Colorado & Utah To The Pac10 ? hmm ?

[Hugegroove]

I realize the joining the PAC 10 has been a hot topic here for the last several years but ultimately, $$$ will be the deciding factor if it happens at all. To come up with a list that features all the pros & cons of staying in the B12 or jumping ship to the PAC 10 might be a daunting task to accomplish. The overall revenues and expenditures that would come from doing this would be far more speculative than actual. IMO, even without knowing all of the potential scenarios, it seems like a good idea to at least look into it.

 

[LaserDeathHawk]

F the Pac-10. And all this "we should leave the Big 12 because we can't compete here" BS has got to stop. Getting your ass kicked doesn't mean you quit fighting.

 

[Buffsfan09]

I agree that it comes down to $$$ but if we can't make it work in the Big 12, how does anyone think we will make it work in the PAC-10? The opportunity to make $$$ exists today, we just need to commit to our athletics, agree that football and basketball are important and support them, and put products on the field/court that draw int rest, the rest will follow. Until we make that commitment, it doesn't matter what conference we are in. I would argue that moving to the PAC-10 would decrease our exposure...especially in the east where people just naturally don't respect the PAC-10. I live in Atlanta and they are already talking about the Georgia Colorado game...not beacuse they are playing Colorado..but beacuse they are playing a Big 12 team....SEC vs. Big 12 is a draw...not so much SEC vs. PAC-10.

 

[tante]

I think the PAC:10 is a step down from the Big 12 in both football but a much bigger gap in basketball, but that could be made up with the addition of an 11th and 12th team.

 

[Junction]

Rabbit's question is valid - if there are more alum's in socal, will it mean an increase in donations? Perhaps, and one the AD is prolly already chewing on as we speak. I have a feeling the travel distance monster will rear its ugly head again. The socal teams have a fairly short jaunt to nocal and to AZ; the nocal teams to socal and Oregano. UO & OSU are in reasonable proximity to the Wash schools; Utah and Colorado would have pretty healthy trips 4-5 times a year. Another question - are the Utes and their fanbase ready to give up the rivalry with BYU? Yeah, they could play OOC (like us and the lammies), but after being in the same conference, would it have the same meaning? Don't know.

For Utah, the trips to Oregon wouldn't really be that much worse than tripping to SDSU or TCU. And assuming CU and UU went into a north division with the Oregon and Washington schools, the trips to the southern schools wouldn't be an every year thing. 2 trips in a season, at most. For the northern schools, they would add a trip to Boulder or Salt Lake, but probably eliminate one to Arizona or SoCal. CU would definitely have the biggest travel issue. For most of the current Pac-10 schools I think losing out on some of the annual rivalries (U$C primarily) will be a bigger stumbling block.

 

[ScottyBuff]

maybe its me, but i think the "better roadtrips for fans" argument is a bit shallow in the big picture. i also think its vastly overstated how going to Tucson or Eugene is going to be a longterm (note longterm) draw for people who don't currently make roadies. once the novelty wears off.

on balance, i don't have much preference either way with the Big XII/Pac 10 though i can't think of a time in CU sport in my lifetime when we could be less attractive to the Pac.

i'd be willing to put some credence to the rumors if this wasn't 18millionth off-season this topic has appeared. also, if Irv Brown is the source.....eh? i respect Irv and what he's done for college sports and CU but if he's putting this on the radio from a reliable source either its his job to leak it or he's alienated himself from the "source" by outing the info. neither seem real likely to me. but, i've been wrong before.

Mick, I agree that the "roadtrips for fans" would be a novelty that would wear off after a few years. The alumni population on the west coast however seems to be a valid strength for joining the Pac Ten. Not saying that it is a primary reason, just another bullet in the gun.

My question for you is on the academic side. Since Presidents/Chancellors are the ones that make the decisions on these things, what academic advantages does the Pac Ten have over the Big 12? Would our research funding and peer-groups for professors be significantly improved?

