UH seems to be the latest crybaby school from Texas begging the legislature for help

[MtnBuff]

Your east coast/west coast bias is showing through.

It would send a pretty strong signal to the nation, however, if the P12 did invite Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Rice to join the conference, though.

You can talk about a bias, and at no point did I say that Rice isn't an excellent academic institution. At the same time outside of Texas the name Rice doesn't move the needle.

There is simply no way that adding Rice to the PAC brings anything in terms of value to the PAC that they would cost in terms of revenue distribution. That doesn't mean they don't deserve recognition but they don't get it.

For the PAC, nobody in Texas makes sense financially for the PAC except for UT, aTm, and while not in Texas, Oklahoma is for practical purposes a Texas school. Unfortunately those all have other issues that make them unacceptable for inclusion.

 

[Deleted member 807]

You can talk about a bias, and at no point did I say that Rice isn't an excellent academic institution. At the same time outside of Texas the name Rice doesn't move the needle.

There is simply no way that adding Rice to the PAC brings anything in terms of value to the PAC that they would cost in terms of revenue distribution. That doesn't mean they don't deserve recognition but they don't get it.

For the PAC, nobody in Texas makes sense financially for the PAC except for UT, aTm, and while not in Texas, Oklahoma is for practical purposes a Texas school. Unfortunately those all have other issues that make them unacceptable for inclusion.

The value Rice would add is a prime recruiting connection to Houston, which would increase CU's pipeline to Houston, bolster CU's conference win record, and therefore add value that CU brings to the conference.
Go ahead and show me that the Pac12 network would be less valuable by adding Rice and the Houston market. I'd very much like to see your analysis on that.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Somehow the name Rice and Stanford don't come up in many conversations, excepting those started by those affiliated with Rice.

Athletically rice isn't P5. Academically Rice may be very good but they don't add to a conference image because people don't think about them in the same terms.

Never heard a kid say "I want to go to Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, or Rice."

Stanford and Rice will be in this sentence: Stanford and Rice have a home-home scheduled for 2016/2017. Arizona also scheduled a home-home with UH for 2017/2018.

 

[FlatironsBuff]

Anybody but Texas.

 

[sackman]

Anybody but Texas.

Wrong answer. The correct answer is: Nobody.

 

[FlatironsBuff]

Nobody but Texas? I think expansion will happen eventually. I'd take NU back before Texas. Rather stay put like you though.

 

[sackman]

Nobody but Texas? I think expansion will happen eventually. I'd take NU back before Texas. Rather stay put like you though.

No. The answer is "Nobody". There is nothing to suggest that expansion will happen eventually. Why will it? The ACC and SEC having 14 teams does not have any impact on us. The thought process that says it will happen eventually is flawed, IMO. There's no reason for it to happen at all.

 

[MtnBuff]

I'm not saying that Rice wouldn't add some eyes to the PAC12 network. What I am saying is that the number of eyes they would bring don't come even close to justifying giving them a share of the conference take.

Yes having Rice on our schedule would help with recruiting in Houston, so would scheduling a OOC series with them, with UH, etc.

This isn't a put down of Rice. It may be the best school in Texas, despite the objections of the Longhorns supporters.

It also isn't one of those schools that draws much attention outside of it's very limited based of connected fans. Frankly lots of people watch games involving a lot of schools that they don't have a direct connection to, Rice isn't one of those.

Lots of people may have a lot of reasons why their favorite non-P5 school should get a shot at a major conference. Fact is that other than it's a very good school that isn't recognized outside of it's area Rice offers no real compelling reason for the PAC12 or any other conference to invite it to join.

The $$$$$ don't justify it.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Wrong answer. The correct answer is: Nobody.

There are wrong answers and there are really wrong answers.
Keeping the P12 at 12 is fine. For now.

But. Big but. JLo or Serena Williams sized big Butt.

If you have to expand, there is a right way and a wrong way.

Texas is a natural location in which to expand. It's the second most populous state. DFW is the 4th biggest MSA and Houston is the 5th biggest MSA. The state is growing. It's second only to California in # of CU alumni. It is a hot bed for recruiting. It is just as close to CU as any other P12 destination.

