This misnomer of "doing things the right way" can be oficially put to rest now.

[SanDiegoBuff]

OK, I was a little harsh. But here is the deal. The team gpa has gone from something like 2.2 to around 2.7. Thats a pretty big jump. The Denver Post did an article last year on attrition. The perception was that CU's attrition was higher than most. But when they did the research, CU is about the same as the other Big XII schools. Secondly, CU does not have bail out classes for athletes like the other 11 Big XII schools do. Yet we, all of us, harp on the football program to bring in guys like Simmons. We were ALL pumped. Well, before we signed him, he was an academic risk. Yet many fans were ripping the school for not processing him in fast enough. My tad bit of inside info was that the reason he didn't get in sooner had nothing to do with "paper work" and everything to do with him having not completed his work. Everyone knew, or should have known, that this kid was a academic risk. Now you guys are ripping Hawkins because he did not stay elligible. I think it is very hypocriticle.

Ultimately none of this matters. It's Hawkins job to win games. He needs to keep his players eligible to win games. If he can't keep his players eligible, he gets fired.

It really doesn't matter whose fault it is, but it is Hawkins RESPONSIBILITY having signed on to coach, mentor and field a winning football team.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Chris Brown was a Juco.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Chris Brown went to JUCO because of his grades / test scores. I am pretty sure he was a full qualifier right out of high school, and he went to JUCO because he didn't get any decent offers. He left his JUCO after his freshman year to go to Northwestern/Colorado.

 

[sackman]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Chris Brown went to JUCO because of his grades / test scores. I am pretty sure he was a full qualifier right out of high school, and he went to JUCO because he didn't get any decent offers. He left his JUCO after his freshman year to go to Northwestern/Colorado.

He was recruited out of HS to Northwestern. He transferred to the JUCO, then to CU. Shawn Mohler was a Juco, too. He was a kid who supposedly had some serious academic issues that he worked hard to overcome. Being a Juco isn't the issue, IMO.

 

[SINKRATZ]

College is hard, and were it not for their athletic ability a lot of these kids would never have a chance of being admitted to CU. There is a shared resposibility between the coach and player to help him succeed. The coach makes a committment, by offering the scholarship, to see to it that the student atlete has every resource available to him to be successful. The student, by accepting, agrees to do the work and take the help. There was a failure here and it's hard to know who is at fault.

What amazes me is that Simmons apparently had to bust his a** to get into CU in the first place and now he washes out, WTF?!? The ability is in him somewhere. Sad.

 

[DBT]

Ultimately none of this matters. It's Hawkins job to win games. He needs to keep his players eligible to win games. If he can't keep his players eligible, he gets fired.

It really doesn't matter whose fault it is, but it is Hawkins RESPONSIBILITY having signed on to coach, mentor and field a winning football team.

All schools and all coaches have to deal with academic and otherwise attrition. All of them. I don't like being put into the position of defending Hawkins because I now it paints me as a Hawkins apologist. But someone here has to be, at least, somewhat of a voice of reason.

 

[BuffMania]

2 catches...that's what Simmons gave us. 2 catches.

And that's why I tried telling many of you to temper your expectations of a JUCO arrival.

 

[SanDiegoBuff]

All schools and all coaches have to deal with academic and otherwise attrition. All of them. I don't like being put into the position of defending Hawkins because I now it paints me as a Hawkins apologist. But someone here has to be, at least, somewhat of a voice of reason.

You're right, every school ahs to deal with attrition. It's a fact of college athletics.

This situation is a bit different though. It's equally the student's fault for failing out, but this make Hawkins look like an asshole to the rest of the school. One of his primary excuses is how CU is so much harder than other schools and how admissions won't give the team a break, yet when they do, the kids wash out. Why should admissions bend over backwards to let in at-risk kids when Hawkins can't find enough time in his busy schedule to really ensure those at-risk kids succeed. If he wants things to change, he needs to be proactive and show that he and his staff are putting in the effort to make the change worth while. Things aren't going to get easier for Hawkins and loosen up until he can show that he won't fail when the school goes out on a limb for him.