 

[Daaah]

For Utah, the trips to Oregon wouldn't really be that much worse than tripping to SDSU or TCU. And assuming CU and UU went into a north division with the Oregon and Washington schools, the trips to the southern schools wouldn't be an every year thing. 2 trips in a season, at most. For the northern schools, they would add a trip to Boulder or Salt Lake, but probably eliminate one to Arizona or SoCal. CU would definitely have the biggest travel issue. For most of the current Pac-10 schools I think losing out on some of the annual rivalries (U$C primarily) will be a bigger stumbling block.

We'd also lose out on the Nebraska game, which has become kinda big for our program. I wonder if NU would be willing to schedule an annual game. Probably not considering their tendency to schedule complete patsies in the OOC portion of their schedule. But in any case, I'd drop the CSU game for an annual NU game.

 

[Daaah]

Mick, I agree that the "roadtrips for fans" would be a novelty that would wear off after a few years. The alumni population on the west coast however seems to be a valid strength for joining the Pac Ten. Not saying that it is a primary reason, just another bullet in the gun.

The 'novelty' might indeed wear off, but if you are looking to combine a fall vacation with a football game it'd be a lot easier to convince the family to go to Seattle, LA, SLC, or SF than pretty much anywhere other than maybe Austin in the B12.

 

[Junction]

I wonder if NU would be willing to schedule an annual game. Probably not considering their tendency to schedule complete patsies in the OOC portion of their schedule.

The first fusker fan to reply to this gets a big face full of neg rep... :lol:

 

[The Guest]

I think the PAC:10 is a step down from the Big 12 in both football but a much bigger gap in basketball, but that could be made up with the addition of an 11th and 12th team.

For football.

In recent years, the top of the Big XII: Texas, Oklahoma and then a steep drop.
Top of the Pac 10: USC, Oregon and Cal.

Middle of the Big XII pack (so to speak): OSU, Texas Tech, nebraska, Kansas, Missouri.
Middle of the Pac 10: OSU, UCLA, Stanford, Arizona State, Arizona.

Bottom Feeders in Big XII: Colorado, aTm, KSU, Iowa State, Baylor
Pac 10? The Washingtons

I'd also argue that U Dub, nebraska and Colorado all have the tradition to make a step up to the next grouping.

To me, these conferences look competitive in talent at the top, and in depth throughout.

 

[Mick Ronson]

For football.

In recent years, the top of the Big XII: Texas, Oklahoma and then a steep drop.
Top of the Pac 10: USC, Oregon and Cal.

Middle of the Big XII pack (so to speak): OSU, Texas Tech, nebraska, Kansas, Missouri.
Middle of the Pac 10: OSU, UCLA, Stanford, Arizona State, Arizona.

Bottom Feeders in Big XII: Colorado, aTm, KSU, Iowa State, Baylor
Pac 10? The Washingtons

I'd also argue that U Dub, nebraska and Colorado all have the tradition to make a step up to the next grouping.

To me, these conferences look competitive in talent at the top, and in depth throughout.

i think ATM could make a step if circumstances were right. i'd also rank OU and UT significantly higher than UO and Cal. to me UO and Cal are more on par with Mizzou and Tech in recent years: Chase Daniel MU and Leach-era Tech.

 

[dply]

I liked the Big 8. The Big Texas conference has sucked so far. I think the tradition is dead so I don't care if we leave this conference.

 

[Timbuff10]

Settle for Lincoln if it meant the Buffs were playing.

That's the thing though. It will always be in Dallas and Houston with the occasional one in KC every 5 years just so you can't say it is always in Texas. We will never have one at Mile High and Texas like KC isn't anything close to a vacation destination. At least with the Pac12, SoCal is a legit vacation destination.

 

[Liver]

we've had this debate a bajillion times. i think the p10 wants to expand. i don't know if CU is going to be in a position to be a part of that.

first off, there is the issue of paying the penalty to the b12 if a team leaves early.

second, CU doesn't have anywhere near as many sports as the rest of the p10. we'd need to add at least 2 or more.

third, the p10 has a crappier tv deal. if they add 2 teams, they'll be in a position to improve it, but will it be as good as the b12 contract?

