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The Big 14?

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by NashBuff, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. NashBuff

    NashBuff CSU Knob-Slobberer

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    http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=600&ATCLID=204889091

    I know Buff fans on this board including myself are having wild dreams of the Buffs in the Pac-10. On the offical CU Buffs website, there is a Roundtable Discussion with Buffs AD Mike Bohn. He says he has been in communication with the Big 12 commisioner Dan Beebe.

    The Big 12 owns the rights to the Big 14 trademark.

    Now suppose the Big 12 counteroffers the Pac-10 and lures both Utah and BYU to the Big 12? I know this doesn't sound as sexy as the Pac-10 but does it make it workable for CU?

    I would keep the North intact except send Mizzou to the South and there would be a provision where there would be one team you face every year regardless of the division. There has been talk of a zipper-like divisional set up in the Pac-10 as well. CU would be in a division with one SoCal and NoCal team in that situation and that would be something to appease the Northwestern schools. Perhaps we could explore such a thing with the Big 14 and there would be one rivalry game in that case. For instance, Oregon and Oregon State would be in seperate divisions but still play the Civil War every year. Same thing for the Apple Cup. We'd be paired up with Utah in that case. I'd be for CU being in a seperate division as Texas unless proven otherwise.

    I am still in favor of the Pac-10 because it makes sense for CU (screw the other 11 schools) but at the same time, we need to look at expanding the Big 12. I don't think we need anymore Texas schools.

    If the Big 12 was to go to 16, I'd want to add CSU and Wyoming while the AFA flyboys go independent.
     
  2. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    It's possible. If the voting could be diluted to make UT less of an 800 lb. gorilla every time an issue comes up, then the B12 could survive. IMO, as long as UT has the pull it has, CU, MU and anybody else ought to pull an Arky and get while the getting is good.
     
  3. Unleash Hell

    Unleash Hell Well-Known Member

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    gawd no, I want out of the Big 12 bad!
     
  4. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

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    it would make the north tougher, but I would rather be in a PAC:14 than a PAC:12
     
  5. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    the issue for the b12 is "who do you add?"

    ok, let's say they add byu and utah--- that gives them one more 3rd tier market. will that be enough to get the conference a huge new tv deal?

    and, if not byu and utah, then who? who else is out there that (a) is culturally, academically, and athletically a fit AND (b) brings more tv sets to the conference?

    arkansas? why would they leave the sec?

    iowa? why would they leave the b10?

    unm (small market, small budget), csu (small budget, redundant market), air force (redundant market), unlv (academic issues, small budget)?

    i think the b12 would love to expand in order to protect itself but where are the candidates that will help it accomplish the goal?

    presume that the p10 and b10 have been informally working together on their expansion plans... if so, the floated alliance between the p10 and b12 seems pretty far-fetched.

    could the sec and b12 form a super-conference alliance? what's in it for the sec?

    maybe the b12 goes super-conference and picks off all the best of the non-bcs teams... boise state, utah, byu, etc... maybe that might work?

    i dunno... maybe i am missing it, but i don't see a whole lot of paths to success for the b12. and the prospects get worse if CU and/or mizzery leave. and the prospects get catastrophically worse if texas and/or atm leave...
     
  6. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    If the B12 went on offense, they should attack the Chicago market. Northwestern and Illinois would sew up the middle of the country.

    An other aggressive B12 stategy would be an assault on Florida. Picking up Miami and Florida State would add some counterbalance to the SEC, boost the talent in the league with both Texas and Florida as prime recruiting ground, and add some major TV markets.
     
  7. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    I actually think the B12 would be stronger if UT left than it is now. The Texas TV market is sewn up already. Losing UT wouldn't lose any TV sets. I would be in favor of staying in the Big 12 if Texas left and we added TCU, SMU, Houston or Tulane.

    Yes, Tulane. Can you imagine the roadies to Tulane? Better than Vegas, that's for damn sure. I don't care how good they are on the field of play. In fact, I'd prefer a few more patsies in this league.
     
  8. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    The "Big 14" proposal really does nothing for me.

    One of the big issues is that CU's academic and cultural perceptions on the national level are heavily influenced by the conference we are in. CU is seen as compatible with Kansas State and Oklahoma State because we are affiliated with them.

