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The psychology and success of in-state kids - a discussion

Discussion in 'University of Colorado Recruiting Archive' started by aeroxx, Dec 8, 2011.

  1. aeroxx

    aeroxx New Member

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    Hey Dio,

    I'm glad that you weren't slandering those recruits. I did notice some pretty scathing remarks, and I don't think that serves the students, this site, or our football team.

    I understand what you are saying. That other states, especially texas and nebraska have recruits who desperately want to play for their school. But what I am saying is that the kids who define themselves based upon the school they play for, and have grown up believing that, tend to have a very specific type of personality. (a guardian psychology according to Myers Briggs). That comprises less than 25% of the population, and it is fair to presume that far fewer athletes have that kind of psychology. (since most athletes are "Artists" according to the psychology literature)

    The fact is that people (the guardian psychology) who so define themselves based upon the location that they grew up, and therefore the school that they MUST play for, tend to lack the flexibility and inner resources in order to deal with competition and life's inevitable setbacks, such as injury. This presents real difficulties for them as they transition to college and then the League or wherever they go.

    I would be very interested to see the statistics of the highly rated kids who grew up in places like nebraska, went in-state, and then proceeded to have successful careers in the NFL. Given the fact that the NFL is populated by a majority of players who didn't have 5* or even 4* ratings, there is a pretty strong correlation for my argument.

    This appeal of state-pride is very questionable because the kind of athletes who respond most strongly to it, are the ones who are not especially likely to become superstars. (the athletes who become superstars are epitomized by Robert Jordan or Junior Seau, etc... They were not given easy ladders, but had to struggle and grow to become great, both psychologically and physically)

    For these reasons, it is far better to make an argument that all athletes will respond to, not arguments that are pushing away the athletes who you really want. I'm not sure whether Kozan is or isn't, but it is a good idea for Coach Embree to review what happened in the spring and make adjustments if needed. (and on a related note with the Denver Post story about Valor Christian, just because the parents feel some sense of Entitlement, doesn't mean their children will.)
     
  2. Creebuzz

    Creebuzz Club Member Club Member

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    somebody was a psych major.
     
  3. Idot Buff

    Idot Buff Club Member Club Member

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    Wow. Always wondered what one did with a psych major....now I know.
     
  4. Bill Cody

    Bill Cody Well-Known Member

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    I would add that, while it is disappointing to some that JE's message did not resonate with some (or many) of the in state kids, I do understand why it did not. That being said, I disagree that JE would change his message if given the chance to deliver it again. What is most important is to identify the kids that will relish the challenge which he is delivering. Not convincing kids to take up the challenge so much as identifying kids that seek out these types of challenges. The latter type of kid is what CU desperately needs at this point in time if it is going to be successful in changing the culture in a way that JE envisions.
     
  5. lawdogg

    lawdogg Club Member Club Member

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    It's already been said, but, the fact that these kids decided to go elsewhere does not make them weak or timid or losers in the game of life. It means that they were not interested in playing for a coach with JE's personality style. In my opinion, I want for JE to continue to be up front and honest because it's better for the kids to find out before they make their college decision what life is going to be like. I think JE was being sincere when he issued the "challenge" to these young men, and I think that's exactly what he should continue to be. The program has struggled and everybody who signs up to play now is doing so to help turn things around. Unlike other guys though, the sense is that it means something extra special for an in-state kid to put that jersey on with COLORADO on the front, and to restore luster to a once proud program. It's really not that provocative of a statement, but it really put some people off. The show must go on though and we wish those other kids well.
     
  6. Quattro

    Quattro Banned BANNED Club Member

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    Sit on AllBuffs all day? You should go back to school.
     
  7. Idot Buff

    Idot Buff Club Member Club Member

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    So you are a psych major as well? Glad to have you back, bitch.
     
  8. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    Interesting theory - but we can look at the success of the highly rated Colorado kids who go out-of-state to get a sense of your theory:

    2010
    Chris Martin (5* - Cal) - May be out of football right now, at least bouncing around junior colleges
    Danny Spond (4* - ND) - Seems to be doing well, but not currently on ND 2-deep
    Nduka Onyeali (4* - ASU) - Starting at DE for ASU
    Dillon Bonnell (4* Stanford) -Seems to be doing fine, but not currently on Stan 2-deep
    Mister Jones (4* TAMU) - Transferred out of TAMU, Not sure where he is now

    2009
    Nick Kasa (4* CU) - Saw playing time late in the year after switching to TE. Future uncertain
    Jack Harris (4* CU) - I believe he was starting, or at least 2nd on the depth chart at OT until he was hurt this year. Bright future
    Matthew Tucker (4* ASU) - 3rd on the depth chart at WILL

    2008
    Bryce Givens (4* CU) - Washed out of CU and football it looks like, in trouble with the law
    Jon Major (4* CU) - Starting at LB for the Buffs
    Nolan Brewster (4* UT) - SApparently a stud until concussions caught up to him

    2007
    Ryan Miller (5* CU) - Started at CU for most of his career, despite injury. Probable NFL draft pick
    Drew Davis (4* OU) - Started at WR for the Ducks his senior year, looked to be a big contributor. Signed as a UDFA for the Atlanta Falcons this year, but hasn't yet seen any time

    Of course I didn't drill down into the 3*'s - but Nate Solder was also a 1st round draft pick and apparently is a starting LT in the NFL.
     
