Daily Camera WR article

[somebody]

Wasn't last year 2008????????

:rofl2:

 

[BuffFan]

Not against my argument. I never said Denver had a bad WR group the year he was drafted. I was asked how many WR were drafted on to teams with poor WR's. I just answered the question.

My argument was that Eddie Royal is the exception to a rookie WR being a major contributor in their first year, not the rule.

? you counted ER as a player drafted to a team with poor WR's and the original conversation was about how many rookies contribute there first year. ER contribuled a lot his rookie year.

 

[Chilly]

The Pros and Collage are apples and oranges. Look at how many big Collage programs have true freshman playing. Michigan and Missouri are playing several true freshmen and are undefeated.

Michigan
WR1
13 Greg Mathews | 6-3, 209, Sr., 3V
22 Darryl Stonum | 6-2, 188, So., 1V
6 JeRon Stokes | 6-0, 181, Fr., HS
WR2
9 Martavious Odoms | 5-9, 171, Fr., 1V
19 Kelvin Grady | 5-9, 168, Jr., RS
7 Terrance Robinson | 5-9, 173, Fr., HS
12 Roy Roundtree | 6-0, 174, Fr., HS WR3
21 Junior Hemingway | 6-1, 220, Jr., 1V
82 LaTerryal Savoy | 6-3, 213, Sr., 3V
18 James Rogers | 6-1, 183, Jr., 2V

http://michigan.rivals.com/playerstats.asp


10 WR on the depth chart. Only 1 freshman breaks into the 2 deep

Missouri
WR1
4 Jared Perry | 6-1, 180, Sr., 3V
16 Brandon Gerau | 6-0, 175, So., RS
5 Rolandis Woodland | 6-3, 195, Fr., RS
2 L. Washington | 6-4, 180, Fr., HS
WR2
8 Wes Kemp | 6-4, 225, So., 1V
86 Beau Brinkley | 6-4, 230, So., 1V
3 Gahn McGaffie | 5-10, 185, Fr., RS
14 Jaleel Clark | 6-5, 210, Fr., HS
WR3
81 Danario Alexander | 6-5, 210, Sr., 3V
29 Jerrell Jackson | 6-1, 190, So., 1V
28 T.J. Moe | 6-0, 190, Fr., HS
88 Forrest Shock | 6-1, 210, Jr., 2V

http://missouri.rivals.com/playerstats.asp
Alexander and Perry have more catches between those 2 then the rest of the team combined.


12 WR on the depth chart. Zero Freshman on the 2 deep

 

[fatbuff]

speaking of respect, nice post! did something in that post touch a nerve

Dont call out the players. How ****ing hard is that? Arent you a fusker in Buffs clothing?

 

[Chilly]

? you counted ER as a player drafted to a team with poor WR's and the original conversation was about how many rookies contribute there first year. ER contribuled a lot his rookie year.

Lets try this again.

The point was posed the if Eddie Royal can go the Bronco's and contribute right away so can the CU WR.

I countered that ER is an exception not the rule. If you look at the number of WR that are drafted in any given year, very few of them contribute like ER did.

I was then asked "How many WR were drafted last year on to teams that had serious talent issues at that position?" I can only assume that sacky thinks ER was drafted onto a team with serious talent issues at that position which is why he got to start and contribute right away, and that if the other WR had been drafted onto teams with poor WR talent then they two would have been able to contribute like ER did. If that is not the point of his post, then I don't see the relevance.

I simple answered the question and included ER in the count because the I don't want the thread to turn into a thread about ER and Donkey WR talent.

 

[buffs04]

Could it be that we are running this horrible scheme because short passing and "timing routes" allow Cody Hawkins to be "successful" (and I mean that as cynically as possible) because he can't throw a ball 15 yards down the field?

There is a reason you don't see 5 yard passing as a staple in college football: it doesn't work at this level.

So what we are stuck with is playing our non-playmaker WRs because they know our overly complicated playbook better than our playmaker WRs because our non-playmaker QB can't throw the ball far enough for the playmaker WRs to be useful. This is why we are bad.

