Top 5 or 10 NFL QB's All-Time...

[SINKRATZ]

I love Elway, but when he went head to head with Montana on the biggest stage in the Super Bowl he got positively slaughtered. Montana was the best ever.

 

[MtnBuff]

I love Elway, but when he went head to head with Montana on the biggest stage in the Super Bowl he got positively slaughtered. Montana was on a team that was one of best ever.

fify

Elway was on a team that was a sub-.500 team without him, Montana was on a team that would have been in the Super Bowl with any of about 10 QBs that year. Absolutely invalid basis for comparison.

Montana was a great winner but he couldn't carry John's jock. Put Elway on that SF team and you have a team that wins more SBs than Montana did. Put Montana on Elways Bronco teams under Reeves and you don't make a Super Bowl.

 

[SECOBuffsFan]

1. Elway - carried an average Denver team before the Shanahan years
2. Montana - system QB
3. Brady - clutch in big moments
4. P. Manning - smartest QB ever
5. Fouts - most unathletic QB who could dominate a game
6. Marino - quickest release ever
7. Bradshaw - run dominated team but won 4 Super Bowls
8. Staubach - unlucky to play Pittsburgh twice in Super Bowls
9. Tarketon - Until TD, Elway was headed his direction
10. Favre - had some great seasons but his hanging on too long hurt him

 

[tante]

I think we are really close to reaching a consensus.

 

[SINKRATZ]

fify

Elway was on a team that was a sub-.500 team without him, Montana was on a team that would have been in the Super Bowl with any of about 10 QBs that year. Absolutely invalid basis for comparison.

Montana was a great winner but he couldn't carry John's jock. Put Elway on that SF team and you have a team that wins more SBs than Montana did. Put Montana on Elways Bronco teams under Reeves and you don't make a Super Bowl.

The "great team" argument doesn't hold water for me - of course you need a great team to win a Super Bowl, but with a few exceptions (Dilfer, Rob Johnson) the QB is part of what makes them great. Jordan, Bird, Babe Ruth, Brady, Bradshaw, these guys were all on great teams and they're still all-time greats.

And there is no way you can tell me how a team would have done without Player X or if so-and-so was on the team instead, that's ridiculous...you're guessing, nothing more.

Elway is one of the best ever, no doubt, but he had a team good enough to win the AFC title but ended up on the wrong side of the most lopsided Super Bowl ever. To me the greatest QB ever doesn't lose 55-10 in the Super Bowl.

 

[DBT]

The "great team" argument doesn't hold water for me - of course you need a great team to win a Super Bowl, but with a few exceptions (Dilfer, Rob Johnson) the QB is part of what makes them great. Jordan, Bird, Babe Ruth, Brady, Bradshaw, these guys were all on great teams and they're still all-time greats.

And there is no way you can tell me how a team would have done without Player X or if so-and-so was on the team instead, that's ridiculous...you're guessing, nothing more.

Elway is one of the best ever, no doubt, but he had a team good enough to win the AFC title but ended up on the wrong side of the most lopsided Super Bowl ever. To me the greatest QB ever doesn't lose 55-10 in the Super Bowl.

But when a guy like Bradshaw, a career 50% passer, is considered one of the best ever, you have to think it is because Pittsburgh won Super Bowls. Right?

 

[SINKRATZ]

But when a guy like Bradshaw, a career 50% passer, is considered one of the best ever, you have to think it is because Pittsburgh won Super Bowls. Right?

One of the best sure, but not THE best. Elway's career completion percentage was only 56% so not a big leap from Bradshaw in that regard.

To me the greats play at their best when it matters most. Montana played better in the Super Bowl than anyone ever, period. Montana's stats:

Career: 63% completions, 1.96 TD/Int ratio, 92.3 QB rating.

but in his 4 Super Bowls: 68% completions, 11 TDs, 0 Int, 127.8 QB rating.

Elway's numbers aren't even close.

 

[Walter White]

One of the best sure, but not THE best. Elway's career completion percentage was only 56% so not a big leap from Bradshaw in that regard.

To me the greats play at their best when it matters most. Montana played better in the Super Bowl than anyone ever, period. Montana's stats:

Career: 63% completions, 1.96 TD/Int ratio, 92.3 QB rating.

but in his 4 Super Bowls: 68% completions, 11 TDs, 0 Int, 127.8 QB rating.

Elway's numbers aren't even close.

It's kind of hard to look at stats in different styles of offense. Elway's pass attempts, as a whole, probably had a much higher level of difficulty than Montana's WCO passes.

If I had to pick someone to lead me to victory in the last two minutes, I think I would take Elway. Of course, it's hard to go wrong with Montana, Brady, Manning, etc. I don't think Bradshaw would be on that list.

 

[Walter White]

Steve Young has to be on this list.

 

[DesertDawg526]

A little off-topic.

I grew up watching #10 Zorn to #80 Largent. Largent finished his receiving career with more catches, more yards and more TDs than any prior WR in history at the time...