    And since I wasn't living in Colorado during the glory years but was a big fan, I have a pretty decent grasp of what people thought of CU around the country. What they thought is that CU compromised everything to win at football by bringing in a bunch of gangbangers under Props 48 and 42, turning them loose to break the law, letting them leave without degrees (pre-APR days), and looking the other way with a lot of infractions. Before the "scandal", it was building with incidents like ex-CU guys such as Westbrook beating the crap out of Stephen Davis and Rae Carruth having his baby mama killed. The perception was that the media had held off despite what was going on and CU got away with it as long as they had an upstanding, devout christian as its head coach that the media couldn't impugn. And that this house of cards crumbled when we no longer had goody-goody Mac to deflect the criticism and, instead, had a guy who skirted the rules (Neuheisel) and a guy whose previous program got caught up in a gambling scandal under his watch (Barnett).

    Expanding the football factory Big 8 by bringing in 4 teams from what had been the dirtiest football factory conference in the country (SWC) did nothing to help this perception. If anything, it just added Texas-sized egos to the football factory arms race.

    CU needs to leave this mess behind and join the Pac-10. We need a fresh start in a conference where we can compete without having a stigma attached to it.
     
  9. Darian3Hagan

    Darian3Hagan '89 Player of the Year Club Member

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    :iagree:
     
  10. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Yep, no shady boosters or illegal benefits for players going on in the Pac-10.

    slightly sarcastic, but I still get your original meaning.
     
  11. CarolinaBuff

    CarolinaBuff Weekend Poster Club Member

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    Adding a couple of Florida teams? I don't know, that's quite a stretch geographically....
     
  12. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    this idea is like your fat wife who doesn't give you any loving getting a boob job. Thats nice, but she still sucks.
     
  13. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    :smile2:

    Yep. All about perception. U$C's probably dirtier than anyone in the Big 12, Oregon probably takes as many risks on guys with questionable character as anyone in the Big 12, and Oregon State probably takes as many academic risks as anyone in the Big 12 (short of KSU). But that's not the perception. I'd love to see a national survey on academic reputation and NCAA rules integrity by conferences. My guess would be that the Big 10 and Pac 10 would fight it out for the top spots while the Big 12 and SEC fought it out for the bottom spots on those 2 things.
     
  14. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    Yes and no.
    Seattle (UW) to Tucson (AZ) is farther apart than Miami and a number of B12 schools.
    Charter flights come with megamillion TV contracts.

    This is a strategy for money, not convenience.
     
  15. CarolinaBuff

    CarolinaBuff Weekend Poster Club Member

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    True, same thing with the ACC spanning the entire East coast from Miami to Boston.
     
  16. Creebuzz

    Creebuzz Club Member Club Member

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    Colin Coward (sic) recently had a big discussion on his radio show about academic perception of the PAC 10 as part of a larger discussion of conference realignment. He said it's way overrated and that the ACC was statistically the best academic conference overall, followed by the Big X. Personally, I think the whole debate is kind of pointless. On the undergraduate level, you can get a solid education just about anywhere if you put in the effort. Anyone who has ever gone to, or seriously considered, grad school knows that each school varies widely by discipline (i.e. I'd choose UCLA over Stanford for film school, and I'd choose CU over both for aeronautical engineering). I favor the PAC 10 for cultural reasons, travel spots, alumni base, and recruiting ties. I'll take the academic perception, whether true or not, as a bonus.

    By the way,Cowherd is a serious CU hater...rails on us constantly as a bunch of hippies. Last time I was in Boulder, didn't seem like a lot of hippies to me...more like expensive housing, high end restaurants and shops, and a huge professional population, but I guess the facts never get in the way for ESPN when it comes to CU. Who did we piss off in Bristol?
     
  17. SINKRATZ

    SINKRATZ Club Member Club Member

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    If the Big 12 expands, you just know somehow it would be TCU and Houston. F*** that, Pac 12 all the way.
     
  18. UrbanaBuff

    UrbanaBuff Member

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    Creebuzz, you are right. The ACC is likely the smartest conference overall, though the Big Ten is right there too. I know many of you don't put stock in the USN&WR rankings, but they are as objective as we can get. While the Big Ten's average school is better than the ACC's, the ACC has more highly ranked schools, if that makes sense. In other words, FSU and NC St. are killing the ACC in terms of averages, since they are far below the rest. Understanding this, know that the Pac 10 has a very strong collection of highly ranked schools. Their problem is the back half of the conference really dilutes this prestige. Check out these stats...

