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The Best Players

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Chilly, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    There is a general consensus on these boards that Hawkins doesn't start his more talented players. I would like to challenge this to an extent by going through the positions.

    1) O-line - Does anyone think we have some on the bench who should not be?
    2) TE - Think this one is obvious
    3) CB - Is there a name I don't know about?
    4) Safety - We actually put some players on the bench to get more talent back there.
    5) LB - Seems to me most of our LB see alot of playing time, even the younger ones
    6) D-Line?
    7) RB - Is DS really better than what we have in Stuart? If so what have you seen, except the 1 game, that tells you this?
    8) WR - Lots of debate here.
    9) QB - We know Cody is not performing, but is there clear QB behind him that is more talented? Or is this just a case of make a change to see what happens?

    When I go through this list, outside of a few positions that there is legitimate points to be made on both sides, I don't see a trend of Hawkins not starting his best players.
     
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  2. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    WR: two guys who have made 40+ yard catches that opposing teams see on film....can stretch a D. ideally, these two unnamed WR's would have done that more...

    TE: complete confusion to me in the Hawk era. every time we win it seems like the TE's see the ball. but, i've never been a coach and we'll run it downhill all year with Cody throwing it 40+ times a game
     
  3. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    So what you are saying is that you see 1-3 talent on this team?

    I'm not sure that's a particularly strong point in Hawk's favor, frankly.... :huh:
     
  4. CUwhit21

    CUwhit21 Club Member Club Member

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    OL - Behrens over Stevens, Behrens/Bahr over Adkins
    RB - In the past, Sumler over Stewart/Scott
    WR - Espinoza, Ebner, Cody Crawford etc. over Josh Smith, Kendrick Celestine, Andre Simmons, Anthony Wright etc.
    QB - Tyler may not be the better QB right now, but Cody has had 3 years to prove himself and is still rated one of the worst QBs in the nation. Build for the future and let him make his mistakes.

    The bigger issue is the minute we fall behind by a decent margin, we pull our best athletes off the field and turn into the Texas Tech D Team.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  5. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    No right now I see a team who is not executing like it should. Defense has been out of position on way to many plays and tackling has been poor at best at times.
     
  6. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    QB - No one knows if Cody is the best option, the other QBs don't even get a shot in mop-up time... but there isn't much argument that he is statistically one of the WORST QBs in the Div 1 football, and he isn't winning games. Seems like it would be time to give the ball to someone else.
    WR - Obvious
    RB - Not stewart, but Sumler ahead of Scott
    DLine - who the hell knows
    LB - Major needs to see more time IMO
     
  7. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    And again, not the best endorsement of this coaching staff...:huh:

    I agree regarding execution, btw. Which raises the question - if we have physically superior talent on the bench because of execution issues (Scott vs. Sumler in passing situations, Simmons, Wright, Jefferson, Polk, Major, etc...) and we are not executing, what exactly are we gaining by not playing the guys with the physical talent to possibly overcome a few execution errors??
     
  8. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    1) O-line: Do you believe Keenan Stevens is a better football player than Blake Behrens?
    2) TE: Somewhat agree, but Deehan's not getting as much PT as he should.
    3) CB: Just trying to figure out why Wright was moved to WR. He might be starting over Jalil if he hadn't been.
    4) S: They've started to play the talent now that Burney's made the switch. Mahnke should have redshirted.
    5) LB: Smart is not more talented than Mohler. Major and Rippy are the best athletes and they barely get into the rotation.
    6) D-Line: Total disaster. I think we're trying to get the talent on the field even if it's painfully young.
    7) RB: Those that have watched practices say it's not even close how much better DS is than everyone else. And it was Sumler, not Speedy, that got his snaps the first couple weeks. For WVU, I think most of us accepted that Speedy had a lot of success against them last year, had a hot hand early, and DS probably wasn't 100%.
    8) WR: Don't even try to justify Dustin Ebner having as many catches as Andre Simmons at this point in the season. There is nothing to debate. Espinoza is a 5'7" guy that runs a 5.0 forty. There's no way he is more talented than even our freshman redshirts.
    9) QB - Hansen is more talented. The coaches won't even argue that. Cody starts for subjective reasons.
     
  9. buffsfan01

    buffsfan01 Member

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    RB-scott-the one time this year he was in more than 4 plays check the stats !! :deadhorse:
     
  10. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    And the point I am making is, that outside of some debatable positions we do seem to be playing the guys with the most physical talent.

