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Should Boyle start recruting like Altman and recruit one year rentals?

Discussion in 'Colorado Basketball Message Board' started by jwhite17, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. jwhite17

    jwhite17 Member

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    Look at Oregon's success these last two years (especially on the road), and it has very little to do with his recruiting of freshmen. He is purposely leaving open a couple of schollies each year to bring in immediate impact upperclassmen transfers.

    Do I think it is fair? Yes of course, but Altman is definitely exploiting the rule to his advantage.

    Last year, he brought in 4th year senior transfer Devoe Joseph (difference maker), 5th year senior transfer Ashaolu (difference maker), junior transfer Tony Woods (top 100 recruit), and JC transfer Carlos Emory.

    He got two difference makers to make immediate impacts without having to sit out at year AT ALL. Woods and Emory were the only normal transfers, and neither made an impact last year. Woods and Emory are much better this year though.

    THis year, he brought in two excellent freshmen Dotson and Artis, but the true difference maker, and the main reason for their success: Arsalan Kazemi.

    Kazemi decided to transfer for his senior year from Rice, a D1 school, due to some hardship, and he got clearance to play this year WITHOUT having to sitout. What! Does Phil Knight have that much power?

    ALso, he got Waverly Austin to admitted to Oregon when he couldn't get into USF, how is that possible?

    In my opinion, Kazemi is the main reason for their success this year. In every game against good teams, he has come up with tough defense, rebounding, etc. He is a 4th year senior afterall. Huge difference between a senior and a freshmen.

    WIthout him, I doubt they would be 16-2 right now and ranked in the top 20.

    I respect Altman as a coach, but he doesn't truly rebuild a program like Boyle is doing with the Buffs, so I think he is using the system to bring in upperclassmen talent without developing the talent himself.

    Actually, I'm very curious to see if Altman brings in more upperclassmen one year players next year considering he is losing Woods, Emory, Kazemi, and Singler, pretty much their entire front court will be gone.

    Could you imagine if the Buffs could bring in 1-2 immediate impact seniors each year? We wouldn't be discussing depth problems/leadership issues either, but I like how Boyle is building up the program for the long-term perspective.

    Also, the only really transfer difference maker Boyle brought in was Carlon Brown, and he had to sit out one year, so he isn't the same as Altman's guys.

    I can definitely see the benefit brniging in guys that are already strong and developed skillwise, but in doing so, you are restricting the growth of your underclassmen, so long-term, maybe it isn't the best strategy.

    So, do you think Boyle should start copying Altman's pattern of bringing in impact transfers/one year rentals?
     
    jgisland likes this.
  2. ShockerHoops

    ShockerHoops Well-Known Member

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    Wichita State recruits JUCO talent hardcore. I'm a huge fan of using mature, developed JUCO talent. If you can recruit the top 2% of JUCO players, go for it. A lot of our best talent to come through WSU in the last few years were 2 year guys or transfers. Ramon Clemente, Clevin Hannah, Gabe Blair, Joe Ragland, Cleanthony Early, Nick Wiggins & Chadrack Lufile. (Also it's a requirement for all JUCO players to have awesome names).

    Our coaching staff has deep roots in juco's though. Our assistant HC Jans was a HC at Chipola CC, and AC Heiar was an AC under Jans at Chipola, then took over as the HC there. Heiar was an insanely good coach too with a record of 164-15 after he left for southern miss. Sorry for the tmi on all that, but the point was that we have pipelines to JUCO's. It's pretty hard to just go "Ok, let's go recruit JUCO players" if you haven't already been making those connections.

    The downside for JUCO's is that they only have 2 years of eligibility. Which is a very short time period to develop cohesion and learning a coach's system. So for a typical JUCO you can really expect only about a year and a half to 1 year of solid performance. Look at Joe Ragland for us last year. He was a JUCO PG that came in his first year, and we actually moved our SG/SF combo wing to PG to bring the ball up because he was having a hard time learning the system. Fast forward a year (last season) and Joe was scoring 31 against UNLV after they just beat UNC, and then took us to the NCAA's, and got tryouts with Golden State, and now plays in Spain.
     
  3. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    No. Boyle should do what he thinks is best. We are experiencing unheard of levels of success with the basketball program and I don't see any reason to change a thing.
     
  4. mattrob

    mattrob Club Member Club Member

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    I don't think that model is sustainable long-term. That's a small pool to rely on and you're not going to get a gift waiver for a guy like Kazemi every year. But yeah, if we have an open scholarship, I'd love to land a senior transfer every once in awhile. Look at the impact Lyons has made at Arizona.
     
