Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Jaximus, Nov 27, 2012.
When Embree was moving his way up the Coaches' Hotseat list, based on his performance, nobody was implying racism.
Good. It seems like there is a lot of angst over the black coaching issue (and rightly so), but no one wants to make Jon the posterchild of a wronged black coach.
Plus the BCA coordinator did concede that Embree's record had something to do with Embree's dismissal.
I don't want this taken the wrong way, but black coaches don't get jobs because as an AD when/if you have to fire them, that seems to be the first card played. Although, not always by the coach, but the media sure looks at it that way. They (african-american) aren't getting coaching jobs because if something doesn't work out, the media perception is that they were fired for race, not performance. As an AD, it's tough enough to fire a coach, let alone having to deal with the race card shortly thereafter. I'm in no way blaming the coaches, but people like Stephen A and some other prominent black media members jump on race as the reason and often overlook other factors.
They did make mention of the fact that Hawkins (a white coach) was given 5 years. But I think anyone who looks into that situation could see that he at least had them going to a bowl game and was bringing in a good recruiting class. He should have only had 4 years though. I doubt this whole situation is a deterrent for the next coach regardless of his skin color.
I would really like to see context on the out of 41 fired, only one re-hired. It could be that out of all first time head coaches, white, black, brown, or green, that only 1 in 40 get another chance at the HC level.
Note: my personal suspicion is that the number among all first time HC's who get fired is that slightly more than 1 in 40 get another shot, but not much more (like 2 or 3 of 40) - I have nothing to base that on though, which is why I would be really interested in the seeing the actual number.
As I've said before, I think you can make a case with Karl Dorrell. Winning record at UCLA, including +wins in conference play. Hasn't gotten a new job. I've only heard his name connected with the Duke finalists when Cutcliffe was hired. Seems weird to me. But then again, one person could be about the individual. 40/41 is quite a pattern, though. I wonder how often white coaches get re-hired for D1 jobs if they've been fired from one. Dirk Koetter's a pretty similar situation to Dorrell and he hasn't been able to get re-hired despite the Boise State success he had before going 40-34 at ASU.
I keep saying over and over again that CU will not be attacked nationally for this decision. The facts supported his termination. The lesson learned is that you should hire people based on their record to get the job done, not on their ties or even devotion to the institution. There was nothing in the history of this staff that supported that they could get the job done. It was a high risk move that failed. I take no pleasure in that. The school needs to be criticized for making a high risk move with Embree two years ago when they really needed to make a safer choice.
I believe the next hire is the most critical decision the athletic department has ever had to make. They had better not screw it up.
As a wise old fool once said, "Y'all better be able to fire a black coach, if'n y'all ever want to see 'nother one hired!"
Funny they ignored Dennis Green on their list. Wasn't he hired about six times or so? Or were they all lateral moves?
Nonetheless, with a few notable exceptions, the NFL seems to be the career choice for black coachs, rather than college and the two career paths rarely allow for successful cross-overs.
I agree with other folks in this thread. There's no question in my mind that black coaches haven't gotten many opportunities (particularly when considering the number of black players) and it does seem that once a black head coach loses a job that's it, whereas folks like Lane Kiffin somehow get amazing jobs for reasons that allude me. Does anyone really think that if Lane Kiffin were black he would have gotten the Tennessee job after the debacle at the Raiders? Doubtful. That being said, Embree's isn't a good example. We went 1-11 this year and very nearly 0-12. We lost to the likes of Sac State and CSU and got blown out in most games. It's clear that this staff wasn't up for it. Whether that's Embree's fault or the coordinators or whatever, a change was needed.
I'd argue, however, that Embree was put in the worst situation of any CU coach in history--at least recent history (I can't speak for the pre-McCartney era). I don't think race played a role in that, but keep in mind that his salary and that of his assistants was considerably lower than most BCS schools. He also inherited a broken program. CU's facilities are also in desperate need of an upgrade and none was forthcoming. Again, I personally don't think race was a factor, but the cards were stacked against Embree.
fify - and I'm wondering the same thing. I suspect it's a pretty low number - and they have to go to D2 or a coordinator roll before they get another shot.
The HELL with Alien coaches! They are all idots!
The case of Karl Dorrell is really interesting. The guy is the QB coach for the Texans. Really has done well about everywhere he's been. A mid-major would be well served to take a long look at him.
The reason CU isn't getting heat nationally (local heat is a joke) is because the Buffs were a national punchline week to week, so the evidence is crystal clear.
I think we need a special investigation on the lack of white cornerbacks.
The lack of black head coaches and even AD's is something that still needs progress, no doubt. I don't have a problem with anything said really. That said, in Embree's case, the we don't get a second chance thing made me think. I can see other coaches using that argument and rightfully so. Embree doesn't get a first chance had CU not hired him. Maybe somewhere smaller but I doubt major conference schools were beating down his door. I'm not trying to be an ass, that's just how I see it. Most big schools, if not all, wouldn't touch a guy as a HC with no coordinator experience. The AD gets no pass on this either, they share the blame IMHO. Seems like Embo got a solid and it didn't work out. Hope he learns from mistakes and moves forward.
Do you know what helps black coaches? Winning.
Winning helps any coach. I wish Embree could have got it rolling but he couldn't. IMHO he isn't ready. Will he ever be? That's up to him.
About 14 African American head coaches in all of the BCS shows that it is a problem. There are schools in the south that will never consider an African American for a head coach position.
The biggest problem is putting these black coaches in a position to fail.
I'm pretty sure if Mississippi State hired a black head coach, anyone in the South can.
Race should have absolutely no effect on hiring a and firings. Hire the most qualified and fire him if he's not providing good results whether they are black, white, purple, or pink.
I will agree with this and I think he has really hurt himself with the way he has dealt with it. Position coach eventually but there will be a real resistance to hiring a guy who trashed his University the way he has and blamed everyone but himself.
Embree's future is likely the NFL. He's a very good TE Coach and would be an asset to pretty much NFL staff.
I could see this and it would be a better fit.
I agree, who the **** is gonna win at New Mexico St? Higher profile jobs are needed, Shaw looks like a pretty damn good coach to me. Harbaugh got it going but Shaw hasn't missed a beat. I get all of that, I think it still needs a ton of progress. That said, Embree isn't a part if that other than being African American. He needs experience other than a position coach. I hope he sees what he did wrong. Coaches put their guys in position to be successful, that's easy to do with AP or Gonzalez. Different ball game with college kids.
Embree knows football better than me. It doesn't matter if you can't get it across to the players you are trying to teach. You have to treat them like men but teach them like kids. That job is not for everybody.
Yes I do. Case Keenum and Johnny Football.
Except for Ole Miss, maybe.
Separate names with a comma.