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This misnomer of "doing things the right way" can be oficially put to rest now.

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by buffs04, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. buffs04

    buffs04 Well-Known Member

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    This misnomer of "doing things the right way" can be officially put to rest now.

    The academic and legal issues appear to be accelerating under Hawkins, not slowing down. This "running a clean program" mantra is pure nonsense. We have had a revolving door of players in the past several years who have been simply unable to keep it together. Simmons wasn't allowed to play anyway, for some unknown reason, but losing 3, 4, 5, or more of our most talented players every single offseason is getting old.

    The CU football team is far from a bunch of choir boys, and I think we are all tired of hearing it used as an excuse for fielding a bad team.

    Well over 50% of the high-profile guys that have been brought here under Hawkins have washed out in one way or another. Good work.

    This roster, coming in to the summer, appeared to only have colossal holes at QB and RB on offense - unfortunate, but to be expected. Add WR to the list now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  2. GoBuffs!!

    GoBuffs!! Active Member

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    "Who likes Cheating???"


    I like winning
     
  3. Lt.Col.FrankSlade

    Lt.Col.FrankSlade Well-Known Member

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    While it is certainly easy to pile on Hawkins for these issues, the issue of players being unable to remain eligible is a systemic problem at CU, not a coaching problem at CU.

    CU is a difficult University. I think a lot of young students arrive at CU and are totally unprepared for what awaits them. I know I was, and I was a middle-class white kid when I came to CU. I am sure for a lot of these kids who are from lower socio-economic groups and not necessarily prepared straight out of high school get quite a shock when they come to CU.

    I know at OU - there is an extensive tutor / academic advisor system for ALL student athletes. I would bet that every student athlete has an individual tutor or advisor or academic person who personally oversees their academic progress. Does CU provide such services for their student athletes?

    Somewhere along the way, the academic system at CU is failing the student athletes. This is not a Dan Hawkins problem. This is a CU problem and it has existed for almost 20 years now.
     
  4. Mick Ronson

    Mick Ronson Well-Known Member

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    Yes. it's called the Herbst Center. i don't know anything about OU's, but CU does have such a thing. whether they are comparable, i dunno. i know from personal experience that the "tutoring" at CU for the athletes has pushed very close to academic misconduct on a couple occasions...and this is in my individual experience. but, this was also under Barney. not implying anything, just saying it happened.

    but, yeah, such a thing exists. agree though on the socio-economic background adjustment for some kids, CU and Boulder are extreme ends of the spectrum (I have a neighbor from Hawaii who is Hawaiian, lived in the States her whole life, and SHE feels like "minority" at CU and in prestige, lily white Boulder)....but, other schools deal with it too.
     
  5. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Clearly, Simmons wasn't working on the little things - like school. It's no wonder he barely saw the field last year, dude just doesn't know how to work on the little things.
     
  6. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    I disagree with this. This is NOT a CU problem, this IS a Dan Hawkins / AD Leadership problem, and based on other sports academic results, this is primarily a Dan Hawkins problem. CU has an extensive academic support network and each department often has it's own network of tutors available to any student having issues. It's on the coaching staff / AD to ensure that struggling athletes know about these options for help, and it's on the student to actually take advantage of them. If a student fails out of CU it's because they were unwilling to use the tools available to them for additional help. At this point, I don't blame admissions for not giving Hawk the benefit of the doubt on marginal admits. He's shown he can't keep any of them eligible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  7. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    No logical reason in the world for DH to be here any longer. There, I said it, I feel better now.
     
  8. boulder77

    boulder77 Certified Organic Club Member

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    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a kid think ....
     
  9. Lt.Col.FrankSlade

    Lt.Col.FrankSlade Well-Known Member

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    But let's not pretend like Dan Hawkins is the ONLY coach who hasn't been able to keep kids in school. These problems go back a long way. Even McCartney had a few kids who flunked out of school. The problem has steadily increased to the point that it appears flunking out is the norm, now.