Edit: I really get a kick out of those of you that suggest the WRs we are trotting out there right now really are the best option. If you think these guys are going to be able to catch even 150 yards of combined passes against the better Big 12 defenses, I don't know what to say. These guys can't get open down the field against CSU, Toledo, and Wyoming. This is probably the only football commentary I can recall ever hearing people suggest that WR speed and size are not important. There is no such thing as a successful #1 option receiver that is not either very fast or very big or both. Wes Welker is good in the slot as a #3 receiver because he plays across Randy Moss, a player who is both very fast and very big. There is no logical argument for or precedent of what we are doing being successful. When what you are trying is failing horribly week after week, you try something else. Anything else.

There will still be people supporting the current line up of QB and WR after the first (and there will be more than one, I assure you) 150-yard, sub-50% passing performance, I am sure. But I will tell you this: if Cody Hawkins, Jason Espinoza, and Scotty McKnight (who actually belongs on the field) are not successful in the passing game in 3 consecutive attempts against the likes of CSU, Toledo, and Wyoming, they never will be. Ever.

 

[Buffarino]

So what we are stuck with is playing our non-playmaker WRs because they know our overly complicated playbook better than our playmaker WRs because our non-playmaker QB can't throw the ball far enough for the playmaker WRs to be useful. This is why we are bad.

That might be the most succinct breakdown of the issue I have seen yet.

Rep delivered.

 

[Chilly]

Could it be that we are running this horrible scheme because short passing and "timing routes" allow Cody Hawkins to be "successful" (and I mean that as cynically as possible) because he can't throw a ball 15 yards down the field?

There is a reason you don't see 5 yard passing as a staple in college football: it doesn't work at this level.

So what we are stuck with is playing our non-playmaker WRs because they know our overly complicated playbook better than our playmaker WRs because our non-playmaker QB can't throw the ball far enough for the playmaker WRs to be useful. This is why we are bad.

Edit: I really get a kick out of those of you that suggest the WRs we are trotting out there right now really are the best option. If you think these guys are going to be able to catch even 150 yards of combined passes against the better Big 12 defenses, I don't know what to say. These guys can't get open down the field against CSU, Toledo, and Wyoming. This is probably the only football commentary I can recall ever hearing people suggest that WR speed and size are not important. There is no such thing as a successful #1 option receiver that is not either very fast or very big or both. Wes Welker is good in the slot as a #3 receiver because he plays across Randy Moss, a player who is both very fast and very big. There is no logical argument for or precedent of what we are doing being successful. When what you are trying is failing horribly week after week, you try something else. Anything else.

There will still be people supporting the current line up of QB and WR after the first (and there will be more than one, I assure you) 150-yard, sub-50% passing performance, I am sure. But I will tell you this: if Cody Hawkins, Jason Espinoza, and Scotty McKnight (who actually belongs on the field) are not successful in the passing game in 3 consecutive attempts against the likes of CSU, Toledo, and Wyoming, they never will be. Ever.

It really is tough having a rational conversation with people when they only read what they want to and not the substance of the debate. NO ONE said this. I am not about to waste my time repeating the points that have been made. But if you ever want to take the time to actually comprehend what you are reading, you should go back and re-read what is being said.

 

[BuffFan]

Michigan
WR1
13 Greg Mathews | 6-3, 209, Sr., 3V
22 Darryl Stonum | 6-2, 188, So., 1V
6 JeRon Stokes | 6-0, 181, Fr., HS
WR2
9 Martavious Odoms | 5-9, 171, Fr., 1V
19 Kelvin Grady | 5-9, 168, Jr., RS
7 Terrance Robinson | 5-9, 173, Fr., HS
12 Roy Roundtree | 6-0, 174, Fr., HS WR3
21 Junior Hemingway | 6-1, 220, Jr., 1V
82 LaTerryal Savoy | 6-3, 213, Sr., 3V
18 James Rogers | 6-1, 183, Jr., 2V

