Wasn't it two or three years ago that

[Duff Man]

Yeah, I admit, I do not really know what to expect next season. You guys are all focusing on the negatives to argue that next season will be a disaster. I try, at least, to look at some positives. Your biggest argument is that Hawkins can't coach. Maybe he can't, but how do you explain his success prior to coming here? That is what I cannot reconcile in my mind. I think a lot of it has to do with not getting the staff in place that he wanted and then, add to that, the constant changes in the staff since. So, at least in some part, I think there has been a continuity problem with the staff. Changing OC's, a different line coach every year, etc. This year, I see that stabilizing, hopefully, with Kiesau and Johnson coming back.

We had the same OC for Hawkins' first three years. 11th, 9th, 12th, 9th. Those are the scoring offense rankings in the conference under Hawkins. It can be attributed to any number of factors: lack of coaching continuity, youth, etc., but it also does not exactly inspire confidence.

Next, everyone loves to yell "NO MORE EXCUSES" when youth is brought up. And, to a degree, sure, even younger guys should be able to compete. But remember my post way back? Of Hawkin's recruiting classes, there are 3 seniors on the team right now and 9 juniors. All the rest are freshmen and sophomores. And you know what, I saw improvement in those guys toward the end of the year.

Again though, we were so bad the first part of the season, it would have been nearly impossible to NOT have improvement at the end of the year. 3-9 is 3-9.

I believe, and I know you consiracists believe Hawkins will do anthing to start Cody, but I believe that we have finally stabilized at QB with Hansen. I think the kid has a certain amount of star power and, now, experience to go with it. I think our O line IS as good as advertixed and will totally come together this year. Add to that a much improved receiving corps and I think our offense will be much better than last year. Also, I'm believing what I hear about Thornton at TE: That he will be a beast.

Not even going to get into the QB situation. As far as the OL, I am glad you believe the OL is good, but they have not shown much outside of a random few games the last couple years. Belief in them means little at this point. The WRs look very good. We shall see about Thornton. We had an experienced TE this season that was in the running for the Mackey Award and he was a non-factor at times.

Our LB's and DL will be improved and, I thought, started to show it against Okie State and 'braska. Jimmy Smith will be back to lead a good group of DBacks. Our kicking game, I hear Grossnickle is the real deal, will be much better.

The defensive line should be better. The LBs are inexperienced and depth is lacking. The secondary looks good, provided the safeties stay healthy. We shall see about the kicking game. DiLallo regressed each and every season under the current regime so who knows how well Grossnickle will be. Goodman is still probably going to be kicking, so that is still a bad situation. Special teams as a whole have regressed significantly under Hawkins. So while they may be better next season, there is a long way to go to reach respectability.

But the main thing is this. We were within 3 of WV going to the fourth quarter. We led Texas for 2 1/2 quarters. We easily could have/should have beaten both Okie St. and 'braska. We put more offense on 'braska than any team all year, inculding Texas. I also hear that the players are very pissed about last year and very focusued. I believe that there is a new resolve that has not been here before.

Close does not cut it. If you are going to play that card, we could have easily lost the Kansas and A&M games. The other talk is just gibberish. We hear it every offseason. Last offseason had the "best conditioning". We have had the "best practice" on several occasions. Determination and focus only goes so far.

You are free to think in the power of positive thinking, knock yourself out. But the fans have nothing to prove in this situation. The onus is on the coaching staff and players to prove everyone wrong.

 

[DBT]

I may have been one of the few people in Colorado who supported Dan O'Dowd and the Monforts when they went into their "build from within" strategy. The hate and disdain for those two was epic. I could see, though, that the talent level in the minor leagues was turning. I could see their plan coming together, including the Latin American academy. When they went to the WS, I saw everything come together. When 2008 happened, almost everyone said '07 was a fluke. I didn't believe that for one second. I thought '08 was the fluke and said so.