4th, the p10 is not going to split into divisions. period. it is politically unworkable. you'd have to go with some kind of round-robin format deal with probably 9 conference games and you'd need to get everyone to agree that only their "traditional rivalry" game would get played annually.

5th, if utah goes (and i think they are a decent choice) to the p10, there will be immense pressure for the 12th team to be byu, not CU. it will be a political problem. ... just like when the b12 was forced to accept tech and baylor in order to get texas and atm.

i want the Buffs to move to the p10. i believe it is a better fit, culturally and academically. but, i tire of hoping for it and i see a million obstacles. i think the only way it happens is if the b12 blows apart (because mizzery moves to the b10 or something). once those dominoes start to fall, then CU to the p10 becomes much more likely.

 

[Mick Ronson]

Mick, I agree that the "roadtrips for fans" would be a novelty that would wear off after a few years. The alumni population on the west coast however seems to be a valid strength for joining the Pac Ten. Not saying that it is a primary reason, just another bullet in the gun.

My question for you is on the academic side. Since Presidents/Chancellors are the ones that make the decisions on these things, what academic advantages does the Pac Ten have over the Big 12? Would our research funding and peer-groups for professors be significantly improved?

i agree with the alumni population angle to a degree. i can't speak with much personal experience to the academic question since (as you say) that's largely administrative stuff and there's a significant disconnect most of the time between administrators/PR people/economists who sit in Regents and in-class instruction/faculty. peer groups for institutions would be a function of salaries and job stability (which have been bad at CU vs. peer institutions but is improving)....which directly i'm not sure would be something that's guaranteed. talking outside the more alums see games or better TV deals=more money for CU argument=better for CU academics (which i'm not sure is as automatic as many football fans like to think.....)...faculty hires and peer associations have very little to do with sports conference affiliations.

in the realm of perception, the association with the Pac would bring some elevated sense of academic "rank".....but, the Pac has some out of the US News top 100 schools as well. off the top of my head: WSU, OSU, Oregon and the Arizona schools are significantly lower than CU or ATM if i recall. obviously, Cal, Stanford, UCLA, and (lately) USC are excellent schools. but, to me, a lot of that has to do with population density as a concentration in one conference more than anything. Iowa State is ranked higher than half the conference i'd wager.

with the caveat that the US News ranking is a questionable (but accessible) measure in such matters. and CU was considered along with UNC, UVA, Uw-Madison, Mich, Texas 25 years ago as a smaller, gentler version of Cal-Berkeley: as a so-called "Public Ivy". when we were in the Big 8, hardly a towering set of academic schools. since then, CU's rep seems to have dropped in to the Iowa, UCSD, type area. these are fine schools with areas of emphasis or departments that are equal to any university nationally, no slam intended.

 

[Daaah]

5th, if utah goes (and i think they are a decent choice) to the p10, there will be immense pressure for the 12th team to be byu, not CU. it will be a political problem. ... just like when the b12 was forced to accept tech and baylor in order to get texas and atm.

Someone posted a SLC newspaper article that said that BYU was a no go because they will not play on Sundays and the PAC 10 has Sunday games. It seems like that would be a pretty easy obstacle to overcome (stop playing on Sunday), but it is there, I guess.

 

[SINKRATZ]

The money can be figured out. The Pac 10 tv deal isn't great, but the fact that it is up for renewal soon means there's going to be a new, more lucrative deal coming, especially if they can add a conference title game to the package. If memory serves, the Big 12 tv deal is nowhere near as lucrative as the more recently negotiated deals (Big 10, etc) so there is probably more money to be made in an expanded Pac 10 with a new tv deal. Any new deal could be structured to take care of CU's buyout from the Big 12.

 

[B1Buff]

Last summer, the Pac-10 commissioner spoke about this and specifically mention both Utah and BYU as they have both been consistently competitve and to keep the rivalries in tact. He adressed the need to have 12 teams in the conference and have a confernece championship in order to have a stronger finish in football. If anybody is moving to the Pac-10 it will be Utah and BYU. No way CU moves out of the Big 12 unless the Big 12 reforms. Unfortunately, a move to the MWC would be more realistic...however, that would take a MWC reformation (BYU and Utah going to the P10) with BSU and others joining and the MWC becoming a BCS conference. I think in the end we stay in the Big 12...not enough money out there and not realistic with the other teams being more logical.