http://michigan.rivals.com/playerstats.asp


10 WR on the depth chart. Only 1 freshman breaks into the 2 deep

Missouri
WR1
4 Jared Perry | 6-1, 180, Sr., 3V
16 Brandon Gerau | 6-0, 175, So., RS
5 Rolandis Woodland | 6-3, 195, Fr., RS
2 L. Washington | 6-4, 180, Fr., HS
WR2
8 Wes Kemp | 6-4, 225, So., 1V
86 Beau Brinkley | 6-4, 230, So., 1V
3 Gahn McGaffie | 5-10, 185, Fr., RS
14 Jaleel Clark | 6-5, 210, Fr., HS
WR3
81 Danario Alexander | 6-5, 210, Sr., 3V
29 Jerrell Jackson | 6-1, 190, So., 1V
28 T.J. Moe | 6-0, 190, Fr., HS
88 Forrest Shock | 6-1, 210, Jr., 2V

http://missouri.rivals.com/playerstats.asp
Alexander and Perry have more catches between those 2 then the rest of the team combined.


12 WR on the depth chart. Zero Freshman on the 2 deep

On your List:

Washington and Moe both contributing freshman this year.

Upperclassman on depth chart with less catches than Washington and Moe: Gerau, Brinkly, Woodland, McGaffie, and Shock

Jackson, Kemp played as true freshman last year and now are their 3rd and 4th best receivers this year

I think that shows that Mizzu plays the talent first.

 

[sackman]

Lets try this again.

The point was posed the if Eddie Royal can go the Bronco's and contribute right away so can the CU WR.

I countered that ER is an exception not the rule. If you look at the number of WR that are drafted in any given year, very few of them contribute like ER did.

I was then asked "How many WR were drafted last year on to teams that had serious talent issues at that position?" I can only assume that sacky thinks ER was drafted onto a team with serious talent issues at that position which is why he got to start and contribute right away, and that if the other WR had been drafted onto teams with poor WR talent then they two would have been able to contribute like ER did. If that is not the point of his post, then I don't see the relevance.

I simple answered the question and included ER in the count because the I don't want the thread to turn into a thread about ER and Donkey WR talent.

Ah, no. That wasn't the point. The point was that CU has talent issues at WR, and that we should be using the talent we've brought in and not keeping it on the bench.

So with all those WRs that were drafted, how many in the first couple rounds, and how many of those played a significant amount of plays? More importantly, how many of the WRs that were drafted represented what most observers would equate to an upgrade over the talent that was already in place?

 

[BuffFan]

Michigan
WR1
13 Greg Mathews | 6-3, 209, Sr., 3V
22 Darryl Stonum | 6-2, 188, So., 1V
6 JeRon Stokes | 6-0, 181, Fr., HS
WR2
9 Martavious Odoms | 5-9, 171, Fr., 1V
19 Kelvin Grady | 5-9, 168, Jr., RS
7 Terrance Robinson | 5-9, 173, Fr., HS
12 Roy Roundtree | 6-0, 174, Fr., HS WR3
21 Junior Hemingway | 6-1, 220, Jr., 1V
82 LaTerryal Savoy | 6-3, 213, Sr., 3V
18 James Rogers | 6-1, 183, Jr., 2V

http://michigan.rivals.com/playerstats.asp


10 WR on the depth chart. Only 1 freshman breaks into the 2 deep

Missouri
WR1
4 Jared Perry | 6-1, 180, Sr., 3V
16 Brandon Gerau | 6-0, 175, So., RS
5 Rolandis Woodland | 6-3, 195, Fr., RS
2 L. Washington | 6-4, 180, Fr., HS
WR2
8 Wes Kemp | 6-4, 225, So., 1V
86 Beau Brinkley | 6-4, 230, So., 1V
3 Gahn McGaffie | 5-10, 185, Fr., RS
14 Jaleel Clark | 6-5, 210, Fr., HS
WR3
81 Danario Alexander | 6-5, 210, Sr., 3V
29 Jerrell Jackson | 6-1, 190, So., 1V
28 T.J. Moe | 6-0, 190, Fr., HS
88 Forrest Shock | 6-1, 210, Jr., 2V

http://missouri.rivals.com/playerstats.asp
Alexander and Perry have more catches between those 2 then the rest of the team combined.