When Mac was building CU, most of you weren't around, but people were calling for his head after he went 1-10. But do you know what I saw? I saw CU getting the top Colorado kids and a lot of top kids from California. I saw the talent coming into place. I believed in Mac totally.

There is one thing that worries me about Hawkins though. One thing that I do not see happening as did with the Rox and Mac's Buffs. I'm very worried about his drop in recruiting talent this year. I bellieve a winning Hawkins can be a very effective recruiter. But a losing Hawkins can't. Now, there is enough talent in place now for one or two good years. But, if he does not turn recruiting around NEXT YEAR, he will not be able to sustain anything and will end up in trouble. That is my biggest worry with him.

 

[buffsyko]

No, people were saying 2008 would be the year and then 2009 and so on. Let's stop the mac comparisons. Hawk isn't a pimple on mac's ass. Year 5, win or leave.

 

[buffs04]

^^ Ditto. To say that fans have been projecting 2010 as 'the year' is revisionist history.

So is saying 'all the players we expected big things out of' (paraphrasing here) are still here.

Two years ago, Josh Smith and Darrell Scott were expected to be huge parts of this team at this point.

 

[calibuff81]

If we compete for the north and the big 12 championship this year, Hawkins will be coaching at Tennessee next year

 

[buffaholic]

^^
Two years ago, Josh Smith and Darrell Scott were expected to be huge parts of this team at this point.

I wish people would stop with this. They are one and the same. They are closely related. Perhaps they left because they are smarter than our coaches. Perhaps they left because they were miffed that the coaches refused to bow down to their unbelievable talents and expected them to work hard. I've heard they were huge problems to the morale of the team and it's good riddance. I've heard they were loved by all and their leaving would create a "mass transfer" situation. I really don't think we'll find out before next season and I really don't care.

The truth is that 2006 was the first year we had to recruit. Those guys are mostly Juniors next year. We've lost some guys, but no more than usual. We've also lost some key coaches along the way, possibly because of the state's moronic contract limits and funding, perhaps because Squawkins is a moron. I don't know.

I know the team is solidly behind the staff still. That tells me a lot.

 

[White_Rabbit]

When Mac was building CU, most of you weren't around, but people were calling for his head after he went 1-10. But do you know what I saw? I saw CU getting the top Colorado kids and a lot of top kids from California. I saw the talent coming into place. I believed in Mac totally.

We aren't getting the top Colorado kids let alone the top kids from California..

 

[calibuff81]

We aren't getting the top Colorado kids let alone the top kids from California..

True, we're battling with the likes of Colorado State, New Mexico, San Diego State and still having trouble out recruiting some of these lower tier schools for what 2 and 3 star players.

 

[White_Rabbit]

I don't mean to completely hate on DBT's argument, I do recall having a lot of optimism towards the 2010 season. Unfortunately I also remember having a lot of optimism for the 2009 season as it had a much easier schedule. A lot of that optimism had to do with the kinds of recruits Hawk was bringing in too, players like Scott, Katoa, Smith etc. Even some of the other highly rated guys have had trouble getting going, not that it's anyone's fault it's just been unfortunate.

Bringing in recruits like MTM, Miller, Tau, Givens, supplanted by Behrens, Daniels, Bahr, it was hard to imagine we'd still have issues on the OL on the scale that we did. Solder sliding over with his size and obvious agility since he was a TE, it just seemed so perfect.

Smith looked like a playmaker in the making, with solid guys like McKnight and others. Who knew we'd be down to McKnight and Espinoza as our starting WRs for a decent part of the 2009 season. QB the last few years has been Cody and that's about it, we don't know about Ballenger since they decided to jump Hansen up past him.

As far as Hawk at Boise goes, I don't know if it really looks like he was all that great there. Boise, since he left, has done nothing but improve. Peterson took what Hawk left to him and improved upon it in pretty much every way. Hawk may have had a pretty good winning percentage at Boise, but I don't think that necessarily means he was a great coach. His tenure at CU seems to contradict that notion.