    ACC
    All of the ACC's 12 schools are in the Top 102.... including 1 in the Top 10, 4 in the Top 30, 6 in the top 35, 8 in the Top 55.

    Big Ten
    All of the BT's 11 schools are in the Top 71.... including 1 in the Top 15, 2 in the Top 30, 4 in the Top 40.

    Big XII
    Only 1 school in the Top 60, which is Texas at #47. CU is #77.

    Pac 10
    1 in the Top 5, 4 in the Top 30, 5 in the Top 45

    CU is currently #3 in the Big XII behind Texas and A&M. In the new Pac 12, CU would be #6.
     
  19. NashBuff

    NashBuff CSU Knob-Slobberer

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    I honestly had no idea that CU's rep was that BAD outside of Colorado by being associated with those Texas schools and the old Big 8. Does the Pac-10 have similar perception problems especialy with U$C?
     
  20. BuffMania

    BuffMania Banned BANNED

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    Since when did we become too good for the Big12?!?! Our football program is in the dumps, our basketball program might as well be non-existant. We don't have a baseball program, sure, we have good academcis, but it's not like we hold our athletes to the the same standards as our students, or it's not like we hold our athletes to higher standards than the rest of the Big12 as a whole.

    We've been a part of this conference for a long time, there's no reason to change it now.
     
  21. SpacemanSpiff

    SpacemanSpiff Club Member Club Member

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    Sacky, sacky, sacky. Did you just say that losing UT wouldn't lose any TV sets? I think you are letting your grief for our dear Rusty, color your views. The Texas TV market is UT and A&M. If UT leaves, THAT MEANS A&M LEAVES TOO, and no amount of Houstons, TCUs and SMUs, etc, are going to replace that. UofH wants desperately to join a big boy league. Sumlin is doing good things, and it was a minor coup that he didn't leave after last season. But they have a 35,000 seat stadium, that they rarely fill, so even though they are working on plans to either expand or replace Robertson Stadium, they still aren't viable for the Big 12 until they up their attendance. We already have one of those...Baylor, I'm looking in your direction.

    I know Bohn has to say supportive things about the Big 12, but if he's not actively working plans to enable a Pac 10 move, and UT/A&M leave for another conference, the Big 12 will implode and we'll be screwed if we can't move too.
     
  22. Darth Snow

    Darth Snow Hawaiian Buffalo Club Member Junta Member

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    are you having trouble reading? No reason to leave? Start with $ and work your way through the rest of the reasons. Really WTF kind of retarded post is that.
     
  23. Hugegroove

    Hugegroove Club Member Club Member

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  24. NashBuff

    NashBuff CSU Knob-Slobberer

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    I'm sure CU fans are still dreaming about the Pac-10 but at the same time, some of those fans probably had NIGHTMARES about CU remaining in the Big 12.

    Just before walking into the office this morning, I had this thought: WHAT WOULD THE RAMIFICATIONS BE IF THE BUFFS SAID NO TO THE PAC-10 A SECOND TIME?

    I don't think the ramifications would be any good in this case. I think this would be a strong message to the left coast alumni that CU doesn't care about them like CU should. Has Mike Bohn been working for awhile to change the way how CU treats their boosters and alumni? Would the California CU grads send their kids to a different Pac-10 school as a result? Would donations dry up and put CU in an even worse situation which could eventually land the Buffs in the *gasp* MWC or WAC?

    Don't get me started on the ridcule that would come from opposing Big 12 schools.

    A lot has been written about the hurdles CU faces in joining the Pac-10 but no one has bothered to discuss the consquences of telling the Pac-10 NO for a second time and choosing to remain in the Big 12 even if the Big 12 remained intact.
     
  25. tante

    tante Club Member Club Member

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    First off, has the PAC 10 even asked? second if we lost $15 to $20 million by leaving the Big 12 and the PAC 10 gives us nothing as an incentive except a promise for future revenue, it is going to make it a really tough decision.
     
  26. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Therein lies the rub. If UT leaves, but A&M and OU stay, no TV sets are lost. I think your Houston-centric view of things is skewing your perception. Dallas is equally OU and UT, in my opinion. I think the conference can afford to lose UT and would be better off in the long run if they were gone.
     
