe that Patton is a really good person and a better than average recruiter, the thing that disturbed me most was that players came in at a certain talent and developmental level ... and seemed to leave not much better. That, and bench coaching were his shortcomings in my opinion. he did get some talented players, but I can't think of any who improved significantly during his tenure. I think that you will see a big difference with Boyle.
I think one part of the raised expectations is the atmosphere Bohn and the AD have worked to create. The new practice facility contributes to that, but I think Bohn working to get butts in the seat, especially the students, plays a part in raised expectations. Half filled buildings equals apathy, imo.
There are definitely a number of factors. This AD has certainly emphasized basketball more than any I can remember. I was kind of shocked at how easy it was to break attendance records. It's going to be interesting to see whether prices go up this year and how much we're able to increase our season ticket base.
I still maintain that the best thing Bohn did for the atmosphere at CU was the simple act of moving the student section to an area where it makes sense to have them. When I was a student, we were hidden in the corner of the arena. Now they're behind the basket, where they belong. The constant give-aways to the students, the free pizza, all of that stuff is brilliant.
And of course, a huge shout out to the guys who started C-Unit.
Patton can recruit, I am sure that is why he got the job at UMES, to bring in talent. I also think that at heart he is a good guy with the best interest of his players at heart.
The problem is that as good as he in recruiting talent, he is a well below average coach in terms of improving players and building teams. Pelle and DJ Harrison should both have had shots at the NBA when they left CU, David Harrison was a tremendously gifted guy, a seven footer who could run and was athletic. None of these guys got appreciably better in their time at CU.
I had a former player tell me that Patton is the worst practice coach he ever saw (This is a guy who played at CU prior to Patton but has stayed in close contact with the program since,) I look at other guys who had talent and never developed. Roby commented on the difference in coaching between Buzz and Patton, if not for his injury Buzz in one year would have improved him more than Patton did in three.
The academic issue with Patton is a legitimate question. He looks for talent first and doesn't worry about if the kid can stay eligible or benefit from the opportunity for an education. There is also some question about Ricardo's "adherence to the rules." Rumors were that he was willing to do some things in recruiting that would have put CU on the recieving end of the NCAA again, not something the school or AD can afford to mess with.
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