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Big Ten Expansion Scenario (realistic or wishful thinking?)

The B1G Ultimate HAM move...

  • Realistic

  • Wishful Thinking


Results are only viewable after voting.

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
Past expansion of the B1G says that they care about a few things: market expansion, academic prestige and football prestige. Of the 3, football prestige seems to be the least important to them as long as the resources and cultural fit seem to be in place. Although they definitely care about it.

Putting the ACC options to the side since I think that the B1G is having some buyer's remorse over the geographic isolation of USC/UCLA and want to balance things up now (they'll go after the ACC later), below is where the potential expansion targets compare with the last 4 additions (Maryland, Rutgers, UCLA, USC). Only AAU members are listed because the B1G has never added a non-AAU and never will unless it's Notre Dame.

The 3 basic things I'm looking at are: 1. MSA (metropolitan statistical area) to determine whether it delivers media and likely alums/donors/applicants; 2. ARWU (Academic Ranking of World Universities) to determine whether the school is going to enhance academic prestige and drive collaborations and grants as well as attract more international applicants for undergrad and grad studies (Top 100 are schools which add prestige); and, 3. Football prestige, for which I'm using All-Time FBS Wins since the B1G is so much about its history.

Other things modify this, of course. We could look at recruiting grounds. National following. Number of alumni from candidate in the existing B1G footprint. Prestige from other sports. National championships, national awards and historic games or rivalries with other B1G members. There's a lot of stuff that can adjust this, but I think these have been strong drivers (and it's a lot easier to find comparative data).

Newest B1G MembersMetro SizeARWU RankFBS Wins Rank
Maryland20 (Baltimore) / 6 (Washington DC)5040
Rutgers1101-15042
UCLA21361
USC25311

Here are the candidates from the Pac-12 that would help with the geographic isolation issue:

P12 Candidate UniversitiesMetro SizeARWU RankFBS Wins Rank
Arizona53101-15060
Cal13536
Colorado195130
Oregon25301-40034
Stanford13241
Utah46101-15032
Washington151718

I think Washington jumps out as the clear #1 candidate here. Metro is almost the same as Cal/Stanford but they don't split it and also have a lot more fan support within that metro. Academically, they're only ranked behind Cal & Stanford and would be among the very top tier in the B1G. In football, the most wins of everyone to go along with the most PAC conference championships after USC, Rose Bowls, tons of All-Americans and a couple claimed national championships.

I would also think it would be hard for the B1G to pass on the academic prestige of Cal and Stanford. To put it in perspective of how elite this is, Stanford (2), Cal (5), UCLA (13) and Washington (17) are the only universities in the Top 25 that play FBS football (Michigan comes in next at #28). But they're less than ideal in other ways. Splits a metro that really only needs 1 team in the market, low fan support, etc. But I just can't imagine not picking these schools given the thought process of university presidents. There's enough there on other criteria to make them a no-brainer due to the academic prestige.

Colorado looks like the next best to me. Best remaining market. Best remaining academic prestige. Best remaining football history (wins, plus all the hardware). Also brings a ratings-driving rivalry with current B1G member Nebraska along with a bit of history with the "Miracle at Michigan" game. CU draws a lot of its students from & has a high percentage of its alumni residing in the Chicagoland metro. It's a damn good fit. CU is actually a close equivalent to Maryland.

... but Nike. Seriously. The Nike Duck marketing and PR machine has had them all over everything for years. They buy their way into sports bars, local radio gamecasts, every ESPN and other network or CFB / CBB sponsor promo, etc. There's also been a lot of success between the lines the past decades, so it's not empty marketing - just overblown. Academics are barely there. Program prestige is barely there. Home market's not there. But the national following and brand they've built along with having the heated traditional rivalry with Washington makes them a lock, imo.

After that, we've got Utah and Arizona. Both have a ton going for them, but they're among the lowest on academics (still absolutely top schools in the world, but it's a tough room). They also have the worst home markets. UA can sort of claim the state and that massive population. Similarly, Utah can claim a fast-growing state and has some reach into smaller near-in metros from border states which don't have a P5 team. But if we grant that, we also should acknowledge that each school has the #2 following in its own home state and in the largest metro/most loyal demographic behind ASU and BYU, respectively.