Maybe DBT and buffaholic are right, the situation he walked into here was a freaking mess, Urban Meyer himself couldn't have done much better. All I know is, this year he had better get it right, or we'll never know how good or bad of a coach he really is. Hopefully, for the sake of all involved, he lives up to some expectations next year or he's going to be headed back to some smaller conference school and will get permanently slapped with the tag of being a coach that can't hang in big boy football.

 

[leftybuff]

The truth is that 2006 was the first year we had to recruit. Those guys are mostly Juniors next year. We've lost some guys, but no more than usual. We've also lost some key coaches along the way, possibly because of the state's moronic contract limits and funding, perhaps because Squawkins is a moron. I don't know.

I know the team is solidly behind the staff still. That tells me a lot.

Really? Since this staff recruited them that would seem to be a given. You will always have some attrition, and I would say it is slightly higher with DH at the helm, but if saying the guys he recruited and gave scholly's to still like him is the best sign you can find, I'd say that isn't much....

 

[GoBuffs08]

I may have been one of the few people in Colorado who supported Dan O'Dowd and the Monforts when they went into their "build from within" strategy. The hate and disdain for those two was epic. I could see, though, that the talent level in the minor leagues was turning. I could see their plan coming together, including the Latin American academy. When they went to the WS, I saw everything come together. When 2008 happened, almost everyone said '07 was a fluke. I didn't believe that for one second. I thought '08 was the fluke and said so.

When Mac was building CU, most of you weren't around, but people were calling for his head after he went 1-10. But do you know what I saw? I saw CU getting the top Colorado kids and a lot of top kids from California. I saw the talent coming into place. I believed in Mac totally.

There is one thing that worries me about Hawkins though. One thing that I do not see happening as did with the Rox and Mac's Buffs. I'm very worried about his drop in recruiting talent this year. I bellieve a winning Hawkins can be a very effective recruiter. But a losing Hawkins can't. Now, there is enough talent in place now for one or two good years. But, if he does not turn recruiting around NEXT YEAR, he will not be able to sustain anything and will end up in trouble. That is my biggest worry with him.

Regarding the Rockies and Monforts-The Monforts are some of the worst owners is baseball. Spending just enough to keep people comming to the park. All the talent that they developed in the minors will be gone within 2-3 more years. They already got rid of the best player that was due a payday in Holliday, and as other contracts are up they will be shipped out.

Regarding MAC, there was no call for Mac's head after the 1-10 season. Everyone knew that he was replacing the now 2nd worse coach in CU history and it was going to take time. Even in his 1-10 season his kids played with more intensity than the best Hawkins CU team.

Regarding recruiting, Hawkins has not been great. I don't understand why people think that he has been.

According to Scout:

2010 Rank 65, 11 in Big12
2009 Rank 57, 10 in Big12
2008, Rank 27, 5 in Big12 -Two 5* recruits from that class are no longer here in DS and Katoa.
2007 Rank 35, 6 in Big12- According to Scout that class had 27 commits

Hawkins and his coaches are not setting the world on fire when it comes to recruiting. Hawkins has either failed to land enough playmakers on both sides of the ball since he arrived or failed to properly coach the talent that he has. He has also consistantly undersigned, deciding to give out scholarships to walk-on players that have no business playing in Div 1 football.

 

[sackman]

I know the team is solidly behind the staff still. That tells me a lot.

Really? We just had a SENIOR transfer off the team. And that tells you that the team is solidly behind the staff? Really? Actions speak much louder than words. Publicly, kids will always say they're committed to the program and the coaches. But when you start to see guys like Sumler transferring, that tells me an entirely different story.

 

[Denver_sc]

most on this site were predicting 2010 would be the season we compete for the North and Big XII titles? That seems to be what I remember. Amazing how now everyone says we suck and will be at the bottom of the North.

Yep, I was. And I'm still on the CU Train! 14 and No! Nat'l Champs, b****es!

