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WR position & work ethic

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by buffaholic, Jan 1, 2010.

  1. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    For those who have a Scout subscription, there's a very telling article where Kendrick Celestine comes clean in telling all that he didn't work hard the first time at CU and didn't bother to learn the plays.....

    It's widely known that this was Josh Smith's MO here at CU as well. The reality is that these two guys were the only ATHLETIC guys at WR when they got here and both were given significant playing time as true freshmen, because they flat out had some speed and ability that the bevy of walkons at WR didn't possess.

    I don't think it takes a leap to question why Simmons wasn't seeing the field this year either. It's been painful, but there is no doubt that there is now plenty of competition at this position and Celestine, Simmons and Clemons plus the two redshirts (Darden, Ussery) will keep this from being an issue again.
     
  2. SanDiegoBuff

    SanDiegoBuff Club Member Club Member

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    The coaches are the ones who failed here, the coaches let this become an issue and the coaches are the only ones who can keep this from being an issue again.

    This just amplifies the call that the coaching staff either isn't or can't do it's job. If they can't figure out how to teach and motivate their players, they shouldn't be calling themselves coaches.
     
  3. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    OK, I'll bite. Simmons didn't learn the play book and didn't show that it mattered much. He probably figured he was so much better than everyone else he didn't have to work hard. What are the coaches supposed to do? They sat his ass and, I'm sure, told him why they sat his ass. What you do to motivate him? I'm sure the coaching staff would love some good ideas. These guys are getting scholarships to play college football. Its up to them to put in the work required. The coaches did everything they could think of to motivate Darrel Scott. He just took his ball and went home. A lot of these kids feel entitiled and, until they learn that they are not, there isn't much more the staff can do. Maybe between now and next season Andre will reflect and recommit himself. Sometimes thats what it takes. Interspection.
     
  4. Junction

    Junction Moderator Club Member

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    Do you remember what Simmons did in order to get into CU last summer? Unmotivated isn't exactly the first word that comes to mind.

    Do we know he didn't learn the playbook, or is that coming from the earlier post that concluded that because Smith didn't learn the playbook and Celestine didn't learn the playbook, and they were athletic and Simmons is athletic, that it naturally followed that Simmons didn't learn the playbook either. Because apparently that's just how athletic receivers roll....
     
  5. SBG

    SBG Formerly known as EFNMB Club Member Junta Member

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    Bush league. Do you know Andre? The guy worked his ass off to get to campus, got here for fall ball, but wasn't cleared to play until a week or so before CSU. Given the amount of work that he had to do to get in I bet he wasn't in tip top shape. What do the coaches do? They play him in the CSU game and he gets a pass for 42 yards and we rarely see him again all season. It didn't matter that SM was Cody's only read. The guy should have never set his foot on the field this year given all of the circumstances. Our coaches failed yet you blame him. Get real. They did not handle the situation properly and they lacked the admins help to get him on the practice field earlier. Timing is a HUGE deal when working with the QB. It's why SM got the ball so often from Cody and Simas from Hansen. Bad decision to even play him. I vehemently dislike the personnel decisions. They should have had the foresight to make the right call given that they have been coaching for 10+ years.
     
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  6. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    Do you know this or are you using the speculation here that you so often bash? It is amazing how quickly you go after the players. Except not really.
     
  7. buffwings

    buffwings Club Member Club Member

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    :popcorn: I dont buy the Andre not having a good work ethic bit, the guy busted his ass to get to CU. The coach's simply "suck ass."
     
  8. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    Maybe hawk's ho-hum, soft as marshmellow approach to college football and wr coaching has something to do with this....
     
  9. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    Hawk could kill 30 people and you'd find a way to blame the victims.
     
  10. Ruckus

    Ruckus Peep my words. Club Member

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    You get mad at people for bashing Hawkins, then proceed to bash a player?
     
  11. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    Players do deserve some of the blame. Coaches too. I don't see how this needs to be an either/or debate.

    Regarding Simmons, I find it hard to believe that the coaches didn't play our fastest receiver who they hyped the hell out of simply because they wanted to piss off Allbuffs members. I'm sure Simmons didn't do everything exactly right (and the coaches didn't do a good job of getting through to him).

    Hopefully a new WR coach and a fully offseason in the program will result in Simmons realizing his potential next season. He could be a weapon for us.
     
  12. Ruckus

    Ruckus Peep my words. Club Member

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    And I find it hard to believe that not playing our fastest receiver is a better option than playing him, whether he knew all the plays or not.
     
  13. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    I find it hard to believe after the atrocious 4 years under this regime that anyone could think the coaches aren't doing something wrong. The reason they get so much heat is, they are the ones who bragged ALL SUMMER about simmons and scott and then game 1, scott gets 1 carry and simmons hardly plays all year. The coaches need to quit blowing smoke up everyones butts and quit making every player out to be the next heisman and then as usual, they don't see the field. Nothing with this regime is believable or worth listening to.
     