  5. jgisland

    jgisland Club Member Club Member

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    Good post and topic. Tad doesn't seem to be opposed to this, he has brought in Carlon and Adams.

    Altman has made this work pretty successfully but there are certainly some potential downsides.

    1) Can transfer upper-class man really be looked upon as leaders? Carlon wasn't really the leader last year, that fell more on Nate and Austin. Mark Lyons is working out at Arizona but there are plenty of other vocal leaders on that team.

    2) Can they mesh? USC is another team that has tried to do this and has considerable troubles getting so many pieces to work together in a cohesive fashion.

    3) Tad seems to recruit "character guys", and guys that transfer usually have some baggage they are bringing in

    I think Tad will continue to find a guy every couple of years to come in and fill a void that fits his profile, but I don't see him following the Altman approach.
     
  6. Goose

    Goose Hoops Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    Along with Carlon and Adams, he also was trying to find a PG to come in this year for a one year rental according to numerous people.
     
  7. L Buff

    L Buff Commissar of the Albuffs Collective Left Club Member

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    ^^^
    THIS ... emphatically.*


    *not sure I've ever posted an agreement with a sacky post before ... or ever will again :smile2:
     
  8. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    UMM, boyle is already doing this. Altman is just doing it better.
     
    Goose likes this.
  9. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

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    Altman really has an eye for transfer talent. It would be nice if Adams worked out differently.
     
  10. BuffHerd

    BuffHerd Club Member Club Member

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    I think it would be a poor investment of time and resources to recruit JUCO talent on a regular basis given CU admissions. I dont know that the same would be true of transfers, but I think you bring up a very valid point. If Tad can have a consistently competitive program to offer, I believe it is reasonable to think that CU could plug holes with transfers/JUCO. I wouldnt think we could rely on those players the same way the Oregon does now. Brown and Adams came at a transitional time for Tad.
     
  11. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

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    is this any different than Kentucky getting one and done players? It actually might be a better way to do it, since the players are more mature, but most likely less athletically gifted.
     
  12. BIGEZ321

    BIGEZ321 Active Member

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    Boyle should be recruiting bigger bodies.
     
  13. jwhite17

    jwhite17 Member

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    That's why I think Altman is exploiting the rule.

    He is getting guys that are playing 3 years with another D1 team, in a strength program for three years, coached by another coach, developed in another system, and played in lots of games against other D1 players, so he doesn't have to worry about the adjustment period that usually happens with bringing in freshmen (XJ is an example). Devoe Joseph carried them last year, and now Kazemi is providng that spark in rebounding/defense to help them beat UCLA/Arizona.

    Could you imagine if we had a guy like Kazemi coming in as a sub for Dre/Scott instead of Tunks?

    We would probably have another 3-4 wins this year easily.

    Altman's WHOLE frontcourt is transfers - Woods (Wake Forest), Emory (JC transfer), Austin (JC transfer, should have gone to USF but couldn't qualify), and Kazemi (Rice).

    I'm not saying build an entire team like Altman (or O'Neill tried to do with USC), but I would love for Boyle to find some disgrunted one year rentals to help our front court.

    I'm only using Oregon as an example cause they have benefited the most from this rule.

    WHere would CSU be without Iverson in the middle? He was a normal transfer, but he is only there for one year.

    Would be make the clutch shots for Arizona if Lyons didn't transfer? He got an exception for the NCAA too, so he didn't have to sit out one year either.

    Obviously, it hasn't worked well for USC, but they have plently of talent, and CU could have used that 7'1 guy from RIce as well to help our team.

    I think our offense and defensive rebounding would be so much better if we had a few more big bodies in our front court. I would love to have a Kazemi/Austin/Woods type player on this team helping Scott and Dre out down low.

    We shouldn't try and copy Oregon, but I see nothing wrong with trying to find a talented player that wants to play one more year, 5th grad transfer, and he can help our team.
     
  14. ShockerHoops

    ShockerHoops Well-Known Member

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    In my experience of watching transfers at WSU, it's not athleticism or even pure basketball skill that is lacking. It's discipline, work ethic, grades and attitude. D-1 basketball is just more intense with everything involved. Game prep, practice, weight room, etc. Even play style is very different. Not a lot of set plays, and a lot of just "here's the ball, go score it" attitude in JUCO.