    The positions that are highly contested are WR and QB. I believe it is easy to explain why, at maybe the two hardest positions to learn on the football field, you don't see the younger talent playing yet. As bad as execution is now, at times, can you imagine what it would be like if you WR were runnign really fast to the wrong spot, or blocking the wrong person really hard?

    if you look at most of the positions on the team, I think you see that this staff is working at getting it's best players on the field.
     
  11. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    So it's just the defense? The offense in year 4 still has no identity or system. It seems to change every other day.

    WR, special teams, QB and spreading out the carries at rb seem to be the places where a question could be raised.
     
  12. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    So, again, if what we've been seeing is the best talent on the roster, it is not a ringing endorsement of the recruiting done by this staff. It would indicate recruiting has been a disaster for the 3 full classes they've had (60 plus potential schollies) to upgrade the talent level. I do not think that's the case btw. I think it's far too simple and a bit of a cop-out to say "well, the players just aren't good enough" this long into the tenure of a coaching staff...

    And if execution is bad now, is there really much to be lost by giving the more talented guys we agree are on the bench a chance?? You assume the execution will just be worse and the physical talent won't make a difference. Maybe the exact opposite is true. What are we gaining from the status quo that makes trying it such a hard to accept idea?? :confused:
     
  13. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    O-line. Don't know if one is better than the other, but I can tell you the O-line against WVU was much much better than what we rolled out against CSU

    LB - Does anyone know where to get a breakdown of number of plays each player has seen on the field. Given that Cabral is our LB I will strongly defer to him on who he thinks should be on the field. Outside of some tackling issues, I think LB play has been adequate. We are so use to seeing dominating LB at CU that it has spoiled us to an extent.
     
  14. CUwhit21

    CUwhit21 Club Member Club Member

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    1-3 this season, 14-27 in 3 1/3 seasons. New coaching staff please. I've seen enough.
     
  15. CUwhit21

    CUwhit21 Club Member Club Member

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    Are you just playing devil's advocate or do you really believe this coaching staff is doing a good job?
     
  16. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    First off this thread is not meant to rehash the 500 million posts that have already been had about Firing Hawkins or his record.

    I would like to stay on topic and discuss 1 specific idea that has been circulated that Hawkins intentionally keeps the better talent on the bench.

    Outside of a few position where we cleary have a lack of talent, I don't see this as being the case. O-line appears to be starting it's best players. Same at CB and TE. No one can say with any certainty at Hansen is better than Cody. Just different.

    And the arguement around DS seems to center more about his recruiting status than anything else.

    So outside of not starting our young, tall, and fast WR I don't see strong amount of evidence to suggest Hawkins won't play his best talent.
     
  17. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    I think Sumler getting carries over Scott is one area
    QB i think is another clear area
    WR is another clear area
    LB is debatable
    TE someone pointed out that Deehan should be getting a few more looks


    I think we have the best CBs and Safeties out there. And for the most part OL. DLine is such a **** show that I don't know
     
  18. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    There's a difference between playing the 'best' players and playing the most talented.

    Are there more physically talented players on the bench at certain positions, yes there are, no one can argue against that.

    The players need to know the offense though, and I do believe Hawkins is playing the 'best' players at this time.

    The fact that the 'best' players are not necessarily the most talented is an indictment of Hawkins and his staff's ability to teach and coach.
     
  19. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    It is not like Sumler is getting 10 carries a game either though. And he has averaged 4 yards a carry on the few he does get. So if we give the 3 extra carries that Sumler gets a game to DS that will make everyone think DS is getting a fair shot?
     
  20. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    I 100% agree with this post. Which was kind of the purpose behind the thread.
     
  21. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    Better then the 2 to 4 he is getting now :lol:
     
  22. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    We finally agree! LOL :thumbsup:
     
  23. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    But Chilly, we're not in a position right now to say "well, maybe there's a couple positions where we could upgrade talent, but mostly we've got it right." We're at a point where they've got to get those guys on the field. Maybe it's a little thing, but this staff constantly preaches the importance of the little things. If those guys don't know the entire offense, get them proficient in enough of it to make use of them. If they aren't playing because of execution, at least make sure that the guys who are playing are executing. To me "are the best guys playing" is the same question, basically, as "is this the best we can do"? And I simply don't believe this is the best this roster can do.
    I think the consensus is that the problem is not only the way the running game pie is being sliced, but that the running game pie is WAY too damn small. Run more, throw less. Voila! More carries for Sumler, Scott, Lock, Stewie, you name 'em....

    But if you have to choose, Stewart and Scott should be getting the lion's share. Lock on some particular plays. Sumler only in VERY rare circumstances...
     