When approaching Texas, it's admittedly a rat's nest of intrigue, politics, and bull ****. You have to proceed very carefully. The criteria for adding a Texas school should include:
1) Add's revenue to the conference through network television
2) Does not diminish academic stature of the conference, and must be an AAU member
3) Is not a proven conference killer that thinks so highly of themselves that they pursue preferential treatment, including the ability to dictate terms of entry that includes other universities or access to their own network.
4) Is not a religious based institution.
5) Is not located in the BFE part of texas, but actually in a city where lots of people live. Must be someplace where it is easy to get a direct flight and close to powerhouse high schools that regularly provide blue-chip recruits.
6) Is not already in the SEC

Now let's look at the potential targets:
University of Texas. Y for 1, 2, 4, 5, 6. A big N for 3. Texas will insist on dragging OU who will insist on dragging OSU. Then UT will also look for TTU or BU. Then they will impose Chip Brown cloak and dagger **** with B1G and B12 expansion. Drama, drama, drama.
Texas A&M. Y for 1, 2, 4. N for 3, 5, 6. Those weirdos are perfectly happy where there are. They have no desire to travel to P12 locations that are too far from Collie Station
Rice. Y for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1 is conditional. The others are absolute.
Baylor: Y for 6. No for all the others. **** Baylor.
Texas Tech: Y for 3 & 6. No for all the others.
U of Houston: Y for 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6. N for the others.
SMU: Y for 1, 5, & 6. No for the others
TCU: See SMU
North Texas, Sam Houston State, UT San Antonio, Texas State, UTEP, Incarnate Word, others: :lol: No.

Adding Rice & U of Houston as traveling partners would pull the rug out from the B12 and SEC. This move would deal a blow to UT's hegemony over H-Town. It would also pre-emptively take OSU and TT and Baylor out of the equation if the P12 ever did go after UT + OU, or UT + KU.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Why do we put ourselves through this over and over again? The Pac 12 doesn't need to expand. Doesn't want to expand. Isn't going to expand. OU and UT are the only schools that would deliver TV sets and the P12 wants absolutely nothing to do with them. Frankly, UT and OU don't want anything to do with the P12, either. Because as much as we don't think they fit into our culture, they feel just as strongly that they don't fit into ours. So even if it was something we wanted, it's not going to happen. Everybody else from SMU to Houston to SDSU just doesn't bring anything to the table. We don't need to be in the Central Time Zone. There are four other major conferences in the Central Time Zone that we'd be competing against. We control the westernmost two time zones (Alaska and Hawaii notwithstanding).

The problem with having these types of conversations is that it leads to all kinds of ridiculous speculation. We don't need more teams. We need to improve the strength of our current teams. The P12 is already a national powerhouse. No need to dilute the brand.

Let it go, people. It's not even an interesting conversation anymore.

Baylor and TCU would deliver some TV sets. The market, already divided by the B12 and the SEC would be divided yet again. If we could get OU, OSU, or TT in a 4 team deal it would be quite epic. I bet CSU gets in the B12 in that moment. UT will tell itself everything is fine over and over. :lol:

 

[Deleted member 807]

The $$$$$ don't justify it.

Circular logic. The existing $$$$$ don't justify it because, Rice has a horrible schedule agains teams nobody cares about. If Stanford were in Rice's conference, nobody would watch Stanford, either. Being in a P5 conference brings viewership that you can't replicate being in Conf USA or the MWC.

Also, as any investor will tell you, "Buy low, sell high." Buying into Rice would be much easier for buying into UT. Those geeks at Rice would be, like, "yeah, OK."

Contrast that to UT, who would start pounding their chests and making outrageous demands.

This is chess, not checkers. Buying into a Rice/UH traveling partnership would diminish UT's brand in Houston. It's just like A&M makes H-town "an SEC town", by bringing Rice and UH to the P12, it would certainly diminish the B12's and SEC's stranglehold on Houston. Stealing Houston from both of those conferences would be a coup.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

There are wrong answers and there are really wrong answers.
Keeping the P12 at 12 is fine. For now.