  14. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Simmons didn't see increased playing time because he either was hurt, not working hard enough, or not as talented as advertised. You may not agree with the coaches definition of "working hard enough" but since we are not at practice, we really have no idea. I think it's a pretty fair guess that Kiesau and Hawkins knew the offense was completely neutralized by having no athletic ability at WR the first half of the season. My dog figured that one out.

    I think it's widely understood that Josh Smith didn't work hard and felt entitled to playing time due to athletic ability and the lack of competition at the position.
    Celestine has now admitted to the same to Scout.com.
    Simmons?

    Hawkins made comments alluding to this and was bbq'd by the folks who hate the whole lunch pale & hart hat deal.

    I 100% believe that if the best players don't have to work as hard to earn playing time, then the whole team ends up crappy in the long run. I don't believe for a moment that our coaches feel we will win more games in the short run with our slow walkons playing WR. They may in fact be morons, but they're not that stupid.

    Either way, every WR must prove himself going forward as there is plenty of talent there right now for the first time in a long time.
     
  15. buffsyko

    buffsyko Club Member Club Member

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    We have plenty of talent and speed at the position so there should be no excuses. I agree with some of your post but in the end, nothing that has gone on in the first 4 years leads most to think anything will change with this staff. We'll see and know early on where year 5 is headed.
     
  16. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    y'all better watch the personal attacks v. players. some of these posts are right on the edge. show some restraint, please. good, bad, or indifferent, they all wear the black and gold. none of them are paid. all pay a price. there are ways to be critical without being nasty.
     
  17. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    Sorry for the "bash" above. I was over the top. However, I do not believe Andre ever had a good grasp of the playbook and I believe thats why he didn't play that much. I expect that to totally change next year. I also give him tons of credit for busting his ass to make the team. I also suspect that after all he went through to get here and to finally have it happen that he very easily could have had a huge mental "let down." It is almost impossible to continue to push yourself like he did and maintain the intensity. But I do get a little tired of the staff getting bashed for not playing him as if he was the best receiver on the team and only the fans know it. As a matter of fact, there seems to be this big belief among fans that the staff did not play their best players. I can't say one way or the other and am not really going to argue the point, but I just cannot imagine a coaching staff not playing who they felt gave them the best chance to win. Maybe the problem with that assumption on my part is that I still have at least some belief that Hawkins is not a horrible coach. If I thought he was a total idiot, like most of you, then, yeah, I can see how you would beliieve he didn't play the best guys due to complete incompetence. I just don't buy it.

    But I deserve to get lambasted for taking a shot at Andre. It was stupid and against what I usually try to stand for.
     
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  18. dio

    dio Admin Club Member Junta Member

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    Nik is probably right here... a little bit of both.
     
  19. Liver

    Liver modded mod Club Member Junta Member

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    well, ok.

    but, understand, many of us are not convinced that the staff is playing the "best" guys. "best" is a moving target, of course. when you lose at historically unprecedented rates like these guys, you are going to get second-guessed in your personnel decisions. plus, coaches are adults and highly compensated. getting criticized is part of the gig (altho nasty personal attacks are unwarranted against them too).

    you'd be hard pressed to find many avid followers of the program who think that the "best decisions" on personnel were made these last few seasons at qb, at wr, at rb, at center, etc. i could list the questionable decisions (and there are many, many) for you, but i think you know them too. there have been a lot of head-scratchers these last few years.
     
  20. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    We've all heard that Andre worked his butt off to get into CU and I have a lot of respect for that. It's possible that when he got here, he was also confronted with big-time college classes and had to apply himself to those WHILE learning the playbook. He didn't have all summer to study it. I have no idea how long it takes to learn, but I imagine it's easier in June/July/August when a player is taking just one class, to find time for the playbook. In September, he may have been split with a full load of classes, too.

    Let's hope this conversation is unneccessary next season. I want to see some big players makin da big plays on the field and not second guessing coaches and players. Win guys, just win, and we will say you are all smart and talented and have a strategy we can buy into.
     
  21. Hugegroove

    Hugegroove Club Member Club Member

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    Everyone on this site knows how hard Simmons worked just to get here. We can sit and second guess all day long reasons for him not sniffing the field. I say, give it a rest and wait until spring practices, the spring game, and the fall practices are complete. Trying to rush to judgement over what Kendrick said should in no way be indicitive of how Simmons handled himself. Yeah, the coaches obviously have some issues and should have the ways & means to motivate these guys.

    DBT -
    I've made the same mistake as you, and been called out for it. IMO, The coaches & staff are always fair game, but I've learned to leave the boys alone.
     
  22. MtnBuff

    MtnBuff Not allowed in Barzil 2 Club Member

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    The staff can talk all they want or choose not to say anything and we can speculate as much as we want to speculate as well. The simple fact is that since practices are closed none of us knows what is happening on the practice field and we certainly don't know what is happening in the meeting rooms. Which players are mentally ready ready to play thus becomes a point for speculation that is only highlighted by what we know or think we know about players abilities.