12 WR on the depth chart. Zero Freshman on the 2 deep

On your list of the top 6 WR's, only Kemp did not play as a true Freshman. Before you pull stats to make your point try checking them.

 

[Chilly]

On your List:

Washington and Moe both contributing freshman this year.

Upperclassman on depth chart with less catches than Washington and Moe: Gerau, Brinkly, Woodland, McGaffie, and Shock

Jackson, Kemp played as true freshman last year and now are their 3rd and 4th best receivers this year

I think that shows that Mizzu plays the talent first.

Jackson had a total of 9 catches last year as a freshman. Kemp played in 7 games and had 1 catch. They were not starters making major contributions as Freshman. They saw limited PT allowing them to grow into the system.

How is that contribution any different then what we are seeing from our young group this year. They are all getting game time, and as they continue to improve and show the coaches they are catching on, I expect their PT to increase.

 

[Chilly]

On your list of the top 6 WR's, only Kemp did not play as a true Freshman. Before you pull stats to make your point try checking them.

Stats speak for themselves. Playing as a true freshman and starting as a true freshman are different. You guys continue to argue that our young WR should be starting, NOT just playing. The fact is they are playing.

So rather than trying to constantly changing the argument, try sticking with one.

 

[Buffarino]

The fact is they are playing.

Technically, they are playing. But they aren't playing very much at all.

 

[BuffFan]

Stats speak for themselves. Playing as a true freshman and starting as a true freshman are different. You guys continue to argue that our young WR should be starting, NOT just playing. The fact is they are playing.

So rather than trying to constantly changing the argument, try sticking with one.

Nice try Mr. Clinton (Mister "depends on what the definition of is is") Our freshman get a lot less time on the field, and Ussery and Darden have more talent than Espy and Ebner and are Redshirts this year.

 

[BuffLuke80]

It's not as simple as teaching them a few routes. Some kids come outta high school and dont even know what cover two is. It's no excuse, they need to be brought up to speed quickly. Just saying, if u have actually played the position, its a little more complicated than that.

 

[BuffFan]

Jackson had a total of 9 catches last year as a freshman. Kemp played in 7 games and had 1 catch. They were not starters making major contributions as Freshman. They saw limited PT allowing them to grow into the system.

How is that contribution any different then what we are seeing from our young group this year. They are all getting game time, and as they continue to improve and show the coaches they are catching on, I expect their PT to increase.

Can't continue this with you. Ebner over Wright and Jefferson makes no sense and you don't seem to see that. We will have to agree to disagree. Time will tell.

 

[JimmyBuff]

Ashley Ambrose was a corner back in the NFL, yet he's going to coach WR in college? Weird..


Clemons looks to be the real deal..



Good thread guys with good arguments on both sides. I think the better players will eventually catch up and play more than the walkons as they become more comfortable performing in a college offense..


Regardless of who started or who didn't, who's played more than who, etc it had no bearing on the first two games of the year.. The WR don't play defense, the biggest reason why we started 0-2..

 

[buffsyko]

Dont call out the players. How ****ing hard is that? Arent you a fusker in Buffs clothing?

I think simmons and simas should play more than espy. Is that okay board sherriff? If not, don't give a ****.

 

[BuffsRising]

I think simmons and simas should play more than espy. Is that okay board sherriff? If not, don't give a ****.

Fatbuff was responding to a guy who attacked some CU players(see post #3 of this thread). And that wasn't okay, and that's why a moderator stepped in. But feel free not to give a ****.

 

[Hank]

Comparing the success of rookie NFL WRs and freshman WRs seems to be a waste of board space. Too many variables between the NFL game and the college game.

It's a crazy idea, but why not compare freshman WRs to freshman WRs?