 

[Mick Ronson]

"we led Texas after 2 1/2 quarters".

i stopped reading then. there are about a thousand-million other things i could say about how Hawkins has never lived up to it, players leaving the program, top recruits etc., the "Boise Playbook", finishing in the 100's in NCAA O and D every year and last in the Big XII, scoring O and D...etc.

 

[Junction]

Regarding the Rockies and Monforts-The Monforts are some of the worst owners is baseball. Spending just enough to keep people comming to the park. All the talent that they developed in the minors will be gone within 2-3 more years. They already got rid of the best player that was due a payday in Holliday, and as other contracts are up they will be shipped out..

Feel free to ignore the fact that Holliday ended up signing a contract with the Cardinals for the same annual salary the Rockies offered him, and that nobody else in baseball lined up to pay him that kind of money through the age of 38 when he did become a free agent. Ignore the fact that they've already given guys like Tulo, Iannetta, Corpass and Jimenez new contracts. So much easier to just repeat the stereotypes...

Also, please list all the other great players the Rockies have allowed to walk away rather than pay them. We've been over it a million times here, but there are a LOT more examples of them screwing up by giving big contracts than by refusing to pay people. They may not have the Yankme's payroll, but who does?

Back to the topic. What people were seeing 2 or 3 years ago was the building blocks for a talented team. A few of those building blocks are gone, but even worse is that we saw last year that this coaching staff can't win even with the ones who remain. The talent was there last year. The talent is there again, allowing for some holes. But why should we all suddenly start believing this staff is going to start producing a winner? History tells us otherwise...

 

[DBT]

Here is the deal. There are very strong arguments on both sides of this. All we can really do is wait and see. I just get a kick out of being a contrarian and stirring the pot a bit. Admit it, you guys love it. I honestly understand everyone's points of view and see the validity in your argumets. I sure as hell wouldn't put a big bet on my side of this. I am not so sure that next year will turn around to the point that I'd bet on my side. In the same context, I don't understand how you guys can be 100% certain that Hawkins simply cannot coach or that we don't have the talent. I think that a point can be argued that Hawkins can coach (he's been successful in the past) and that youth has hurt (last year we were mostly freshmen and sophomores), etc. Unlike you guys, I guess, I just kind of enjoy the ride. I think the uncertainty is kind of interesting and fun.

And you know what, I WANT to see CU blow away all the critics. That is what is really fun to me. Just like the Rockies. The most fun of the whole thing was seeing the national / local media and negative fans eat crow.

 

[somebody]

Thats what I don't get. Posters can start threads, ad nauseum, about how horrible "Squawkins" is, how bad the administration is, how horrible we will be next year, blah, blah, blah. But if anyone tries to post a thread every once in a while that is a bit positive, well, look out!

It's not being positive that gets threads responses like these, it's the complete lack of reality in your posts. Staying with teams for a while in a game means NOTHING when you've demonstrated your ability in games like Toledo. Getting a little better at the end means NOTHING when you're still losing all of those games. Sure I have hope for this year because we have a lot of juniors for a change - but not because of the coaching staff.

Here is the deal. There are very strong arguments on both sides of this. All we can really do is wait and see. I just get a kick out of being a contrarian and stirring the pot a bit. Admit it, you guys love it. I honestly understand everyone's points of view and see the validity in your argumets. I sure as hell wouldn't put a big bet on my side of this. I am not so sure that next year will turn around to the point that I'd bet on my side. In the same context, I don't understand how you guys can be 100% certain that Hawkins simply cannot coach or that we don't have the talent. I think that a point can be argued that Hawkins can coach (he's been successful in the past) and that youth has hurt (last year we were mostly freshmen and sophomores), etc. Unlike you guys, I guess, I just kind of enjoy the ride. I think the uncertainty is kind of interesting and fun.

And you know what, I WANT to see CU blow away all the critics. That is what is really fun to me. Just like the Rockies. The most fun of the whole thing was seeing the national / local media and negative fans eat crow.

You're alone enjoying the Hawkins depressing express...