    One of our JUCO players has a problem of being score first pass second, even if his lane isn't open, or there is a better option to kick it out to. A paraphrased quote from coach: "I wish I could coach the JUCO out him."
     
  15. CVilleBuff

    CVilleBuff Club Member Club Member

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    I'm in favor of using it in certain situations where there's a clear need and a clear player to fix the situation. However, I would not want to make a living off of it, as I doubt the sustainability. Even with Altman, it's quite likely that this method is going to come back and bite him sooner or later.
     
  16. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    He pretty much did with Carlon Brown.

    And although it didn't work out, he went out and got a JUCO in Adams and was expecting him to fill Brown's role by this year. Health issues have spoiled that plan, but Tad has logically added non-freshmen to the team when it made sense.

    I can't remember his name, but he also tried to get that Missouri sharpshooter to transfer here last year.
     
  17. RumblinBuff

    RumblinBuff That one blogging guy Club Member

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    You mean Michigan? Smotrycz? He ended up at Maryland after visiting. Damn that Turgeon.
     
  18. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    That's the guy.
     
  19. btbuff

    btbuff It's an inside joke Club Member

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    With CU admissions JUCO route is a route to headaches and pain for Boyle.
     
  20. CVilleBuff

    CVilleBuff Club Member Club Member

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    Tad's buddy Turgeon is plucking transfers big time. Getting guys like Smotrycz (Michigan transfer) Wells (expelled from Xavier) etc. Often times you can find solid 3 point sharpshooters who can transfer in as Juniors, they're around nearly every year.
     
  21. SECOBuffsFan

    SECOBuffsFan Active Member

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    They are good to mix in, but I am really excited to watch this group grow with adding talent in Gordon, Hopkins, Thomas and Jenkins next year
     
  22. Goose

    Goose Hoops Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    And Fletcher.
     
  23. Gold

    Gold Well-Known Member

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    Do we even have the roster flexibility to pull this off next year or the year after? A lot of people were counting on Dre going to the NBA after this year to free up a scholly, but that isn't likely.
     
  24. rolandftw

    rolandftw Club Member Club Member

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    It's something that you have to do if the need arises. CU's shaping up to potentially having three NBA type talents on it next year IF Roberson returns... usually that type of team has the ability to have a very deep run in the NCAA tournament.

    But Colorado needs an experienced big man to spell Scott 10-15 minutes a game. It is the biggest hole on the roster, and with the potential of having one scholarship available still... something Boyle and his staff have to search for very hard before next season.
     
  25. rolandftw

    rolandftw Club Member Club Member

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    For 2013-14, absolutely. Yeah, we have three freshmen coming in but between Chen, SHT, Mills and Adams we certainly have the potential of having an open scholarship available even if Andre does return (which I still think is around 50%)

    For 2014-15, I hope it is unlikely as I'm hoping that we fill most of our scholarships with very good high school talents. But there is always the chance we miss on the players that we want most and take the route of adding a good transfer player.
     
  26. mattrob

    mattrob Club Member Club Member

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    That 13-14 scenario is when you'd like to take a graduate transfer too. If you have postseason attrition in the form of transfers and/or early entries, you can fill those holes quickly, and likely aren't missing out on a lot of freshman talent at that point.
     
  27. SECOBuffsFan

    SECOBuffsFan Active Member

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    I don't see anyway that Andre should go to the NBA this season unless he blows up over the next 2 months
     
  28. Buffenuf

    Buffenuf massive tool

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    Carlon Brown was Bzdelic "get"; Tad found him here waiting for his Sr year. Jeremy Adams came on recommendation from Prioleau, since Adams was originally an aTm recruit. Unfortunately, Adams got injured late last year and his health condition slows recovery significantly.

    So, its not apparent Tad is greatly in favor of one year rentals nor should he be. As pointed out above, even the Duck JCs took time to ramp up to Pac 12 competition. I still remember how clueless Marcus Relphorde was his first year with the Buffs.

    This year is really a foundation year with the two redshirts, (which is very rare in BB) essentialy giving the Buffs five excellent frosh, with two having a full year's exposure to the system, S&C and just getting older and more physically mature! It should help filling that gap left by Damien Cain's departure. (Can you imagine him off the bench this year?)
     
  29. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    To the bold: you are mistaken.

    "Colorado is a good fit for me," Brown said, "although I wouldn't have come here if (Jeff) Bzdelik would still be coach. I like Coach Boyle's (uptempo) system."
     
  30. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    Brown was not a Bzdelik "get".

    EDIT: Nik beat me to it.
     

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