    I am not sure what Hawkins (or any CU coach for that matter) is supposed to do. He can't follow the players to class. He can't do their homework for them. He can't take their tests for them. He can't study for them. I do not know what information is given to students about the Herbst Center. Perhaps they are told about the resources that are available and they still struggle? I do not pretend to know the answers but I have a hard time placing the blame for the problem on the football coach.
     
  10. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    I don't know how things are handled now. But back in the late 80's (Mac years), I know that there was a very comprehensive study hall & tutor program. Basically, every single scholarship athlete had to take part in it until he/she could prove that it wasn't necessary. I wonder if this has gone by the wayside.
     
  11. Del

    Del Member

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    It seems like there are at least 5 kids in every class that this coaching staff recruits that are borderline going in and have to retakes tests, go to summer school take make up classes yadda yadda. At this point, CU needs to stop recruiting all these borderline assholes who don't give a **** about school. Its not like these are 4 and 5 star guys that could be huge difference makers. There are plenty of 3 star guys out there that we could get that can handle the course load and the staff needs to broaden their scope because the current players "aren't doing the little things like opening a book and going to class". Obviously we have to get the best atheletes we can to win but if Stanford and Cal can get guys into their program and have some on the field success than there is no reason why we can't either. CU also needs to do a serious audit on the Herbst center because whatever they are doing is not working. They need to hire some more tutors and put some money into the program once we start getting more money from the Pac-12 and pay off the forgone revenue.
     
  12. mdelpizzo_1

    mdelpizzo_1 My Dixie Wrecked Club Member

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    What movie was that?
     
  13. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    I have often wondered about the recruiting strategy and I have some suspicions I will keep to myself for now.
     
  14. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    Funny, csu doesn't seem to have these problems....
     
  15. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    CSU entrance exam: Can you fog a mirror?
    CSU degree requirement: Can you fog a mirror and correctly spell your first name with your finger in the fog?
     
  16. CUFan

    CUFan Welcome back Club Member

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    Listen to Alfred talk about how McCartney mentored him and got him through school. DH (or someone from his staff) should be talking to these kids professors on a daily basis. It is a major part of coaching and possibly the most important. Your skill players will always have a tendency to wander academically. They were probably pampered all through high school. Having a good team means caring about your players education and thus keeping your skill players eligible.

    DH reminds me of McDaniels. They don't want skill guys, they want character. If DH had his way we wouldn't give out any more scholarships and just have a team made up entirely of walk-ons.
     
  17. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    Great, more excuses.
     
  18. leftybuff

    leftybuff Iconoclast Club Member

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    :lol:

    How's the Tri City area treating you?
     
  19. Crash Davis

    Crash Davis MA....THE MEATLOAF!!! Club Member

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    Agree with the Colonel. The original post of this thread is such a screwed up way of looking at things I don't even know where to begin.

    A coach is not a babysitter. When you have 100+ 18-22 year olds under your charge, there are going to be issues. It's inevitable that some guys are going to get into trouble. What matters is not whether players get in trouble, what matters is HOW the coach chooses to deal with it WHEN guys get in trouble.

    The fact that there have been some issues does not make Hawkins some kind of hypocrite. What would make him a hypocrite would be if he turned a blind eye to the issues, or was overly lenient in his punishment. Say what you want about Hawkins, but I don't think anyone could argue that Hawkins has done either of those things.

    In fact, Hawkins' ****ty W/L record is probably at least partially BECAUSE he tries to do things the right way and not cut corners. I don't give Hawkins credit for much, but I'll at least give him credit for that. Maybe he's simply not a good enough coach to do things the right way AND win at this level, and by the results so far, I would have to agree. Like many coaches, it seems he underestimated just how difficult it would be to do at CU.

    But sheesh, it seems like some of you just look for any excuse to dogpile on him these days....
     
  20. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    GiVE IT A ****ING REST!
     
  21. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    It's okay, miss colorado big time. Planning a trip either late summer or early summer. Coming back for the georgia game. One good thing, I can see the buffs out here when they play the washington and oregon schools.
     
  22. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    Sorry DBT, but when you've done as poor a job as Dan has done on the field and then use the excuse that it's because you're doing things the right way and focused on the off-field issues, the results don't match the excuse.
     