Maclin and Crabtree and had big freshman years. Bryant and Briscoe had solid freshman years (about 550 yards and 40 receptions each) and then had huge sophomore years. Not sure what that shows.

 

[Duff Man]

To Black N Gold and 04, thank you for summing it up nicely. The main problem on this team has been and continues to be the QB position. I'm frustrated as hell with the WRs that are seeing the bulk of the playing time, but it does not really matter because we do not have the QB to make WRs successful.

 

[FlatironsBuff]

To Black N Gold and 04, thank you for summing it up nicely. The main problem on this team has been and continues to be the QB position. I'm frustrated as hell with the WRs that are seeing the bulk of the playing time, but it does not really matter because we do not have the QB to make WRs successful.

This.

 

[DBT]

The "thread to nowhere." :huh:

 

[fatbuff]

I think simmons and simas should play more than espy. Is that okay board sherriff? If not, don't give a ****.

You're always welcome to go blow your buddys over at Good Shepard's place. You've been running the same tired routine since Skippy left whining about the football team validating your self esteem. How about a new act?
Sincerely,
Superfan Sherriff

 

[SkiTownUSA]

The "thread to nowhere." :huh:

My thoughts exactly. No one is going to win this debate. Let the thread out to the pasture to die.

 

[TheRoyale90]

You're always welcome to go blow your buddys over at Good Shepard's place. You've been running the same tired routine since Skippy left whining about the football team validating your self esteem. How about a new act?
Sincerely,
Superfan Sherriff

All due respect sherriff... who are you to tell anyone how to be a fan? You and chilly are the self appointed thought police here. I made an 'inappropriate' comment and got rightly blasted for it. That's fine but in general sunshine pumpers like you guys just can't stand the fact that we disagree with you. Good luck trying to bully syko and the rest of us negative bastards into seeing it your way.

 

[fatbuff]

All due respect sherriff... who are you to tell anyone how to be a fan? You and chilly are the self appointed thought police here. I made an 'inappropriate' comment and got rightly blasted for it. That's fine but in general sunshine pumpers like you guys just can't stand the fact that we disagree with you. Good luck trying to bully syko and the rest of us negative bastards into seeing it your way.

Who is a sunshine pumper? Im probably more pissed off than anybody, but I dont think everyone on the board wants to read post after post of the same old bull****. We get it. You and syko are pissed, and Dan Hawkins is ruining the team just to spite you.
I do know one thing for sure, your continual negative harping is doing nothing to help recruiting should DH be retained as coach next year, nor is it going to do anything to determine whether or not DH is retained. Carry on.

Sincerely,
Superfan Sunshine Pumper Sherriff

 

[Chilly]

All due respect sherriff... who are you to tell anyone how to be a fan? You and chilly are the self appointed thought police here. I made an 'inappropriate' comment and got rightly blasted for it. That's fine but in general sunshine pumpers like you guys just can't stand the fact that we disagree with you. Good luck trying to bully syko and the rest of us negative bastards into seeing it your way.

I beg to differ. You haven't seen me on here ranting and raving and personally attacking you guys for your opinions. I have disagreed with them and posted my reasons as to why they are different, but in general, I am not the one posting thread after thread after thread full of negativity. From my point of view, in general the Hawkins hatters like you guys just can't stand the fact that we disagree with you.

Funny how perspective works isn't it.

 

[TheRoyale90]

To chilly and fatbuff:

I'm over it. I know hawk isn't going anywhere. I know Cody will be the starter till the day he graduates. I know that Espy and company are our best receivers. I'm not being sarcastic. I know these things are true. I actually stopped posting "fire hawk" stuff last week and yesterday's comments about the receivers was like a last hurrah for my defiance. This constant losing, constant excuse making complacency that has set in to the program has pretty much finally broken me. I've always said that I'll be a Buff until I die so I'm not going to "sports divorce" the team. I'll just make my peace with the fact we are a bottom feeder and hope for a bowl game once or twice a decade.