 

[somebody]

I don't understand either why so many CU fans always seem to be thrilled about the idea of going to the Pac-10. Colorado is not a west coast state and would be nearly 1000 miles from the closest school. If we were in the MWC or a BCS conference like the ACC or Big East then I'd see it as a step up, but we're in one of the top 2 or 3 conferences now anyway.

Ummm, because we live out of state? For me it would be awesome. I live in Phoenix so that's maybe a game every year in driving distance (nod to Montana who makes the BIG drive), and my daughter lives in Portland so I could time visits to see more games every year. Versus going home to see my brothers...

 

[leftybuff]

I vote yes. I am sick of the Big TX conference. The Big 8 bails out the cheating lot of them and then they act like their **** doesn't stink when they are back on top.

 

[ScottyBuff]

i agree with the alumni population angle to a degree. i can't speak with much personal experience to the academic question since (as you say) that's largely administrative stuff and there's a significant disconnect most of the time between administrators/PR people/economists who sit in Regents and in-class instruction/faculty. peer groups for institutions would be a function of salaries and job stability (which have been bad at CU vs. peer institutions but is improving)....which directly i'm not sure would be something that's guaranteed. talking outside the more alums see games or better TV deals=more money for CU argument=better for CU academics (which i'm not sure is as automatic as many football fans like to think.....)...faculty hires and peer associations have very little to do with sports conference affiliations.

in the realm of perception, the association with the Pac would bring some elevated sense of academic "rank".....but, the Pac has some out of the US News top 100 schools as well. off the top of my head: WSU, OSU, Oregon and the Arizona schools are significantly lower than CU or ATM if i recall. obviously, Cal, Stanford, UCLA, and (lately) USC are excellent schools. but, to me, a lot of that has to do with population density as a concentration in one conference more than anything. Iowa State is ranked higher than half the conference i'd wager.

with the caveat that the US News ranking is a questionable (but accessible) measure in such matters. and CU was considered along with UNC, UVA, Uw-Madison, Mich, Texas 25 years ago as a smaller, gentler version of Cal-Berkeley: as a so-called "Public Ivy". when we were in the Big 8, hardly a towering set of academic schools. since then, CU's rep seems to have dropped in to the Iowa, UCSD, type area. these are fine schools with areas of emphasis or departments that are equal to any university nationally, no slam intended.

Good post.

Certainly the Pac Ten isn't as "exclusive" as the Big Ten when it comes to academics. Arizona is a very solid school, however, but Wazzu, ASU, Oregon State all have a long way to go. CU would fit into the Washington/Cal/AZ range as far as demographics and academics.

One interesting facet to the conversation could be Hawai'i. While they certainly aren't a "Stanford" academically, the university has an extremely large endowment, solid academics (at least on par with Wazzu/ASU/OrState). While the travel costs might prove to be prohibitive, the new Pac Ten commish has stated numerous times that they see extremey opportunity to grow the Pac Ten brand international, specifically to Southeast Asia. Adding Hawai'i from a marketability standpoint in that regard could be huge. Obviously that is a real long shot, and no sources have identified any such interest, but if there is any conference that could overcome the travel costs to Hawai'i, it would be the Pac Ten.

Adding a 12th team would then be very difficult, of course.

Another strategy for the Big 12 Conference would be to make the "preemptive strike" to protect against any Big Ten/Pac Ten expansion into their territory. How about the Big 14! The name is already under trademark by the Big 12 Conference, adding BYU and Utah to the Big 12 would completely emasculate any Pac Ten expansion, and protect against Mizzou or another school joining the Big Ten. Also cutting out the MWC's ability to gain "BCS status" would protect their long-term market share along the front range.

While being "defensive" isn't the best reason, adding BYU/Utah to the Big 12 would have many benefits by itself. Both schools offer competitive programs in many sports and the Big 12 isn't as "high and mighty" about the academic freedom issue to prevent BYU from joining.

