Discussion in 'University of Colorado Recruiting Archive' started by 62-36, Jul 6, 2011.
Maybe. Can't really fault the talent evaluations at Boise in recent years. Let's hope that this also means that Hawkins didn't leave the cupboard bare (that he just couldn't coach or lead, but he didn't fail in that talent department).
I think Boise State has always focused primarily in Calif, and they were always going after the under-the-radar guys.
The last couple years (and moving from WAC to MWC) has boosted them up to competing with the mid-to-lower Pac12 teams. I think we are in it vs. ASU, UofA, Utah, Boise State, Oregon State in many cases.
It seems like weve offered most kids after Boise has.. No shame in that though. Boise St is on par with a mid level Pac12 team.
I'd be careful there, Boise beat what was the Big12s top team (Oklahoma), Oregon, Utah, and TCU. And also if the BCS was not so concerned about rating and protecting their major market teams Bosie could have easily added one more big name to their record. As much as it pains me to give credit to that sorry blue turf that spawned the greasy hair of Hawk, but they would come in to the Pac-12 and be an instant contender and that even two three years ago with USC and the Ducks at full force.
Petersen is an outright stud and genius recruiter. Athlon ranks their DL #1 in the nation going into this season, and their OL #5. Thier defense ranked #2 in total defense, and their offense ranked #2. They develop players better than anyone.Living in Boise, I've become fond of this team. The fans, not so much. But the team is a well oiled azz kicking machine.
Boise wouldn't be able to play a real schedule every week instantly.
Creatini, you've outdone yourself with that avatar.
I agree. Now for some reason I find his posts slightly more intelligent and easier to read.
I agree, with their traditional, under-the-radar approach. But they are seriously upgrading and this may not be true in the future.
Sorry, but BSU couldn't compete week in and week out with out teams. An upset win here and there against the elite teams in the conference would happen, but they do not have the depth to handle it. Winning BCS games that don't really matter too much is irrelevant. They are a good team because they can redshirt their OL/DL every year and have them sit for a while until it's time. This is not because they have insanely huge depth, but because they don't have to worry about injuries and academic casualties. When everyone has to play a full game week in and week out then we can talk about BSU again.
BSU would be a joke in a big boy conference over a 10 year span.
With that said, Moore is a stud, but only at the collegiate level.
While Boise clearly can evaluate talent, it is still sad to see how far we have fallen. Remember when we first got D2 and everyone kept asking him if he was going to be able to recruit B12 caliber players? Ugh.
He has a post? I thought the avatar just popped up.
So is that what you named it?
Well, we will see. This is the same thing everyone said about Utah. Except we get to see how Utah can do with a full schedule. Not only Utah fans, but many of the other people looking at the Pac12S seem to think Utah will be a contender for the P12S this year. It will be interesting to see how it falls out. BS will not get that oppotunity for some time as from what I understand they are little better than a junior college as far as academics. So they will not be in a mjor conference anytime soon. Seems like they need alot of upgrades. And for talented kids (athletically) but lazy in the classroom, BS is a good way to go. Lots of wins against lower level competition, lots of mentions on Sportcenter, not as much work to do in the classroom. That is a draw for those kids.
I disagree with them not being able to compete right away.. They have as much depth as any PAC-12 team minus maybe USC and Oregon, and they whooped Oregon twice. Once when they were PAC-10 champs, holding them to 8 points when they hung 50 on almost every PAC-10 squad.I've watched almost every game if their's the last 2 years.. They're scary. Proof that star ratings are worthless, they have 5 star coaches. They had the highest APR in the west over the last 4 years, with a perfect 1000 last year, so I don't think these kids are lazy in the classroom. Boise St's problem is lack of graduate programs, which hurts their academic ranking. I attended Western Washington University for 2 years, then transferred to Colorado. All undergrad classes are simple. My wife graduated from Cal, and now is getting her masters in Social Work at Boise St. She says the quality of education is about the same, because at Cal you get taught by student teachers the majority of the time because their so called famous faculty is off doing research and teaching grad students.
Speaking of Utah and the talent level. Let's look at CU as a comparison. In the last 5 classes which represent their current roster, their classes have come in with a #32, #37, #44 and 2 classes outside the top 50. No one here is going to say that recruiting under Hawkins was anywhere close to CU's normal level. We had a #15, #32, #48 and 2 classes outside the top 50. Obviously, this doesn't account for transfers in or out, guys who didn't make it into school, guys who were signed after NSD, guys who were lost to injury, or guys who went on a mission and haven't arrived yet. But it's a good baseline for comparison.
Here's what the Pac-12 South looked like for the past 5 years (best classes to worst):
UA: 37, 39, 44, 45, >50
ASU: 21, 30, 35, 45, >50
CU: 15, 32, 48, >50, >50
UCLA: 8, 13, 14, 40, 45
USC: 1, 2, 4, 4, 8
UU: 32, 37, 44, >50, >50
For comparison, here are Boise State's rankings:
BSU: >50, >50, >50, >50, >50
No way in hell that BSU has the depth of talent to deal with the grind of playing a 9-game conference schedule in a BCS conference.