Bottom Line: If the B1G expands now I think they go to 20 and CU gets shafted. However, I think that the smarter play would be to choose CU and either Cal or Stanford if they're looking to maximize markets and revenue. If the expansion goes to 22, CU is going to be in.

But I'm calling my shot that we see the ULTIMATE BIG TEN HAM MOVE: expand to 24 teams with all 7 of the Pac-12 AAUs plus Notre Dame.
 
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Absolute horse**** pie in the sky hopefest. Neither the B1G nor the SEC want Colorado. We don't bring that many TVs, we are geographically isolated, and our fans are all old and dying.

So my wife's family dog once caught a baby rabbit coming out the end of a pvc landscape drain pipe for their lake cabin. Every single time for the rest of his life, when they'd get to the cabin he would run to the end of that pipe hoping to catch another bunny.

Every.

Single.

Time.

You go for a hike and come back, go run and check the pipe. Go fishing for the day, go run and check the pipe. Go off for the winter and come back in the spring, go run and check the pipe.

I mean, from his perspective, it worked once, so why not keep trying?


Anyway, you're really reminding me of that dog for some reason.
 
So my wife's family dog once caught a baby rabbit coming out the end of a pvc landscape drain pipe for their lake cabin. Every single time for the rest of his life, when they'd get to the cabin he would run to the end of that pipe hoping to catch another bunny.

Every.

Single.

Time.

You go for a hike and come back, go run and check the pipe. Go fishing for the day, go run and check the pipe. Go off for the winter and come back in the spring, go run and check the pipe.

I mean, from his perspective, it worked once, so why not keep trying?


Anyway, you're really reminding me of that dog for some reason.
What if it worked twice?
 
@Buffnik, I love ya man, but the one thing you are, consistently, is too damn optimistic. I mean I'm sure it's a great thing day to day, but I also recall you posting about how MacIntyre was "building something special" in the years after the one bright spot, and more recently how you had "been too hard on" Dorrell.

Market doesn't matter like it did when Maryland and Rutgers was added, so that doesn't help as much. Football prestige sucks. Academic prestige is good, not great; we'd be at least 4th in line from the PAC in that regard. And the bigger and richer the conference is, that's just all the more that any new addition had to bring in to keep everyone whole.

Do I hope your scenario comes true? Absolutely. But I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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say there's 8 spots and you're the B1G

factor in the ACC schools

who would they want in a perfect world?

1. ND for sure right? No real downside here other than they aren't a public school and no AAU, but still good academics with top tier football history and national brand
2/3. UNC and UW? A nice mix of academics, location, and decently good football, UW more than UNC because of the football and to annoy hokie
4. UVA? I googled and didn't see them on the ARWU ranking list, but academics are good, sports not so much, big state, kinda close to Baltimore/Maryland so maybe a downside there
5. Cal/Furd? Both? Bay area plus academics, football not so great although Stanford was recently kinda good, but probably not so much in the future. They'd probably just want one, but then you're missing out on the other, which for non-football reasons, might be a mistake
6/7/8. Oregon/Clemson/FSU/Miami? Good at football, not so good at the other stuff. FSU is in Florida, but at the wrong part of the state, Oregon and South Carolina are similar sized small states split with another P5 school. Miami is in a good metro, but private idk how much of that is a fit. That said, Miami vs Washington games would be hype levels of travel

Maybe that last group is where a CU sneaks in? Maybe Clemson/FSU/Miami are overvalued for football and B1G is less interested in them than the SEC due to non-football reasons. I think that's CU's hope

Duke for the UNC basketball rivalry that maybe doesn't matter much? Private school and generally terrible at football, but great academics

Louisville? Not sure they'd be appealing on academics, but good at other stuff and score oddly well on TV rankings?

Pitt did make that ARWU list near the bottom, I previously didn't even consider them, but I guess toss them in there. B1G already has Penn St so maybe no more Pennsylvanias needed, but it's a massive state so
 
All Cal/Stanford have going for them is academics, is that going to be enough? How many games did Stanford have this year with less than 1,000 people in the stands? Yes the B1G prez's want the academics, it's a top 3 market but it's hard to see the networks ponying up the funds for games no one watches and teams that no one in that market cares about. If the B1G expands it's going to be 20 teams, math doesn't work all that well with 18. UW and The Ducks are in if they expand but I thin Cu and Utah have a better chance than we might think.
 