And cut out the BS about CU not having a PE program or other easy majors. There are plenty of majors and classes at CU that you can sleep through and still get an 'A', let alone a 'C'. It's really not that f'n hard.

 

[sackman]

2 catches...that's what Simmons gave us. 2 catches.

And that's why I tried telling many of you to temper your expectations of a JUCO arrival.

How much was he on the field? Hell, he was riding the pine while guys like Ebner and Espinoza were getting playing time. You don't go out and recruit a JUCO WR and sit his ass on the bench. It's insanity.

 

[buffs04]

I wouldn't be shocked if Dan Hawkins recruits players he knows won't fly at CU so he can use it as an excuse when they wash out. This guys entire operation is one enormous excuse machine. Remember when he had the pr people conduct a comprehensive study of youth among football teams and didn't publicize it, because the results didn't back up his youth excuse, which he has since moved on from? In one of the bolder uses of irony I have ever personally witnessed, he even made a speach about "10 wins and no excuses" then proceeded to do nothing all season long but make excuses because he fell 7 games short of his guarantee in a 12 game season.

If we are going to keep Dan Hawkins because "he does things the right way" - which is clearly not the reason he is actually still here, but that's another topic - then shouldn't he be actually doing things the right way? Instead, these problems come up time and time again. CU was actually penalized scholarships because of academic issues!. The team gpa went from a 2.2 to a 2.7... so, from right around a C+ average to... right around a C+ average. Amazing work, really. Especially when you consider how difficult it is to get passing grades and such rigorous majors as communications and sociology.

The team is getting scholarships taken away from them by the NCAA because of poor academic performance and the spin-cycle contrarians want to say we are doing well in the classroom? That is flat-out ridiculous.

Here is your argument, in all of its glory:

1. Well, the football team isn't any good, but we need to keep Hawkins because the team is doing well in school
2. Team isn't actually doing so well in school
3. It isn't his fault. He does things the right way.

It is circular, faulty logic. If Hawkins truly can't be held accountable for keeping his players eligible and making sure they get reasonable grades, then that reason for retaining him or argument in his general support shouldn't be used anymore. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Mick Ronson]

But do you know for a fact that this isn't happening, now? Someone on this board who is a CU professor has already posted that the student athletes get quite a bit of tutoring, sometimes to the extent that it borders on academic fraud.

At some point, the student athletes have to take some responsibility for their actions. That, and CU should generally stop recruiting JUCO players altogether.

allegedly, from Hawk's own mouth the academic support has really improved in his time. i haven't had a football player since the summer before last. i will say, as an instructor, you are required to fill out a midterm grade report for student-athetes that is essentially "name" and "current grade" and "comments"....once a semester. it's not like doing your taxes, takes about 1 minute per. i've never received any return communication from Herbst. it's not exactly like you are in communication with people all the time. the student-athletes are pretty lazy about their paperwork for missing classes, etc.

i doubt that Mac talked with all his player's profs. 100 players with potentially about 300 profs allowing for a generous amount of players in the same courses. and this before email

 

[Junction]

I think its funny how we rip Rick Reilly for coming down on GB because he couldn't keep tabs on all of his players while Rick couldn't keep tabs on his daughter and her friends. But when its Hawkins, well, HELL YEAH! HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE ON TOP OF ALL THAT HIS PLAYERS DO!!

I think there's some difference between expecting the coaches to know what the players are doing at 2 in the morning every night, all year and thinking the coach might want to be on top of a situation where one of his best players has a single court date, known weeks in advance. I think there's a difference when a coach tells anybody who will listen (and most people who won't) that he's all about doing things the "right way" and how they're focusing on making sure these kids are well rounded and getting the full college experience. When he sells his program in that way to parents, to administrators and to fans, I think he assumes the responsibility for things like this. If he can't actually control them (and to a large degree he can't), he should quit selling his ability to produce them....