 

[leftybuff]

It's not being positive that gets threads responses like these, it's the complete lack of reality in your posts. Staying with teams for a while in a game means NOTHING when you've demonstrated your ability in games like Toledo. Getting a little better at the end means NOTHING when you're still losing all of those games. Sure I have hope for this year because we have a lot of juniors for a change - but not because of the coaching staff.



You're alone enjoying the Hawkins depressing express...

Easy man, can't you see DBT's back meds just kicked in?

 

[DBT]

Easy man, can't you see DBT's back meds just kicked in?

:lol: You are so right on the money! I passed out half way through that post. No kidding. I barely made it home and the first thing I did was pop two Vicadins. I started writing that post and 45 minutes later, after comiing to, finished. :lol: But I really do get a kick out of all of this. It is what makes sports fun. The worst thing is beginning a sentence, passing out for 45 minutes, coming to, and trying to remember what the **** you were going to say in that sentence.

 

[NW Buff]

And you know what, I WANT to see CU blow away all the critics. That is what is really fun to me. Just like the Rockies. The most fun of the whole thing was seeing the national / local media and negative fans eat crow.

I'd love for CU and this staff to prove all of the critics wrong, but, at some point, I feel I need to be realistic. This staff hasn't shown that they have the ability to recruit, develop, prepare or manage a Big 12 football team. I have no problem with your optimism but I get tired of you trying to tell the rest of us that we're wrong for feeling differently (or trying to convince us we should feel the same). As many have said, this staff gets no recognition until they prove it on the field. I'm not talking about MNC or even a Big 12 title. Hawkins has done a good job of lowering my expectations. A team that comes out prepared to play against CSU in the first game of the year would be a nice start.

 

[DBT]

I'd love for CU and this staff to prove all of the critics wrong, but, at some point, I feel I need to be realistic. This staff hasn't shown that they have the ability to recruit, develop, prepare or manage a Big 12 football team. I have no problem with your optimism but I get tired of you trying to tell the rest of us that we're wrong for feeling differently (or trying to convince us we should feel the same). As many have said, this staff gets no recognition until they prove it on the field. I'm not talking about MNC or even a Big 12 title. Hawkins has done a good job of lowering my expectations. A team that comes out prepared to play against CSU in the first game of the year would be a nice start.

If you would read my most, on the contrary, I did not say your side was wrong. I said that a good argument can be made for both sides. I said that your side may very well be right. My point was that we just don't know and won't know until the pudding is finished. My point is that it is fun to argue both sides. All I can do to support my side is lay out the "facts." But my "facts" are no better than yours. Hell, probably less than.

 

[NW Buff]

If you would read my most, on the contrary, I did not say your side was wrong. I said that a good argument can be made for both sides. I said that your side may very well be right. My point was that we just don't know and won't know until the pudding is finished. My point is that it is fun to argue both sides. All I can do to support my side is lay out the "facts." But my "facts" are no better than yours. Hell, probably less than.

I did read the post, along with the initial post in the thread and I do get what you are doing. The problem I have with your facts is that they are the same ones I heard before last season. I remember going into fall practices how everyone was saying the previous year was a fluke with all of the injuries and how much better we'd be. Then I watched the season unfold and I'm tired of arguing the sides of this one. Win and prove it is all that's left. It's going to be a long off season :smile:

 

[somebody]

:lol: You are so right on the money! I passed out half way through that post. No kidding. I barely made it home and the first thing I did was pop two Vicadins. I started writing that post and 45 minutes later, after comiing to, finished. :lol: But I really do get a kick out of all of this. It is what makes sports fun. The worst thing is beginning a sentence, passing out for 45 minutes, coming to, and trying to remember what the **** you were going to say in that sentence.

this is why I love to read your posts, dbt, you think losing is fun - that is so enjoyable to hear

 

[buffsyko]

If you would read my most, on the contrary, I did not say your side was wrong. I said that a good argument can be made for both sides. I said that your side may very well be right. My point was that we just don't know and won't know until the pudding is finished. My point is that it is fun to argue both sides. All I can do to support my side is lay out the "facts." But my "facts" are no better than yours. Hell, probably less than.