  23. Lt.Col.FrankSlade

    Lt.Col.FrankSlade Well-Known Member

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    But do you know for a fact that this isn't happening, now? Someone on this board who is a CU professor has already posted that the student athletes get quite a bit of tutoring, sometimes to the extent that it borders on academic fraud.

    At some point, the student athletes have to take some responsibility for their actions. That, and CU should generally stop recruiting JUCO players altogether.
     
  24. CUFan

    CUFan Welcome back Club Member

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    If they are in fact providing that much academic assistance, then I applaud them. And I tend to believe they provide them with quite a bit of assistance. Players do need to take responsibility for their actions. I also think that if you are having trouble recruiting skill players with good grades, you do need to take a chance on some of the ones with poor grades. I guess I just hope they are watching those kids more closely than others.
     
  25. Del

    Del Member

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    If he stopped recruiting these boarderline assholes he wouldn't have to worry would he? And yes he can make his guys go to class and report to a tutor. He can't take the tests for them but he can make sure his guys are in every class and have put in the hours needed to make the grades. If the guys are more than 1 minute late to class they should get the hammer come practice time should miss playing time in games. Happens at SC now under the new regime. You can put systems in place for the guys who are having problems, get a tutor to follow them to class, make sure they have the assignments and drop some dimes on their lazy ass to the coaches if they don't show up. Is it a pain? Yes! should he have to be a baby sitter? No of course not but he when you are a leader have problems you have to take ownership of them and get the system in place to fix them. When I was a platoon leader I did a lot of "baby sitting" with both my soldiers and NCOs and hated every minute of it but eventually the ship was righted and **** started to get done the right way. Get the troubled guys in your program into this type of regiment until they get their **** together and going forward don't recruit guys who don't care about school.
     
  26. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    A Nightmare on Folsom Street.
     
  27. sackman

    sackman Club Member Club Member

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    Couldn't disagree with this last statement any more. Chris Brown was a Juco. In many ways, Juco guys are better. They've been in college and know a little bit about what it takes to succeed in the classroom.

    In the end, this is a failure on the coaching staff. Just like keeping Simas off the road when he's drunk and making him go to his court date are failures of the coaching staff. It's the coaching staff's job to babysit these kids, whether they like it or not. Some kids need more babysitting than others. Some don't need it at all. For the ones that need it, we can't be making excuses for Hawkins by saying "well, he can't be everywhere all the time". BS. He knows which kids need mentoring and oversight and which ones don't. If he doesn't know, he damn well should. It's his job to win football games. If winning football games means assigning a tutor to follow a kid around and drag him to class then that's what he needs to do. He doesn't have the luxury of saying "well, I can't be everywhere" when his job requires these kids to play.
     
  28. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    Then that's our problem. I have a very good friend who worked as a tutor in the OU program, and from her accounts that program didn't just approach academic misconduct, it crossed the line and then jumped on the accelerator. If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.... :smile2:

    (and no, I'm not seriously advocating cheating...)
     
  29. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    OK, I was a little harsh. But here is the deal. The team gpa has gone from something like 2.2 to around 2.7. Thats a pretty big jump. The Denver Post did an article last year on attrition. The perception was that CU's attrition was higher than most. But when they did the research, CU is about the same as the other Big XII schools. Secondly, CU does not have bail out classes for athletes like the other 11 Big XII schools do. Yet we, all of us, harp on the football program to bring in guys like Simmons. We were ALL pumped. Well, before we signed him, he was an academic risk. Yet many fans were ripping the school for not processing him in fast enough. My tad bit of inside info was that the reason he didn't get in sooner had nothing to do with "paper work" and everything to do with him having not completed his work. Everyone knew, or should have known, that this kid was a academic risk. Now you guys are ripping Hawkins because he did not stay elligible. I think it is very hypocriticle.
     
  30. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    I think its funny how we rip Rick Reilly for coming down on GB because he couldn't keep tabs on all of his players while Rick couldn't keep tabs on his daughter and her friends. But when its Hawkins, well, HELL YEAH! HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE ON TOP OF ALL THAT HIS PLAYERS DO!!
     

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