 

[MtnBuff]

To start with every school has some of these problems so we are not alone. We have also had issues under every coach we have had that I can remember and I am one of the old farts on this board so I can remember back to Mallory. CU is also at a big disadvantage in this regard in three respects, one Boulder and the state are not gaga in love with CU football like you see in Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, Florida, etc. so it is harder to slide kids through and harder to keep this kind of news under the rug. Secondly and related to the first, the university culture is not set up around keeping players eligible because or image and self-esteem is based on winning football games. The AD has an academic support staff and system that works hard at this task and we have had coaches that work hard at the task but it is not like some other schools were general faculty feel like they have to put extra effort into supporting the athletes or face social or proffessional consequences. Thirdly, CU does not have some of the elgibility majors that a lot of other schools use to keep marginal students academically eligible. CU does not offer PE degrees (sorry Sports Science and Human Physical Development for my friends who have those degrees) nor does CU offer a lot of the other general study type degrees that athletes at many other schools end up in. I still laugh a bit thinking of a few years ago when at the start of a televised OU game the players all introduced themselves by name, position, hometown, and major. One after another was a communications major but even their introductions were barely understandable and often gramatically incorrect even in those few short words.

This all said it does come back to Hawkins, his job is to recruit players who can handle the academic challenges at CU and makes sure that they have the support to do so. Will some fail, certainly that is normal anywhere, but for someone who has built his job security on doing things right his failure rate has been excessively high.

Bottom line, losing has impacted this issue as well. The top quality players who are also clearly ready for the academics go elsewhere where they have a higher chance to win while getting their education. Hawkins ends up with the leftovers, players who are good enough to play but a high risk in the classroom or players who can handle the academics but are not on par on the field. This results in a high attrition rate because a number of these guys will either not develop into good enough students or players to make it and leave. This problem will not go away until we have a fresh start with a new coach who can convince players who are capable both academically and physically that CU is the place for them to pursue their educations.

 

[MtnBuff]

How much was he on the field? Hell, he was riding the pine while guys like Ebner and Espinoza were getting playing time. You don't go out and recruit a JUCO WR and sit his ass on the bench. It's insanity.

:yeahthat:I wonder how much of this is due to Simmons, after busting his a** to get in, finds himself sitting on the bench when guys who are clearly less talented than him get the playing time and it isn't working.

I can see how a lot of guys playing for hawk would get a "Why bother?" attitude about football and academics.

 

[Del]

Hawk needs to be better at the art of delegation. He doesn't have to keep track of everybody on the team thats what his staff is for. He has position coaches that should be assigned this duty which then breaks it down to 15-20 guys per coach.

After the first week of school the players should be required to hand over a copy of the syllabus for each class to the position coach. He can put important dates such as mid terms and papers onto his little spread sheet so that he knows when his guys have stuff coming up. Next to each player there should also be contact information on his tutor so that he can get ahold of this guy or gal and check in on the progress.

The coaches should have a weekly meeting with the tutors and get updates on progress and classes that are posing problems for his assigned guys. The tutors should hand in a sheet which tracks anytime a player skips class or doesn't show up to a tutorial. If the position coaches have guys who are in trouble then they need to reach out to the professors and the Herbst center to see what they need/can do on their end to set these guys up for success. If problems persist then take it out on the guys in practice/weight room and limit playing time until they get it right.

I'm NOT saying this is the best way to go about this by any means but rather just trying to illustrate there are things that the staff can do to make sure the guys they have the best possible chance to make it in school. There is more than one way to skin a cat I'm just saying the excuse that Hawk can't be expected to keep track of 85 guys is bull**** and I don't buy it. He is the leader of the program and he needs to set up the system/s so that he doesn't have to do this. Brigade commanders don't keep tabs on the 4,000 soldiers in their units but they sure as hell have the systems in place to make sure they can get whatever info they need and are held accountable

 

[DBT]

How much was he on the field? Hell, he was riding the pine while guys like Ebner and Espinoza were getting playing time. You don't go out and recruit a JUCO WR and sit his ass on the bench. It's insanity.

