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The Truth

Discussion in 'Colorado Basketball Message Board' started by EddieCrowder, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. EddieCrowder

    EddieCrowder Club Member Club Member

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  2. HUFset

    HUFset Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you are in agreement that college bball should turn into the NBA; be full of flop, continuation and phantom fouls. NO THANKS!
     
  3. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    There are a lot of college hoops guys who believe that the NBA & International get a lot of rules right to make the game more fun to watch. Bilas is all over this. To me, college is more fun to watch in spite of not having as good of rules & could be unreal if they'd adjust some things. I'll post more on this later when I have time.
     
  4. EddieCrowder

    EddieCrowder Club Member Club Member

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    Not exactly, what I am in agreement with is the fact that MCBB is loaded with 30% foul shooters, and players that cant throw it in the ocean if they are standing on the beach. There are a ton of reasons why this is, not the least of which is the AAU "your a star, ME" game that has all but made fundamental's extinct. John Wooden would vomit watching the garbage that is played today.
    Hell High School ball was a better game in the 80's then this is. Do I want the NCAA to play like the NBA, NO, I want it to look like basketball, which it currently does not.
     
  5. onealcd

    onealcd Club Member Club Member

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    I have always like Doug Gottlieb's take on college basketball and in his tweet last night he listed out a couple reasons teams can't score: too many D-1 teams, passing, shooting, spacing, shot selection, overall yough w/pro exodous, and youth coaching.
     
  6. dply

    dply Doble hoja Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. onealcd

    onealcd Club Member Club Member

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    It is funny to me that he criticizes the NCAA regular season when the NBA regular season is almost unwatchable outside of a couple teams.
     
  8. EddieCrowder

    EddieCrowder Club Member Club Member

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    The NBA has nothing to do with this and the fact it was mentioned is nothing but the equal of an "Oh yeah well my Dad" argument. For me, maybe not you, I will watch UCF vs Louisville on a random Thursday night in September for a CFB game. Why the game is played at a high skill level and is entertaining. On the other hand I have no interest in watching a game like MSU vs OSU in February. The game is like watching paint dry, and I am in a bigger majority then those that would be compelled to watch. The way the game is played has made the only thing that matters the conference tournaments, and the NCAA tournament.
     
  9. dply

    dply Doble hoja Club Member

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    Isn't that the beauty of college sports though? You can usually find a few teams that play the style you like no matter what style you like.
     
  10. EddieCrowder

    EddieCrowder Club Member Club Member

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    I agree, but its been several years since I saw a team that moved without the ball, worked for quality shots and then made them, and when fouled could actually use the stripe to their advantage by making the opponent pay for it. For the most part MCBB is inbound the ball jack a 3 and hope for an offensive rebound. I went to Greeley West when Tad was at Central, I was a year older. We had a great tradition under coach John Berleffi in fact he was named National HS Coach of the Year in the late 70's. Both of those teams played with more fundamentals then what we see form the average MCBB team today.
     
  11. onealcd

    onealcd Club Member Club Member

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    I thought Notre Dame did a good job with that this year. Very fundamentally sound.
     
  12. EddieCrowder

    EddieCrowder Club Member Club Member

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    They are the first team I have watched in a while that were entertaining, I agree
     
  13. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    This topic has been out there.

    Here's some from a Grantland column:

    Here are two statements about NCAA men’s basketball, both true. First, NCAA men’s basketball is manic, unpredictable, full of joyful chaos; it’s a crazy sideshow fans love for its combination of upsets, buzzer-beaters, frenzied comebacks, court-storming, dancing, and weeping. Second, NCAA men’s basketball is a brutal grind, a low-scoring, conservative game dominated by clampdown defense and half-court sets that look like they’re being run on wet sand.

    Field goal percentage is down. Possessions are down. Scoring is down to just over 67 points per game, its lowest level since the early 1950s, after declining in 13 of the last 15 seasons. Attendance is down. Turnovers are just about the only thing in college basketball that has recently gone up.

    http://grantland.com/the-triangle/college-basketballs-scoring-problem/

    Referenced in the Grantland piece, here's part of what Seth Davis had to say at SI in his call for an "Extreme Makeover":

    College basketball is slower, more grinding, more physical and more, well, offensive than it has been in a long, long time. The 2014-15 season is shaping up to be the worst offensive season in modern history. Through Feb. 22, teams were averaging 67.1 points per game. That is the lowest average since 1952.

    “I have great concerns,” says Dan Gavitt, the NCAA’s vice president of men’s basketball championships. “The trends are long-term and unhealthy. I think some people understand the urgency of it, but there are others who think the rhetoric is sensationalized and that it’s not as bad as people make it out to be. There are enough people concerned that there is movement to get things done.”