  27. Razorbuff

    Razorbuff Member

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    Lots of teams have a presence in Dallas. OU/UT/A&M/ even Arkansas has a huge alumni base there. Even if UT leaves, the Dallas market will still be solid for alot of programs.
     
  28. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    I have worked for the last few years for a company that does a lot of business in south Texas and owns lots of property all over that region.

    IMO, the Longhorns OWN south Texas. San Antonio, Austin, Houston, and Beaumont and all the small to mid-sized cities that are in the "Gulf" region and the Hill Country. Texas A&M is co-mingled there but UT is the dominant team. From personal experience, I recall that most of West Texas is typically a Longhorn fan as well. Texas Tech and A&M fans are mostly people who live in the immediate towns, are alumni, or have family that are alumni. In general the "casual fan" is going to be a Longhorn fan.

    Dallas, as has been stated, is different. The city is full of transplants from a multi-state region and graduates from those areas as well. UT and Oklahoma could very well be the top two schools represented there. The University of Oklahoma (not just the football team) attracts a lot of students from the DFW area.

    Losing UT would be a SIGNIFICANT blow to the ratings draw of the Big 12 in the major Texas TV markets. We would still have a presence with A&M, Baylor, Tech, and say TCU (if we lose UT this would be a good addition), but it would be be window dressing and not a major market penetration. The best long-term option would be if A&M began to re-assert itself and go to major bowl games while UT struggles in the BigTen; that scenario could win more media exposure for the Big 12, but it wouldn't be a groundswell.

    Concentrating on keeping the DFW market a "Big 12" market would be the key to salvaging some of the loss of UT.
     
  29. ScottyBuff

    ScottyBuff Well-Known Member

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    I don't necessarily agree that saying "NO" to the Pac-10 (if they asked) would be a sign of "F U" to the west coast alumni. It sounds like we aren't all that great at tying them into the program as it is now, and these are all just rumors so anyone that feels that CU is already obliged to the Pac-10 is getting ahead of themselves.

    Do I want CU in the Pac-10? absolutely!

    If nothing changes, however, it won't wreck my world or perception of the team. I think it is a better opportunity, but I don't sit in the central offices tracking admission numbers, donations, capital budgets, and operating expenses all day to know what the true advantages and disadvantages of such a move would be.

    I think that the Big 12 can take steps to not only salvage itself but grow during this time of uncertainty. To me, the Big 12 operating model is being tested severely by the SEC and BigTen, and maybe by the Pac-10 within a year or two. That means it is either grow or die time for the conference leadership. The schools in the past that have blocked positive growth may now see the errors of their ways and things can change.

    The bottom line is that even if we had equal TV revenue sharing, it would only amount to an extra $1 to $2 million a year. While that isn't chump change, it isn't going to break us out of our financial contraints either. The CU alumni, boosters, and fans have got to be the change they want to see in the school. While it sucks that we see such contributions as "support" for the HC and therefore refrain from our support, in truth it is only proving the point that maybe CU can't maintain a "big time" football program in the current "arms race". The Big 12 or the Pac-10 aren't going to solve our problems for us. Now, I don't think things are that bad to where we need worry about being dumped into the MWC or WAC.

    A new HC and/or a new conference could be a great kickstart to getting everyone's interest in the Buffs back in line and open the pocketbooks. But, if success on the field is hard to come by again then are we back to square one, or further behind?
     
  30. NashBuff

    NashBuff CSU Knob-Slobberer

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    Will CU really lose $15-20 million? Let me give you some facts and you should feel better about CU's ability to join the Pac-10.

    ESPN article that shows CU got $8 million from the Big 12: http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/2094/how-the-big-12-teams-rank-in-revenue-sharing-funds

    Big 12 bylaws: http://www.big12sports.com/fls/10410/pdfs/handbook/Bylaws.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=10410

    The Big 12 bylaws state that if you give the Big 12 a two year notice, you lose 50% of that money for the last two years as a member of the conference. That means CU would lose $8 million from 2010-11 and 2011-12. CU's share could go down if the Buffs do not appear on TV as often. Suppose CU's share goes down to 6 million for those two years, the Buffs lose 6 million not 8 million.

    Now if the Buffs were to start Pac-10 play in 2011, the Buffs would lose 80% of that amount which would translate to $12.8 million.
     

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