All Cal/Stanford have going for them is academics, is that going to be enough? How many games did Stanford have this year with less than 1,000 people in the stands? Yes the B1G prez's want the academics, it's a top 3 market but it's hard to see the networks ponying up the funds for games no one watches and teams that no one in that market cares about. If the B1G expands it's going to be 20 teams, math doesn't work all that well with 18. UW and The Ducks are in if they expand but I thin Cu and Utah have a better chance than we might think.
Market sizes, regional populations mean absolutely nothing in looking at Stanford/Cal. Neither is considered "the" local school by the people in the area. Each has a hard time selling tickets, even when good and neither delivers TV ratings, especially Cal.

Of the remaining PAC schools Washington is easily #1. They have a large and fast growing market, they have the fan demographics that the networks want. They draw solid ratings and sell seats. Seattle is also a city that has a lot of corporate headquarters that dictate a lot of advertising and sponsorship dollars.

#2 is a tough question with the balance between CU and one of the Arizona schools, most likely U of A. Each is located in a relatively large market that is growing. CU has a big advantage in the demographics with Colorado having a younger, more educated population. CU historically has produced better TV numbers, Slight advantage to CU. CU provides a Mountain Time Zone team broadening scheduling options as they can adjust for Central or Pacific time zone teams. Would also be an issue that only one Arizona school is likely to be taken. The politics may make a league hesitant to get involved.

Oregon is a huge wildcard. Don't have history, don't have a great market, don't add prestige. Do have Nike $$$$$.

Utah is behind CU in most areas but their advantages are similar.

I would put all of these ahead of Cal or Stanford.
 
I like polls!
pole swinging GIF by 1st Look
 
With the money that could be consolidated, you have to look at CFP like the NFL. Many of these college only programs or towns are dead ends even if you pump more money into them.

Cal and Stanford are one offs that match up with the 49ers, so both do not need to go. I think Stanford gets the nod

Washington is a solid choice and mirrors the Seahawks

Arizona only gets one, and that is UofA

CU is ahead of Utah

Oregon is a toughy cause if not for Nike and Knight money, it is a nothingburger, but money buys you in.

CU is sitting at 4/5/6, but big metro and a mirror of the Broncos is high value long term and worth investing in
 
With the money that could be consolidated, you have to look at CFP like the NFL. Many of these college only programs or towns are dead ends even if you pump more money into them.

Cal and Stanford are one offs that match up with the 49ers, so both do not need to go. I think Stanford gets the nod

Washington is a solid choice and mirrors the Seahawks

Arizona only gets one, and that is UofA

CU is ahead of Utah

Oregon is a toughy cause if not for Nike and Knight money, it is a nothingburger, but money buys you in.

CU is sitting at 4/5/6, but big metro and a mirror of the Broncos is high value long term and worth investing in
Honestly, I have no idea where you are going with this NFL matchup angle.
 
I am sure not knowledgeable or sophisticated on the subject, but:

CP is leading a move to combine social media and college football, in ways that may produce a ton of new fans and interests.
IMO a 'smart' league would want CP as 1 of it's coaches. He could be a huge story and draw. If CU somehow starts strong, the media will be all over the Buffs and their games.
He's a non-stats factor
 
I am sure not knowledgeable or sophisticated on the subject, but:

CP is leading a move to combine social media and college football, in ways that may produce a ton of new fans and interests.
IMO a 'smart' league would want CP as 1 of it's coaches. He could be a huge story and draw. If CU somehow starts strong, the media will be all over the Buffs and their games.
He's a non-stats factor
A coach - who could leave at any time and even in a best case scenario might be around for a decade - isn't going to impact any conference's evaluation of a member that it would be bringing in (and paying) for forever.
 
Absolute horse**** pie in the sky hopefest. Neither the B1G nor the SEC want Colorado. We don't bring that many TVs, we are geographically isolated, and our fans are all old and dying.

What
 
I think it’s a pipe dream but one thing about CU is that it’s not bound to CSU. UCLA got away with a Cal tax but I’m not sure UW or Oregon can do that.
 