You hvae no argument. CU is 16-33, 4 straight losing seasons and his record vs 1st year big 12 coaches is atrocious. Funny, cu beat wyoming 24-0 yet, their first year head coach got them to a bowl game nad the WON. Yet, you still say hawk is a good coach. You have proof of that since he came to colorado? We've been hearing the youth excuse for 4 years now. There are no more excuses left. It's simple win or get the eff out of here.

Now, if cu somehow has a winning season this year, I will be the first to say congrats and tell you you were right.

 

[Darian3Hagan]

Here is the deal. There are very strong arguments on both sides of this. All we can really do is wait and see.

How fitting is that?

 

[buffs04]

I miss the "current year +2 we will be top 10" predictions. Unfortunately, they have disappeared, as even the most stout Hawkins supporters can not deny that the 2009 and 2010 recruiting classes are bad and that a healthy majority of the projected impact players from the 2008 class have transferred, hit someone with a rock, gotten hurt, severely underperformed, or are currently backup at the least important position on a football team.

 

[DBT]

this is why I love to read your posts, dbt, you think losing is fun - that is so enjoyable to hear

I hate losing, are you kidding? I don't get a kick out of losing. I enjoy arguing about sports. I will say this, as I've gotten older, sports isn't "life or death" to me anymore. When I was young, like most on this board, it was life or death. But even now I sometimes lay in bed awake all night after a loss. I did that after the csu loss this year. Just lay there in quiet misery.

 

[DBT]

You hvae no argument. CU is 16-33, 4 straight losing seasons and his record vs 1st year big 12 coaches is atrocious. Funny, cu beat wyoming 24-0 yet, their first year head coach got them to a bowl game nad the WON. Yet, you still say hawk is a good coach. You have proof of that since he came to colorado? We've been hearing the youth excuse for 4 years now. There are no more excuses left. It's simple win or get the eff out of here.

Now, if cu somehow has a winning season this year, I will be the first to say congrats and tell you you were right.

I didn't say "Hawk is a good coach." I said that I cannot understand how he could have gone from being successful before to, all of a sudden, being a bad coach.

 

[buffaholic]

I don't agree that 2009 class was a bad class. If you are going to only look at Rivals or Scout rather than what you see with your own eyes on the field, perhaps.

NFL drafts are less than perfect at evaluating 22 year old talent - colleges evaluating 18 year olds have a much higher margin of error.

2009, we saw the following true-freshmen play:
3 DL, including West who was a complete unknown to the recruiting services
1 WR (Will Jeff) who was unknown to the world
Excellent practice reports from unknowns such as Thornton (TE), Olatoye (CB), Orms (S), Webb (LB).

If these kids are good players and future solid Buff contributors as they appear to be, and some of the higher rated players such as Harris work out, this could actually turn out to be the best class in a long time at CU. We will know by mid 2011 or 2012.

Just saying the margin for error for believing Rivals or Scout is ridiculously high. Recruiting isn't the problem here. We have enough players now to get this thing going. If the program is perceived as stable and improving, 2011 class will look better on paper and so forth from there. It is 100% about on-the-field results and coaching the players we have right now. Recruiting is the last thing to worry about imo. Unfortunately, between now and Spring Ball, there's not much else to hang on to here....

 

[Buff fanatic]

You hvae no argument. CU is 16-33, 4 straight losing seasons and his record vs 1st year big 12 coaches is atrocious. Funny, cu beat wyoming 24-0 yet, their first year head coach got them to a bowl game nad the WON. Yet, you still say hawk is a good coach. You have proof of that since he came to colorado? We've been hearing the youth excuse for 4 years now. There are no more excuses left. It's simple win or get the eff out of here.

Now, if cu somehow has a winning season this year, I will be the first to say congrats and tell you you were right.

So, Hawk would be a better coach if he'd have gotten beaten by Wyoming????