  24. Swish

    Swish Half a bubble off Club Member

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    First. When has any thread around here ever stayed on topic? :smile2:

    Second. Nice thread, I appreciate you efforts at the voice of reason approach.

    It does however beg questions, reasonable I hope. Since you feel we have the best players on the field to a responsible degree, why do you think we are one and three??? Why have we given up 11 plays of 40 yards or more? Why did we get smoked by mighty Toledo? What is wrong and what is needed to fix it?

    Understand, I'm not trying to be flippant, you obviously have given this plenty of thought and have a theory of your own on this and I'd like to hear it. Perhaps you really don't think things are going that badly, we are basically on schedule and need to apply more patience. Just a guess but do enlighten us.
     
  25. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    OL: Hard to say who's better between Adkins/Bahr/Stevens/etc. I can't fault them for playing who they play here.
    TE: Like others have said I wish Deehan would get a few more chances, but Devenny and Geer aren't worse players or anything.
    CB: No argument here.
    S: It's hard to argue that Polk isn't 15x the athlete Mahnke is. I know Polk was out of position a few times when he has played, but my god Mahnke looks slower than Cody out there so far.
    LB: I will give Cabral the benefit of the doubt. I would like to see Smart out in obvious passing situations more, his speed is a real handicap.
    DL: Yikes. All I will say here is Kasa had better be playing quite a bit now that they've burned his redshirt. I also must wonder where Obi is. The coaches have even pegged him as a strong practice player before, why has this not resulted in playing time?
    RB: I know most on here think the world of Stewart, but I think he is what he is. A smaller RB who can't handle the load of 20+ carries. He'll get beaten to death if they try to do that to him every game. I won't argue that DS is the better player, but I will argue that DS is clearly a better player than Sumler.
    WR: This is frankly the biggest joke on the team. Nobody to blame but Hawk for this too. If the offense is so absurdly complex then they need to dumb it down. No need to be running the Bill Walsh west coast offense at 100% when the result is Ebner and Espy getting PT over the rest of the MUCH more talented players.
    QB: I don't know if TH is the better QB. It's hard to argue talent at QB should always win out, there's so much that goes into being a QB. That being said, nobody can tell me, and that includes DH, that TH isn't a better QB than Cody until we can see him play some games.
     
  26. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    We're 1-3 because the best players aren't necessarily the most talented and there are obvious deficiencies on both offense and defense.

    For instance... Cody isn't an accurate passer when he KNOWS where the receiver is going to be. Putting in Simmons and Wright and Simas arguably increases the talent level at the WR position, but if they don't know the offense it would actually make things worse. Cody would miss more throws and probably throw more picks if the receivers are out of position because they aren't on the same page.

    Another example... Espy is a great punt catcher, but he's hardly electrifying returning the ball. Hakwins places MUCH more emphasis on catching the ball, rather than risking the rare fumble for a big return, so you see Espy back there instead of someone like Simmons.

    The players play to their strengths and do the best they can, but they're also hamstrung by the coaching staff. 4 years and we're on our 4th offense. Also, Hawkins, in my opinion, plays 'not to lose' instead of playing to win. Hawkins would rather put the receivers he trusts on the field to minimize mistakes, even if it minimizes the big play. Same thing at punt returner. Same thing all over the field.
     
  27. BuffFan

    BuffFan Member

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    Does anyone believe that another QB will become better than Cody by sitting on the bench?
     
  28. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    Not with the coaches we have.
     
  29. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Sometimes sitting on the bench is the best thing for players. Sometimes throwing them into the fire does more harm then good.
     
  30. Chilly

    Chilly Well-Known Member

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    Two things.

    The Defense was awful against CSU and Toledo. Our kids were out of position and looked confused at times. Its up to the coaches to understand what their kids know and don't know and make sure the are putting them in a position to execute. that clearly was not done against CSU and Toledo. I don't put the WVU loss on the D. Anytime you can generate 4 TO you have had a good day.

    On offense it really is all about the little things. I can think of 2-3 plays in ever game we have had that should have been big gains and for some reason ( dropped pass, penalty, overthrown ball, etc.) We just haven't been able to connect. I also think we are struggling with explosiveness right now on offense. When you have to rely on 10 play drives to get the ball down the field, it is going to be tough to win games, without a dominating D backing you up.

    The O has looked better to me this year. We are putting drives together and moving the ball better. Not near as many back to back to back 3 and outs this year as last year. Or at least it doesn't seem that way to me. But without having an explosive player that can get you that 30 yard gain, we will continue to have to be methodical, and that is tough to do.
     

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