I think it’s a pipe dream but one thing about CU is that it’s not bound to CSU. UCLA got away with a Cal tax but I’m not sure UW or Oregon can do that.
Mandel touched on this recently and said that the issue with Cal and UCLA was because they are part of the same UC system and Cal regents technically control everything. WSU/UW and UO/OSU are completely separate entities and would require state legislative action to block the flagship from leaving, which is unlikely to happen
 
Mandel touched on this recently and said that the issue with Cal and UCLA was because they are part of the same UC system and Cal regents technically control everything. WSU/UW and UO/OSU are completely separate entities and would require state legislative action to block the flagship from leaving, which is unlikely to happen
I think you underestimate politics in Salem and Olympia.
 
I know nothing about them so that’s possible.
I could see UW getting a pass. UW and WSU are far apart in both distance and culture but it’d be interesting in Oregon. The schools are close to each other, the rivalry is a big deal around here and “a house divided” is a common bumper sticker. That and our legislature can get derailed by just about anything
 
I could see UW getting a pass. UW and WSU are far apart in both distance and culture but it’d be interesting in Oregon. The schools are close to each other, the rivalry is a big deal around here and “a house divided” is a common bumper sticker. That and our legislature can get derailed by just about anything
One can only hope that Oregon gets left behind
 
Wait I thought McChesney said we’re in. 😂

Can we ever get there? Geography is on our side. The issue with Oregon and Washington is they’re f’ing far. No one wants to travel out there.

Stanford and Cal, yes I can see them joining so USC and UCLA can be reunited. The California schools will collude to make it happen. Politics will win at the end of the day. And their fans won’t give 2 s**** about it to make it extra annoying.

Colorado? I don’t know. On a map, we make the most sense of any Pac-12 school or any school in general. Academically, we’re similar to all of their midwestern AAU schools. Football wise, we have Deion. Market size is juicy. But… who would advocate for us?

Hate to say it, we would need their sh****** member and our arch nemisis to push for it, the bug eaters.

When we left the B12, we didn’t know that rivalries will drive realignment. Not joining and aligning as a pair was so monumentally stupid in hindsight. The blood isn’t so bad that we won’t schedule them. But is it good enough to back Colorado joining them? I don’t think so and I have a feeling that’s a big reason why it won’t happen.
 
I don't see it happening. That said, I feel like the buffs made a huge deal about alumni in the pac footprint. I would have to believe the Denver area houses a large percentage of big 10 alumni. You can't go to any brewery with seeing Hawkeye, sparty or Michigan gear. However, I am doubtful that moves the needle.
 
Alums located in the potential expansion market is actually a pretty big deal. Denver is a very good B1G market - surprisingly, better than some cities that are in B1G country.


"Meanwhile, 10 Big Ten schools have a Tier 3 connection with Denver and 8 of the league’s colleges have a Tier 3 connection with Seattle."
I’ve gone back and forth on this. On one hand, I see value in keeping the 3 biggest non-Californian hubs together, Denver, Seattle and Phoenix. I put Portland as a 4th but it’s far behind those three.

On the other hand, Arizona as far as UA and ASU go aren’t B1G material. UA is basically KU but with a desert landscape.

If we remove UA/ASU, and they love the B12 for some reason, we’re left with:

Oregon
Washington
Colorado
Utah
Stanford
Cal

While they make the next logical adds for USC, there’s a palpable dislike of Stanford and Cal for political reasons (will they embrace NIL), brand reasons and fan base reasons.

If we remove them, this 4 pack actually looks appealing for the B1G:

Oregon
Washington
Colorado
Utah

It’s got the west coast + the mountain without the bad politics.

This may be the ramblings of a realignment mad man but it makes sense as of this morning.
 
If the B1G and the SEC want to prevent the top of the PAC, ACC and B12 from forming its own league that would compete directly with them, they should start to consider significant expansion right now. Just pull off the bandaid and go straight to the endgame. There’s 32-40 schools that if they consolidated into a competing college athletics league, would carry a lot of weight and command a lot of attention. It would be cheaper to consolidate half those schools now and let the others die on the vine. Where CU falls into that scenario is anybody’s guess.
 
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