  9. Colobuffs21

    Colobuffs21 Club Member Club Member

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    I think you meant nolan brewster. And he was a stud at Texas till he had to call it quits this year because of concussions. Kozan is a stud, and I would love to have him. I think we should stop speculating. We should all want a quality lineman staying home, and hopefully he reads how much Colorado would love to have him representing our state school.
     
  10. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    Thanks - I just went by his most recent bio which showed some ST this year I think since I don't follow UT. Now I see where he had to call it quits. Too bad
     
  11. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    split from kozan's thread
     
  12. TimmyDUBs

    TimmyDUBs Dirty haole Club Member

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    That stuff can be learned from reading a myers-Briggs test book for about five minutes. Go to tattered cover and check it out. It is actually really fun and I treating to figure out what you are and how that relates to outlook, goals, what makes you happy, etc. Iwas obsessed for a while.
     
  13. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    So was this board.... for awhile everyone had their personality profile in their signature line. INTJ was me if I remember :lol:
     
  14. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    :lol: I like your posts. But do me a favor. Prior to your next post, smoke a doobie. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Creebuzz

    Creebuzz Club Member Club Member

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    I've taken the myers Briggs test. I actually use a similar test (predictive index) on new employees, mostly because HR requires it. Never put much stock in them, though. I just try not to hire Aholes.
     
  16. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    Myers-Briggs says I'm a sensitive type.

    Kids who leave the state are ****ing traitors!
     
  17. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    Sometimes a burrito is just a burrito
     
  18. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    That is heavy!
     
  19. Highlander27

    Highlander27 Well-Known Member

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    Bah. Worthless commentary. Here's the bottom line: Embree is recruiting a mentality. I think the message hit home with guys like Norgard & Hennington, and was totally missed by those who won't be in black and gold next season. So be it. Down the line Embree is going win or lose based on how he builds this team so if he is ardent to find some tough ass kids, who are mentality strong, like him, better to throw down the gauntlet and weed them out early than drag on the process. I want guys who will run through walls for this program. I feel that Embree does too. Not a bad way to start a program in the right direction.
     
  20. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    As long as we sign kids to fill out a class, it is all good.
     
  21. Buffs4Life

    Buffs4Life Member

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    As I shared in a previous post, my son was in the room when Coach Embree spoke at Spring Game and what you've stated above is exactly what he heard Coach Embree say on that day. We don't have to wait for Coach Embree to have the chance to say it better in the future because it's already been said, and for some in the room that day it actually was very exciting! Clay did not feel any "dubious power of guilt" in the statements made to the group, and the words spoken at that time made him excited to be a part of what is to come for the University of Colorado.

    Growing up in Colorado has very little to do with why he identified with the statements that were made, and much more to do with the personality (since we're talking about personalities) he has exhibited since he was a very small child. Coaches like Jon Embree have always been the ones that could light a fire in his heart and make him want to do everything possible to help his team succeed. For that reason (Embree having a coaching style and personality that Clay identifies with and gravitates toward) CU is the right fit for him. Not because CU happens to be in the state he was raised in, but because the men that are leading this team are men that Clay can identify with and wants to do well for.

    If others in that room didn't hear that same message, then that is their reality. And fortunately for them, they all have other options and chances to find a coach and team that will fit their personality and make them want to everything possible to help that team succeed. This fit has little to nothing to do with location of school and much more to do with coaching style and what an individual athlete will respond to. I wholeheartedly disagree that a coach's pitch should be one that appeals to all athletes, because all athletes will not necessarily respond to the same coaching styles. Sugar-coating or sanitizing a message for mass appeal does nothing to help a team or a player find the fit that's best for both, and I am confident that Jon Embree is emotionally intelligent enough to realize that.
     
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  22. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    Thank you for sharing this.

    One thing that I see over and over with the current players and the kids who have made verbal commitments is that they're much more invested than I usually see. They all seem very motivated to go beyond earning their scholarship and doing their own job. These kids are about the team and the program. They want competition for starting jobs because they know it will make the team better. They go out of their way to connect with other recruits and give their pitch on the program. They talk about things like doing well to respect what the Buffs before them have accomplished.

    What that all adds up to from my perspective is that Embree has already succeeded in job #1 for him. This team and program is a family again.
     
  23. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    That's encouraging! I like that! Encourage me more!
     