    [Davis goes on to lay out a lot of numbers to make the case for the problems in the game. The following are his solutions, with details on each if you read the full column (highly recommended, it's great work)]

    1. The shot clock should be shortened to 30 seconds.
    2. The arc under the basket should be extended to four feet.
    3. The lane should be wider.
    4. The three-point line should be deeper.
    5. There should be fewer time outs.

    http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/02/26/hoop-thoughts-college-basketball-scoring-pace

    And then there's what Jay Bilas laid out in ESPN The Magazine (ESPN Insider content):

    To the old-timers who love to blame AAU basketball for the so-called erosion of fundamentals, that is simply wrong. The players coming out of high school are better, more athletic and more skilled than they have ever been, but you wouldn't know it from watching the college game. For years, the casual fan couldn't tell the difference between a good game and a close game, and college basketball has benefited from that; but now, it's clear to everyone how difficult the game has become to watch.

    Here are four ways college basketball could follow the League's lead.

    Make officials, well, official.
    So, whether it is through the NCAA or the big conferences, the best college officials need to be full-time, salaried employees; their schedules, training and accountability should be administered under one umbrella.

    Clean it up.
    Over a decade ago, the NBA had become a grinding, physical, mugging league; beauty and grace were being sacrificed in the flames of the Jordan Rules. But the League went through a Freedom of Movement initiative, and cleaned up its act. College basketball still lags in that area, convinced it "values" or "cares" about defense more. What nonsense.

    In turn, because officials will only call so many fouls, coaches have determined that organized fouling is a competitive advantage.

    Speed it up.
    There is no shot clock in the world that is as long as the 35 seconds in men's college hoops. The NBA (24 seconds), FIBA (24 seconds), the WNBA (24 seconds) and women's college basketball (30 seconds) all operate successfully with shorter shot clocks. That is embarrassing.

    While we're on the topic of speed of the game, college basketball would benefit by going to a four-quarters system instead of two halves, and reducing the number of team timeouts. With media timeouts every four minutes, the number of team timeouts should be reduced to only two per half, with only two available in the last two minutes of the game or overtime. And by going to four 10-minute quarters instead of two 20-minute halves, there would be more natural breaks that follow exciting end-of-clock situations, and fewer annoying stoppages in play while still allowing the necessary amount of commercial breaks.

    Let the talent shine.
    Right now the men's game is unbalanced, with too many shots coming from 3-point range because the risk of the shot is less than the reward. If the NCAA adopted the NBA 3-point distance of 23 feet, 9 inches, it would improve floor spacing, open up better driving lanes and put the appropriate risk back into the shot.
    At the same time, the lane should be widened to match the NBA lane, with the same restricted area or charge circle.
    One last thought (and it's a no-brainer): Allow the NBA throw-in from the frontcourt in the final two minutes of regulation and overtime. This move not only increases excitement and makes the game more enjoyable for fans, but it allows for greater strategy on the part of both the offense and the defense.

    http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-col...as-ideas-fix-college-basketball-espn-magazine

    In short, and I agree with all of the above, the NCAA could dramatically improve the game by implementing the following rules:

    1. Widening lane, extending block/charge circle, and moving 3 pt line back (same as NBA).
    2. Implement the NBA's defensive 3 second rule along with the "Freedom of Movement" rules that got rid of holding and body fouls.
    3. Reduce shot clock to 24 seconds. Reduce back court to 8 seconds.
    4. Eliminate some of the timeouts (coach & media) while making things more tv friendly with 4 quarters -- which would add tension moments.
    5. Hire full-time officials.

    I disagree with Bilas on the 1-and-1 fouls. I think they add tension and excitement. I like teams to have to be clutch from the line in the last few minutes of the game.

    There's a vocal, general consensus on that stuff from some opinion leaders in the college hoops community.

    I'd throw another one out there that has some support: reduce the number of D1 teams. All of these conferences that are the equivalent of FCS in football that never get more than 1 bid to the Dance and never have a program with a Top 100 RPI... make them D2 again. It's enough to have 250 or so programs competing for the 64 tourney bids (yes, I'm for eliminating the play-in games as part of this move).

     
  14. hokiehead

    hokiehead Gobbler on the Mountain Club Member

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    Not sure. The one change I want is for officials to call intentional fouls during the last 90 seconds when contact without real attempt to get the ball is made.
     
  15. hokiehead

    hokiehead Gobbler on the Mountain Club Member

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    Oh. And I disagree fully about reducing the number of D1.teams -- seems like another attempt to create a subdivision within college ball. The beauty of the ncaa tourney is small schools getting a shot at the big guys.
     
  16. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    Nothing more exciting than seeing Charleston Southern, Idaho State, North Florida, UMBC, Arkansas Pine Bluff, Marist, Delaware State, Farleigh Dickinson, Lehigh, Furman, Lamar and/or Texas Southern on that home slate, amirite?
     
  17. hokiehead

    hokiehead Gobbler on the Mountain Club Member

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    No. But my post referred to the tourney.

    And, noted on the Seattle thread, lots of fans have had enjoyable experiences seeing road games in small venues.