Not sure how division breakdowns would work, maybe:

WEST...............EAST
Texas...............Oklahoma
Texas A&M.......Nebraska
Texas Tech.......Missouri
Baylor...............Iowa State
Colorado...........Oklahoma State
Utah.................Kansas
Brigham Young..Kansas State

I know, I know, this could go on and on forever, but the "Big 14" could be a way for the Big 12 to avoid "self-implosion" by having their programs cherry-picked by the Big Ten and Pac Ten.

 

[DixonU]

Why is everyone so sour on this idea? The Pac 10's TV contract is expiring and will be reworked. Our alumni, students, image, etc. are more aligned with the West Coast than the Big 12. I like the idea of the move and think it will happen in the next few years.

I could not agree more. This would end up being the best decision four our programs long term health.

 

[Scotch]

I don't think PAC 10 travel will be that big a deal vs. what we already have to deal with. There are some Big 12 destinations(Manhattan and Aimes) that require bus rides from the airport almost as long as the flight. In the PAC 10 the longest flight from Denver would be Seattle(around 2.5 hours), and the shortest Salt Lake(about an hour). USC, UCLA, ASU, CAL, Stanford, UW, Utah, and CU are all located less than an hour away from major international airports. I don't know about Arizona, Oregon, and OSU. WSU is a bitch, but so is Manhattan and Aimes.

I would like it if CU moved to the PAC 10/12. I never thought there was anything special about the old Big 8(Outside of Okie and the fuskers). If CU and the fuskers never played again it'd be fine by me. IMO this change would be a good thing for CU.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Lemme finish the B12 tour first. Then it's off to a new set of locations. Send CU to either the Pac-10 or the SEC. Since this is the standard offseason fantacy thread, why not stir it up.

I'm putting in a request for CU to join the SEC first, and then after a decade or two, then move CU to the Pac10. That way I can enjoy the road trip tailgates while my liver still functions, and then appriciate the mild climate of the west during my golden years.

CU joining in the SEC would be awesome. Think of the recruiting possibilities. And since we are talking about money, why settle for Pac10 leftovers if you can dine on SEC steak? Besides, CU is closer to Arkansas, LSU, Vanderbuilt and Old Miss than to the Oregon and Washington schools.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

CU joining in the SEC would be awesome. Think of the recruiting possibilities. And since we are talking about money, why settle for Pac10 leftovers if you can dine on SEC steak? Besides, CU is closer to Arkansas, LSU, Vanderbuilt and Old Miss than to the Oregon and Washington schools.

You think we're struggling now, just put us up against SEC competition. :lol:

 

[justicewhite]

AP/DP just picked up the story, mentioning the discussion of invitations going to Colorado and Utah as "speculation."

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_14367217

 

[sackman]

Every year that passes, this issue gets brought up. Every year, nothing comes from it. I'm hoping that eventually, something comes of it. The Pac 10 (12) intrigues me. Airfare is cheap to the places we'd go, there are a ton of alumni in the areas, and I would expect the money to be much better. Enough better, perhaps, to have CU increase it's varsity sports offerings.

The Pac 10 won't change it's scheduling, and BYU won't budge on not playing on Sundays. I think the BYU discussion is dead. Neither side would concede. From the Pac 10's perspective, it can't change the rules the other 11 teams play under for the benefit of one school. From BYU's perspective, it's a religious thing, and religious things cannot be compromised.

 

[SINKRATZ]

AP/DP just picked up the story, mentioning the discussion of invitations going to Colorado and Utah as "speculation."

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_14367217

The San Francisco Chronicle just picked up the story too. Based on the reader comments you would think Colorado was 3000 miles away. The favorites among the readers seem to be Utah, BYU, or Boise.

 

[Deleted member 807]

You think we're struggling now, just put us up against SEC competition. :lol:

People still watch CU football for the football?
After the last decade, I thought that it's all about the tailgating.

 

[Darian3Hagan]

Who wouldn't want to join the 12 Pac?