And, fwiw, CU might be the 4th most talented team in the South this year (USC, UCLA, ASU, CU, UA, UU). USC's ineligible to win it and has issues from the scholarship reductions, UCLA is a mess, and ASU is a team that could be great or implode. There's opportunity here to surprise some folks.
No doubt BSU has some good wins, but those are one-offs. Playing week after week (literally) bigger, stronger, faster guys has got to take its toll.
This is very interesting. While you took this as meaning that BSU doesn't have the same talent as the teams in the PAC12 South, I took this as meaning that that they're better at digging out talent that isn't universally recognized. If I was U of A, I would trade rosters with BSU in a heartbeat.
And this furthers my thinking that it's very possible that a big reason Colorado and Boise State are going after a lot of the same recruits is that Embree understands that with the shape we're in right now, we're not going to be able to compete with the big-name programs, and thus are better off following in Boise State's footprints, perhaps at least until the program's been built back up.
Nik, I know you say this is only a baseline and doesn't account for injuries, transfers, etc, etc, but that's not exactly fair, IMHO. If you go back and look at the highly ranked classes for CU (2007 & 2008), the top of those classes (by *'s) is completely gone. I'm sure there has been some attrition at the top of other schools' classes but I can't believe it is similar to what happened at CU.
fify, I haven't, but I bet if you went down their rosters, UA has bigger faster stronger athletes - it's a coaching and conference difference that is reflected in the records.
And I disagree to some extent on the common recruits angle, too - I think Boise St has their sights on kids with higher grades than they did previously.
As a former coach myself, I'll be the first to speak on the importance of coaching and development, but measurements and times might make the athlete, but they don't necessarily make the player. Recruiting is also getting the right kind of guys; the right make-up, the right attitude... Guys who will improve, who are self-motivators, who make the guys around them better.
I hate to bring up the obvious comparison, but Darrell Scott vs. Rodney Stewart comes to mind. Would you trade Stewart for Scott? I wouldn't, and I don't think it has anything to do with how they were treated here in Colorado as opposed to how they responded to their environment.
That's assuming star rankings have value.. Which it's clear they don't, and they are purely for entertainment purposes only. If they had value, teams like Texas A&M, Tennessee, etc.. wouldn't suck like they do. We wouldnt have turned into a bad team either..Utah has always had higher ranked recruiting classes than Boise St, and have played each other twice in the last 5 years. The combined score is 62-6, with Boise St blowing out Utah both times. Boise St also played PAC-10 top dog Oregon twice in 3 seasons, destroying Oregon both times.Like I said, Athlon has Boise St's defensive line ranked #1 in the nation. Of their starting 4, they have 3 two stars and 1 three star. That front four led the nation in sacks and came in at #2 in total defense. No starter had more than 8.5 sacks, and their #3 DE was 2nd on the team in sacks and 1st in TFL's. Their top 8 DL, especially their top 4 DT's, are as good as any I watched last year.Boise St takes 2 stars and turns them into 5 stars. Kellen Moore's only other offer was Eastern Washington, and now he's a future college football hall of famed. He's 38-2 as a starter and will become the NCAA all time leader in wins by a QB. LT Nate Potter only had offers from Utah and Idaho, now he's the #1 LT going into next years draft. Last year they had the best WR duo in the nation, both of whom were drafted.I cannot stand their fans, but I've watched this team as close as I have Colorado. I stand by my claim that Boise St is as deep as 10 of the 12 PAC-12 teams. Regardless of star rankings.. I think Scout/Rivals panders to BCS schools anyways, because they have more active message boards. It's a business meant for entertainment. No way in hell can anyone accurately rank 2,000 kids off of highlight tapes.
Ugh.. Don't know why it always jumbles my paragraphs into one big one.
Star rankings have been directly correlated to the likelihood of a player making an all-conference team or being drafted in the NFL. Further, class rankings have been directly correlated to the performance of the team 4 years later.
They matter. Not the be all and end all. There are always exceptions to the rule. But there is quite a bit to it as far as a general guide to how good a player or team is.
So you don't trust stars but you trust Athlon? Ok. Leading in sacks against their schedule surprises exactly who? It's been said 100s of times, but I'll say it again, easier to get up for a single big game than facing a vastly tougher conference schedule week after week. They have a great coach, though, it would be interesting to see how they'd stack up against the PAC or even the B12.
So what you are saying is-- good high stars combined with good coaches means MNC contention. High stars with ****** coches means underacheiving teams. Medium or low stars with great coaches means lots of wins (Boise). And medium star classes with ****** coaches means no bowl games (Colorado).
Well said. And I agree. So the classes Embree is bringing in are medium in the short season, and may be medium with the first full season. But if they can coach then we will start getting wins and then they can attract higher stars since then everyone will know they can coach well on this level. And CU is not a school right now that can attract alot of 4 and 5 star kids just by name alone, like A&M and Tennessee.
fify - btw, I agree with you, but that's not what Buffy said, which IMHO is just wrong: "That's assuming star rankings have value.. Which it's clear they don't... I stand by my claim that Boise St is as deep as 10 of the 12 PAC-12 teams."
Boise gets some 3* talent in a 2* (at best) conference. So they roll all but a couple teams each year. Well-coached, have had continuity of systems, and they've built a culture of winning. But if you traded their roster for Washington State's, Wazzou would get worse.
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