    But there's ****ty, uninteresting match ups within D1 too. Doubt too many Blue Devils were stoked for the VT match up this year.
     
  18. RumblinBuff

    RumblinBuff That one blogging guy Club Member

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    Thoughts (presented in no particular flow or organization):

    Defensive 3 seconds and a wider lane would really help. Too much clutter underneath.

    I like the three-point line where it is, but could be convinced otherwise.

    Gut the timeouts. Coaches sit on the game like a paperweight. Stop micromanaging.

    NBA shot clock. 30 acceptable, but 24 better.

    Actual jump balls.

    Officials will always remain an issue. *shrugs* If these guys can't figure out block/charge, how're they supposed to get freedom of movement? Full-time officials is a pipe dream. The SWAC aint paying for that, and neither is the NCAA.

    Eliminate fouling up three. It's not basketball.

    I like the 4,000+ D1 teams we have, thank you very much.
     
  19. PAHIBuff

    PAHIBuff Club Member Club Member

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    I don't have any take on Geno's opinions about the men's game, but I have believed for a long time that he's the best coach in basketball - women's, men's, or professional.
     
  20. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    I think it's apples and oranges. What I would say is that there is greater separation between Geno and his peers than there is between the alpha coach and peers in the other leagues. I just wouldn't say that puts him atop the mountain ahead of K, Cal, Pop & a few others.
     
  21. SECOBuffsFan

    SECOBuffsFan Active Member

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    My problem with college basketball is it is either over-officiated or over-coached
     
  22. TDforTD

    TDforTD Banned BANNED Club Member

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    I'm not sure how anyone could hate where basketball is now after watching basketball in the 90s. The game is world's better now. 90s was the iso-ball era (at least in the NBA).

    The only thing I don't like about today's game is that it is virtually impossible for a big man to dominate night in and night out like it used to be. Some people prefer that tho and it's why the rules have changed the way they have. Again tho, anything is better than the 90s(specifically late 90s).
     
  23. whatthebuff

    whatthebuff Club Member Club Member

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    Man everything you posted...

    [video=youtube;gFhQ49qsfIQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFhQ49qsfIQ[/video]
     
  24. 89BUFF89

    89BUFF89 Well-Known Member

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    The amount of timeouts they get is ridiculous. I agree with shorter shot clock, wider lane, and the further 3 pt line too...
     
  25. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    The obvious solution is smaller balls.
     
  26. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    DP
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  27. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    That's a painful surgery. Or so I would imagine.

    Actually I much prefer the college game to the pro game. More strategy involved, much more variety in approaches.

    I enjoy good offense but just scoring a lot of points like the NBA does doesn't necessarily mean they are playing great offense. I more often means that you have some outstanding individual talent and/or the defense is missing.

    Certainly the college game (and pro game) could do with more consistent officiating and I do favor a 30 second clock but much of the rest of it is trying to fix something that isn't wrong to make it more like something that isn't right.
     
  28. PAHIBuff

    PAHIBuff Club Member Club Member

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    My #2 would be Coach K, then Pop. IMO people assume that Geno just out-recruits everyone else, but it's not the case. He out-teaches everyone else. Not denying that he does a pretty good job recruiting too. K is a monumental class act. Current presser on ESPN is awesome.
     
  29. TDforTD

    TDforTD Banned BANNED Club Member

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    I'd argue the opposite to be honest. The NBA is better than it has ever been. Individual scoring is harder to come by because of all the quasi-zone teams are playing (Kobe has mentioned this as well), but league wide scoring is up because league wide talent, coaching, and pace is at a never before seen level. I didn't watch basketball in the 80s but 90s basketball was terrible. The 90s were a watered down, out of shape league because they added 6 teams in 10 years and you had guys on championship teams that were out of the league a few years later. The pace of play came to a screeching halt because the philosophy was that clock management won you games. Teams used the entirety of the shot clock, allowing defenses to set up, yet still scored more points in the paint than today because of the awful illegal defense rules. The 90s had little ball movement and more ugly iso ball than I've ever seen, the league probably would have crumbled if it weren't for MJ.

    The league has changed so much. There is so much talent and it's much more complex with all the scouting, preparation, and game-planning involved. Teams shoot more 3s and play at ridiculous paces, that adds to why there is so much scoring. But with where international ball is, as well as the d-league, you really won't make it to the NBA if you dont play defense. Even guys like Harden, Melo, Love, etc aren't bad man defenders. They get lost through all the switching and zones they have to play, which good offenses make sure to take advantage of.
     
  30. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    Just going to have to agree to disagree.

    The NBA is a faster game and of course the talent is concentrated. They also play over 100 games a year for the good teams and don't give full effort much of the time. If you don't believe this just look at how the game changes come playoff time.

    It is a superstar oriented league with the officials catering to the stars and teams differentiated by who has stars and who doesn't. I used to love the NBA but now it just puts me to sleep.
     

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