  24. bigbang2

    bigbang2 Typical, brain knowledge or the ability to have a

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    It no secret i am not a huge fan of Colorado HS football. But Kozan is a very good player, still want at CU. After saying that not really feeling the hype surrounding Colorado HS kids. Apart from Hennignton, Kozan, Flores, and Nogard, the talent level is not all that. Whenever i see folks on here cry about losing out on instate talent, i shake my head, whats so great about Colorado HS football. Still can't get over the Brock Berglund hype on this board.
     
  25. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    You call out other posters and then continue your ridiculous Flores hype? Good work.
     
  26. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    Flores must have been an animal in the Mullen spring game.
     
  27. liverflukes

    liverflukes Resident Bear Club Member

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    Best quote of the thread. Btw...WTF was this about?
     
  28. Ozbuff

    Ozbuff Member

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    To make a long story short, there are a few 4* players in Colorado this year that have either "gotten away" (unless CU manages to flip them before signing day) or seem like they'll sign elsewhere. Being Buff enthusiasts, we can't help but speculate on reasons for players not wanting to play at CU, particularly with what looks like a very promising coaching staff. There were some suggestions that maybe it had to do with players not buying into coach Embree's vision for the football program. Some folks took exception to that and wondered why in-state kids wouldn't want to be part of rebuilding CU to past glory. They in turn bothered other folks who thought they were being too harsh on the players. The result is a discussion on human psychology rife with insults. In other words, the same as every other thread on Allbuffs.
     
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  29. aeroxx

    aeroxx New Member

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    Thanks Buffnik, that is was the implication I was driving towards. I wholeheartedly agree that we have some much tougher, grittier, and determined players... Just look at the performance Greg Henderson gave us this year. Especially when we played USC, he played out of his mind!

    Yo Highlander, I'm not sure what worthless commentary you are referring to. I and others were describing how and why Coach Embree might not be recruiting the right mentality most effectively.

    Thanks Buff4Life, I was thinking about your post and trying to frame it in a slightly different way.

    For the record i wasn't a psych major. I am a proud Aerospace Engineering grad. For those interested, i highly recommend Kiersey, who is more practical and applied, as opposed to Briggs. it should be required reading if you ask me.

    It does not at all surprise me Dia if you are an NTJ... hahahaha. Thanks for that list. That is really interesting in its own right.

    My theory was not quite as you implied Dia. (I should have been a little more concrete). I was suggesting that there might be a correlation between students who worked hard and were not highly recruited as opposed to students who were highly recruited but didn't work as hard. (as exemplified by students who are lionized in their district, get all the honors, go to their big state school, then don't have the tools to work through adversity.) There is obviously no way to gather enough information, such as knowing what athletes' motivations and intentions are, to decide this question.

    I was not trying to assess whether an athlete should stay in state or out of state. Nor was I implying (ex poste facto) that a student, who went out of state was better or worse than one who did not.

    I was trying to explain which students would respond to a pride argument and which might not. I was also questioning the effectiveness and the values embedded in this kind of argument. I wasn't in the room, so I don't know precisely what JE said. And even if i was there, I might not be able to assess what JE intended. The perception that some students took away from that, as Buffs4life described, could have been the opposite of what JE intended. (I highly doubt the coaches were certainly expecting for most of the top recruits to go elsewhere)

    I do endorse JE's general approach of trying to find the determined, passionate athletes. I am saying that his means for achieving this goal are hampered if a number of recruits aren't able to hear his deeper message because they are distracted by a comment he made.(perhaps it was just an idle, throwaway line that Kozan objected to)

    If we want to argue whether this is a good litmus test for deciding who the right athletes are and those who aren't, we can. My view is that there are better ways to throw down the "challenge" gauntlet, than needing to slap them in the face first. (I'm oversimplifying for comedic effect)

    When I said "making an argument that all students would respond to", what I meant was not that we shouldn't challenge and filter our prospects. I just want the athlete who turns us away, to say "I don't want to enroll at CU because JE is too intense, and he wants too much of us." If someone doesn't want that, I'm delighted to let them go another way. But I think effective hiring or recruiting is about focusing on the core issues, not superficial factors like pride. On the other hand, if an athlete does have pride and doesn't want to enroll in a losing program, simply because of the past results or how his rep might look, then the coaches know the athlete doesn't have a championship mentality. Again, I don't know what the coaches said or where the recruits' minds are, but the signs so far this year point to some fine-tuning, so the coaches don't turn them off before they get a chance to assess the in-state prospects.

    I very much appreciate all the good commentary on this site, and all the honesty provided by Buffs4Life and many others. I thought I would share my thoughts.
     
  30. Nor Cal Buff

    Nor Cal Buff Well-Known Member

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    Do you know how many 4 and 5* kids there are in a given year compared to 2 and 3* kids? A much larger percentage of kids rated 5* end up in the NFL than the percentage of 3* kids that go on to play in the NFL.
     

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