But. Big but. JLo or Serena Williams sized big Butt.

If you have to expand, there is a right way and a wrong way.

Texas is a natural location in which to expand. It's the second most populous state. DFW is the 4th biggest MSA and Houston is the 5th biggest MSA. The state is growing. It's second only to California in # of CU alumni. It is a hot bed for recruiting. It is just as close to CU as any other P12 destination.

When approaching Texas, it's admittedly a rat's nest of intrigue, politics, and bull ****. You have to proceed very carefully. The criteria for adding a Texas school should include:
1) Add's revenue to the conference through network television
2) Does not diminish academic stature of the conference, and must be an AAU member
3) Is not a proven conference killer that thinks so highly of themselves that they pursue preferential treatment, including the ability to dictate terms of entry that includes other universities or access to their own network.
4) Is not a religious based institution.
5) Is not located in the BFE part of texas, but actually in a city where lots of people live. Must be someplace where it is easy to get a direct flight and close to powerhouse high schools that regularly provide blue-chip recruits.
6) Is not already in the SEC

Now let's look at the potential targets:
University of Texas. Y for 1, 2, 4, 5, 6. A big N for 3. Texas will insist on dragging OU who will insist on dragging OSU. Then UT will also look for TTU or BU. Then they will impose Chip Brown cloak and dagger **** with B1G and B12 expansion. Drama, drama, drama.
Texas A&M. Y for 1, 2, 4. N for 3, 5, 6. Those weirdos are perfectly happy where there are. They have no desire to travel to P12 locations that are too far from Collie Station
Rice. Y for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 1 is conditional. The others are absolute.
Baylor: Y for 6. No for all the others. **** Baylor.
Texas Tech: Y for 3 & 6. No for all the others.
U of Houston: Y for 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6. N for the others.
SMU: Y for 1, 5, & 6. No for the others
TCU: See SMU
North Texas, Sam Houston State, UT San Antonio, Texas State, UTEP, Incarnate Word, others: :lol: No.

Adding Rice & U of Houston as traveling partners would pull the rug out from the B12 and SEC. This move would deal a blow to UT's hegemony over H-Town. It would also pre-emptively take OSU and TT and Baylor out of the equation if the P12 ever did go after UT + OU, or UT + KU.

All that is much more important, or really much less important, depending on the head count of alums and boosters in state which impacts your TV set count. The wedge school in that argument has to be Oklahoma which likely has the most alums and boosters after UT and A&M. If OU is willing to join the P12 we have to listen because of the additional power it will give the P12 Network. After they join its a matter of sucking up the next 1-3 schools that can steel the most eyes from UT and carve out the biggest chunk of Texas TVs.

 

[Deleted member 807]

All that is much more important, or really much less important, depending on the head count of alums and boosters in state which impacts your TV set count. The wedge school in that argument has to be Oklahoma which likely has the most alums and boosters after UT and A&M. If OU is willing to join the P12 we have to listen because of the additional power it will give the P12 Network. After they join its a matter of sucking up the next 1-3 schools that can steel the most eyes from UT and carve out the biggest chunk of Texas TVs.

We all know that OU and UT are attached at the hip. Been there, done that.
Since we can't get those two schools without their designated dingleberries…err…partners, then the next best strategy is to diminish the power and prestige of the B12.
While UT is a national brand now, just like any stock, the value goes up and down based upon actions taken by management. I'm all for UT's management drive the value of the Longhorn and Sooner brands downhill. Let 'em wallow in the land of TCU, Baylor, et. al. The B12 is nothing more than the land of mis-fit toys.

 

[patebuff]

**** Baylor. That is all

 

[Dark Bohner]

I'd like to hear more on possible expansion from everybody. We've never really touched on it.

 

[hokiehead]

I'd like to hear more on possible expansion from everybody. We've never really touched on it.

note the sarcasm. Conference re-alignment is one of my favorite college message board topics. at techsideline, we have a separate board dedicated to the topic, although it's more east coast biased than would be of interest here.