He could not learn the play book.

 

[El Gringo]

Couldn't disagree with this last statement any more. Chris Brown was a Juco. In many ways, Juco guys are better. They've been in college and know a little bit about what it takes to succeed in the classroom.

Bad example Sacky. Barney recruited Brown to North-freekin-western. When Barney took the CU job, brown did a year a Juco so he could play rather than have to sit out a year, then came to CU.

 

[BlackNGold]

Yes. it's called the Herbst Center. i don't know anything about OU's, but CU does have such a thing. whether they are comparable, i dunno. i know from personal experience that the "tutoring" at CU for the athletes has pushed very close to academic misconduct on a couple occasions...and this is in my individual experience. but, this was also under Barney. not implying anything, just saying it happened.

but, yeah, such a thing exists. agree though on the socio-economic background adjustment for some kids, CU and Boulder are extreme ends of the spectrum (I have a neighbor from Hawaii who is Hawaiian, lived in the States her whole life, and SHE feels like "minority" at CU and in prestige, lily white Boulder)....but, other schools deal with it too.

CU has tripled the academic support budget since Hawkins got here but has little to show for it.

 

[GoBuffs!!]

What movie was that?

Not a movie, it was during the Coaches Tour, Hawkins started his speach off with "Who likes Cheating?" then the rumble of we like winning was muddered. True life is a lot funnier than movies sometimes

 

[14ers4me]

:yeahthat:I wonder how much of this is due to Simmons, after busting his a** to get in, finds himself sitting on the bench when guys who are clearly less talented than him get the playing time and it isn't working.

I can see how a lot of guys playing for hawk would get a "Why bother?" attitude about football and academics.

:dito: He obviously did something right to get in and worked hard to do so. Why he wasn't more productive on the field is another story. He played in every game. 2 catches? Doesn't seem possible.

 

[leftybuff]

Not a movie, it was during the Coaches Tour, Hawkins started his speach off with "Who likes Cheating?" then the rumble of we like winning was muddered. True life is a lot funnier than movies sometimes

Are you serious? Sorry, but that is pretty pathetic. MB must cringe every time DH gets near a mic. So that is where the "winners must be cheating" suggestions came from, what a goof.

 

[DBT]

I know of at least one player who shows up to class with a lady who takes his notes. A tutor, I assume. Now, if the coach is having tutors actually attend class with a player, how much more can he do? :lol:

 

[MtnBuff]

I know of at least one player who shows up to class with a lady who takes his notes. A tutor, I assume. Now, if the coach is having tutors actually attend class with a player, how much more can he do? :lol:

Actually win a few games and this all is a non-issue. Hawkins has brought all this on himself with 16-33 including a 3-9 last year along with a failure to admit that he may be a part of the reason for the losing while throwing everyone else under the bus.

Win some games, stop making excuses, show some positive growth, and things like this become minor issues instead of major discussions.

He gets the big money to make sure that things like this either don't happen or don't matter enough to be noteworthy. He has failed and thus it is on him, completely on him.

 

[GoBuffs!!]

Are you serious? Sorry, but that is pretty pathetic. MB must cringe every time DH gets near a mic. So that is where the "winners must be cheating" suggestions came from, what a goof.