Zorn will never be on a Top 10 QB list, but he was really fun to watch at times. Largent was simply amazing. They made (NFL.com's) Top 10 QB-WR combos ever. [video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8074c941/Top-Ten-Pass-Combos-Jim-Zorn-and-Steve-Largent[/video] That would be another interesting thread...

 

[DBT]

Steve Young has to be on this list.

He's on several top tens

 

[SINKRATZ]

Elway v. Montana by the numbers:

REGULAR SEASON:

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 63%
Elway - 57%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 1.92
Elway - 1.31

Yds / Game:
Montana - 236
Elway - 223

QB Rating:
Montana - 92.3
Elway - 79.9

PLAYOFFS

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 63%
Elway - 55%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 2.14
Elway - 1.29

Yds / Game:
Montana - 251
Elway - 226

QB Rating:
Montana - 95.6
Elway - 79.7

SUPER BOWLS

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 68%
Elway - 50%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 11 TDs, 0 Ints
Elway - 3 TDs, 8 Ints

Yds / Game:
Montana - 286
Elway - 226

QB Rating:
Montana - 127.8
Elway - 59.3

Record:
Montana - 4-0
Elway - 2-3

This isn't even close. Montana got better in the playoffs and the Super Bowl, Elway got worse.

 

[Walter White]

Elway v. Montana by the numbers:

REGULAR SEASON:

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 63%
Elway - 57%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 1.92
Elway - 1.31

Yds / Game:
Montana - 236
Elway - 223

QB Rating:
Montana - 92.3
Elway - 79.9

PLAYOFFS

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 63%
Elway - 55%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 2.14
Elway - 1.29

Yds / Game:
Montana - 251
Elway - 226

QB Rating:
Montana - 95.6
Elway - 79.7

SUPER BOWLS

Completion Percentage:
Montanta - 68%
Elway - 50%

TD / INT Ratio:
Montana - 11 TDs, 0 Ints
Elway - 3 TDs, 8 Ints

Yds / Game:
Montana - 286
Elway - 226

QB Rating:
Montana - 127.8
Elway - 59.3

Record:
Montana - 4-0
Elway - 2-3

This isn't even close. Montana got better in the playoffs and the Super Bowl, Elway got worse.

I don't think you can compare like that. Montana's coach was an innovative genius...on the cutting edge. Throw in Jerry Rice, etc.

I think the better way to look at it would be to say what would happen if the two would have switched teams. Maybe the same? I feel confident saying that if Elway would have been on the Niners he could have put up similar results to Montana.

 

[SINKRATZ]

I don't think you can compare like that. Montana's coach was an innovative genius...on the cutting edge. Throw in Jerry Rice, etc.

I think the better way to look at it would be to say what would happen if the two would have switched teams. Maybe the same? I feel confident saying that if Elway would have been on the Niners he could have put up similar results to Montana.

You're right, a hypothetical guessing game is probably the best way to evaluate QBs. Let's not let actual results that happened in the real world cloud our judgment here. :rolling_eyes:

 

[Walter White]

You're right, a hypothetical guessing game is probably the best way to evaluate QBs. Let's not let actual results that happened in the real world cloud our judgment here. :rolling_eyes:

I don't see the need for sarcasm. We're just having a discussion.

But yes, in my opinion, I think that is the best way to evaluate. Football is very far from being an individual sport. There are so many other factors involved. The types of offenses run by Denver and SF hugely impact stats for the QB.
Plus, you can't ignore the Jerry Rice factor.

I'm not sayign Elway is better, but I don't agree with the idea that Montana was better "and it's not even close". Certainly JM's stats were far superior, but to me, that's not the ultimate measure when there are so many other variables.

 

[Walter White]

A little off-topic.

I grew up watching #10 Zorn to #80 Largent. Largent finished his receiving career with more catches, more yards and more TDs than any prior WR in history at the time...

Zorn will never be on a Top 10 QB list, but he was really fun to watch at times. Largent was simply amazing. They made (NFL.com's) Top 10 QB-WR combos ever. [video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8074c941/Top-Ten-Pass-Combos-Jim-Zorn-and-Steve-Largent[/video] That would be another interesting thread...

+1

 

[SINKRATZ]

I don't see the need for sarcasm. We're just having a discussion.

But yes, in my opinion, I think that is the best way to evaluate. Football is very far from being an individual sport. There are so many other factors involved. The types of offenses run by Denver and SF hugely impact stats for the QB.
Plus, you can't ignore the Jerry Rice factor.

I'm not sayign Elway is better, but I don't agree with the idea that Montana was better "and it's not even close". Certainly JM's stats were far superior, but to me, that's not the ultimate measure when there are so many other variables.

There's always room for sarcasm, otherwise that rolling eyes emoticon would be useless. :thumbsup:

Look, Elway was one of the best ever without a doubt. To me it's not close between the two, but I realize others may see it differently. Every team is different, so trying to determine how someone would have performed on another team seems like an exercise in futility.

Both guys played with great players (Terrell Davis?) and as good as Jerry Rice was, he was a rookie in 1985 at which point Montana already had 2 Super Bowl titles.