I do (un-sarcastically) find Allbuffs' member's attitudes towards conference realignment quite intriguing. very different set of constraints and priorities out here.

 

[Highlander]

I'd like to hear more on possible expansion from everybody. We've never really touched on it.

I think we should invite UT to join the Pac 12. They would be a highly valuable conference addition.

 

[Buffnik]

note the sarcasm. Conference re-alignment is one of my favorite college message board topics. at techsideline, we have a separate board dedicated to the topic, although it's more east coast biased than would be of interest here.

I do (un-sarcastically) find Allbuffs' member's attitudes towards conference realignment quite intriguing. very different set of constraints and priorities out here.

Re-alignment is probably different for CU. There's never been a credibility issue and CU's never been part of a conference in the modern era where the money was bad or winning a championship didn't position the team for heavy MNC game consideration or where there were weak bowl tie-ins.

Rather, we saw expansion of the Big 8 raise money and prestige in a way that destroyed old rivalries and hurt the CU program (pretty much all of the old Big 8 except for OSU and maybe OU). So a lot of us hear "more money!", "more viewers!", "more prestige!"... and we wonder whether what's being chased has as much value as forming deep rivalries and roots within a Pac-12 that is working really well. Stability of something good is probably more valued here after our shared experience.

 

[hokiehead]

Re-alignment is probably different for CU. There's never been a credibility issue and CU's never been part of a conference in the modern era where the money was bad or winning a championship didn't position the team for heavy MNC game consideration or where there were weak bowl tie-ins.

Rather, we saw expansion of the Big 8 raise money and prestige in a way that destroyed old rivalries and hurt the CU program (pretty much all of the old Big 8 except for OSU and maybe OU). So a lot of us hear "more money!", "more viewers!", "more prestige!"... and we wonder whether what's being chased has as much value as forming deep rivalries and roots within a Pac-12 that is working really well. Stability of something good is probably more valued here after our shared experience.

confused by this. all of the Big 8 stuck around for the initial Big XII, NU, Missou and KU made it to the same division as CU. OU and OSU were in the other division, but CU still played them > 50% of their years in the XII. What rivalries were destroyed by Big 8 expansion (vs. subsequent Big XII implosion)?

I think if I had been a Buff fan back in 1996, I'd miss the Big 8, if for no other reason than road trip games.

 

[BuffsNYC]

confused by this. all of the Big 8 stuck around for the initial Big XII, NU, Missou and KU made it to the same division as CU. OU and OSU were in the other division, but CU still played them > 50% of their years in the XII. What rivalries were destroyed by Big 8 expansion (vs. subsequent Big XII implosion)?

I think if I had been a Buff fan back in 1996, I'd miss the Big 8, if for no other reason than road trip games.

Nebraska would tell you that their rivalry with OU suffered.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

Just texted some of my buddies that played football for Rice 7 or 8 years ago that we were debating if Rice would be a good and worthy addition to the PAC-12.

The 4 responses:

"LOL"

"What a ****ing joke"

"I thought you CU grads were supposed to somewhat smart."

"lol, I just crapped myself laughing."


That is all.

 

[Buffnik]

Nebraska would tell you that their rivalry with OU suffered.

And that was the keynote game of the Big 8 almost every year.

 

[Buffnik]

Just texted some of my buddies that played football for Rice 7 or 8 years ago that we were debating if Rice would be a good and worthy addition to the PAC-12.

The 4 responses:

"LOL"

"What a ****ing joke"

"I thought you CU grads were supposed to somewhat smart."

"lol, I just crapped myself laughing."


That is all.

I didn't think anyone was taking the Rice suggestion seriously. It seems to me that Rice was only raised to be ridiculous within the theme of someone who see Pac-12 expansion as ridiculous. I was disappointed to see that it got as much run as it did.

 

[Deleted member 807]

I didn't think anyone was taking the Rice suggestion seriously. It seems to me that Rice was only raised to be ridiculous within the theme of someone who see Pac-12 expansion as ridiculous. I was disappointed to see that it got as much run as it did.

Pretty much on target, except for the disappoint part.

JR gets a medal for finding 4 Rice football players in which to engage in this farce.