It was pretty classic when he was talking, you had Tad Boyle with his hand on his forhead (thinking what is this guy talking about), the Linda Lappe just confused, the Volleyball coach just pissed (Hawkins was supposed to be talking about Womans Volleyball), then I looked over to Bohn, who had a look on his face like, WTF, I have to clean your crap up again. Pretty classic moment, wish I had a picture. I dont know much about football or could tell you much about the dumb things Hawkins does on the field, but as a representative of CU he is horrible, and makes us look dumber every moment he opens his mouth

 

[Mick Ronson]

Actually win a few games and this all is a non-issue. Hawkins has brought all this on himself with 16-33 including a 3-9 last year along with a failure to admit that he may be a part of the reason for the losing while throwing everyone else under the bus.

Win some games, stop making excuses, show some positive growth, and things like this become minor issues instead of major discussions.

He gets the big money to make sure that things like this either don't happen or don't matter enough to be noteworthy. He has failed and thus it is on him, completely on him.

i agree. i believe Dan means well and i applaud his commitment to the kids getting their degrees.....but, he backed into this "doing things the right way" narrative as a compensation for not winning on Saturday. he came in talking about winning the NC, lighting up the Big XII....not a team 2.7 GPA and "his guys" who hold the old lady's hand as they cross Broadway. and when the secondary narrative (program is not cheating) starts to unravel with APR hits and losses of schollies.....what's left?

 

[BuffLuke80]

If he was somewhere besides CU, he would probably be gone already. However, even here, his act is wearing thin. It's win or hit the ****ing road at this level and this is his last chance. As far as Simmons, lol, that's all I can really do at this point. For somebody that had to do alot extra just to qualify in the first place, its disappointing to screw up now in his last year. I hope he gets that waiver.

 

[sackman]

He could not learn the play book.

What playbook? This years'? Last years'? What plays are they running, anyway? This is the worst freaking excuse I've ever heard. You have a guy with physical talent sitting on the bench because he couldn't learn the playbook?!??!?! You gotta be kidding me. The coaches don't know the freaking playbook, which is evidenced by the fact that they keep changing it every year. Football isn't that complicated. You put the best players on the field and design plays that they can run. Period. This garbage about not knowing the playbook is beyond absurd.

 

[MtnBuff]

What playbook? This years'? Last years'? What plays are they running, anyway? This is the worst freaking excuse I've ever heard. You have a guy with physical talent sitting on the bench because he couldn't learn the playbook?!??!?! You gotta be kidding me. The coaches don't know the freaking playbook, which is evidenced by the fact that they keep changing it every year. Football isn't that complicated. You put the best players on the field and design plays that they can run. Period. This garbage about not knowing the playbook is beyond absurd.

Hawkins might be able to blame it on his position coach who was not competent to make sure that the most talented guys actually knew the playbook. . . oops, that position coach is untouchable, he had a great excuse (err. . reason) why his players didn't know the playbook. Let's all get some orange slices and move on to another subject like our great kicking game.

 

[SBG]

If he was somewhere besides CU, he would probably be gone already. However, even here, his act is wearing thin. It's win or hit the ****ing road at this level and this is his last chance. As far as Simmons, lol, that's all I can really do at this point. For somebody that had to do alot extra just to qualify in the first place, its disappointing to screw up now in his last year. I hope he gets that waiver.

He has a RS year available if need be.

 

[BuffLuke80]

He has a RS year available if need be.

Thanks for the info, didnt know that. We really need him to step up and play this year though. All I heard was how good this guy was and he was almost non existant. I know not all of that is him but I hardly remember him doing anything.

 

[Dark Bohner]

It is this simple. A coach can't guarantee that 100% of his athletes will succeed on the field or in a class room. Simply impossible. But a coach can control how much effort is put into giving his players the best chance to succeed at both. Hawkins is failing at this, not because some players have left/flunked out. He is failing because a unusually HIGH number of players have left/flunked out. This was not the case under Barney, Weasel, and Mac. Check our fellow Pac bretheren who have similar academic standards and they aren't dealing with this kind of attrition either. Dan is simply not getting the job done, not because he isn't babysitting 100 kids, but because he ISN"T doing things the right way to help them succeed.