    What we do know with certainty is the results that are occuring on the field in the games. We know that guys who are great effort and attitude guys like Espy, Ebner and Sumler are playing when the game is on the line and guys who are physically more talented like Simmons and Scott are buried on the bench. We know that certain things the coaches have told us are BS like DS was not playing becasue he was hurt since he was out there returning KOs which is much more physically demanding and violent that running from scrimmage.

    What we also know without a doubt is that this team is losing about twice as many games as it is winning under the current coaching regime. They have had four full seasons and only managed to win three games last year. Overall recruiting quality is down, we were close to the worst in major college football for penalties, our third and long conversion percentage is miserable, we can't sustain drives, our special teams are very ineffective and the littany of other on field problems could go on for pages.

    Hawkins may have a philosophy that worked for him at Boise. He has shown that he intends to play the guys who work the hardest and try to coach them up skillwise. This may have worked for him in the WAC where most of the athletes you are playing against have one deficiency or another, resulting in them being recruited by WAC teams instead of BCS conference schools. Unfortunately at Colorado you are not going to out-effort your opponents. The other Big XII schools have top quality athletes on the field. When you play teams OOC that are not major conference teams they see that game as an opportunity to build credibility and you are going to get maximum effort.

    Bottom line is that Hawk and staff aren't doing their job, the results on the scoreboard prove it. Do any of you honestly think that Adrian Petterson was the hardest working RB on the OU team, that Maclin was the hardest working WR on Mizzou, that Linus Sweed was the hardest working WR on Texas, I could go on and on. A few of these guys may have been but what is not a question is if they were the most talented players. Winning coaches at this level get their best athletes on the field and figure out how to both use their athletic talent and how to motivate those players to perform. Hawk has is completely backwards and as a result we are completely backwards, 3-8 instead of 8-3.
     
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  23. buffalo30

    buffalo30 Active Member

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    MtnBuff is right on with his last paragraph.
    I look at 16-33 under one head coach. The 4 straight losing seasons under one head coach is the first time this has happened in over 100 years of Colorado football. There is one problem with Colorado football. Any discussion about "if this" or "if that" is meaningless for me to get into. I'll read what others may have to say and I'm glad all of you still have the interest to do so, but I don't have the energy to discuss or put forth any opinions regarding the "what ifs" of Colorado football until the one major problem is taken care of in one way or the other.
    I wish a Healthy and Happy New Year to everyone.
     
  24. White_Rabbit

    White_Rabbit Club Member Club Member

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    If Simmons didn't have time to learn the playbook before the season, an understandable issue, then it's on the coaches for not redshirting him. At the very least he could have had a few packages to learn each and every week so by the end of the season he could be seeing more playing time, not less playing time. As far as him not working hard, you have to be kidding me. Just because Celestine felt a sense of entitlement doesn't mean that automatically translates to all gifted athletes. You guys crack me up how quickly you pile blame on the players and avoid any blame going towards a bunch of coaches who have failed at an alarming rate.

    Like nik said, it's probably on both the players and the coaches, but acting like, well the coaches told him to learn it and didn't play him, what else can they do! It's their job to get through to players and get them to do the hard things, like learning the playbook.
     
  25. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I am sure Simmons could have done a little more to get on the field as a WR. But the biggest issue I have with the coaching staff regarding Simmons is that he should have been returning punts early on. They eventually got him on the field a couple times in the role, but it took several games in which Espinoza did absolutely nothing in that role. I can live with Espinoza getting quite a bit of playing time at the start of the season at WR, but no one is going to convince me that Espinoza was the only option we had for most of the season at PR.
     
  26. jjbuffs13

    jjbuffs13 Well-Known Member

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    From what I understood Simmons had a class on Tuesday and Thursday in the evening. That means, he would get Sunday off (since its the day after a game), Monday was a film day. That means, Wednesday was his only day of 'live' practice. Im not making this as an excuse, but that may have lead to his lack of playtime.
     
  27. AlferdJasper

    AlferdJasper Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that DS DID need knee surgery. Why he was saying he was healthy when Hawkins said "dinged up" is anybody's guess, but DS was injured at some point. So I can't say I know "for certain" anything about player health. I know DS WANTED to be healthy, maybe wanted to play through a minor injury, and I assume Hawkins wanted to play his best guys. The reality of why DS didn't play is somewhere in between those two desires.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2010
  28. BlackNGold

    BlackNGold Club Member Club Member

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    I call BS on this....Simmons busted his butt...you are totally full of crap on this one. GO ahead and bash someone when you KNOW none of the facts....YOU ARE WRONG on this one.
     
  29. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    You didn't read my last post.
     
  30. Ruckus

    Ruckus Peep my words. Club Member

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    I'm way ahead of you, bitch. :smile2:
     

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