Interesting Embree comments on the Seniors

[Quattro]

Never flip flopped, but if being internet tough guy makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

We're 1-7, getting slaughtered, we look over-matched in all phases, and recruiting is mediocre at this point. We've got a handful of commits I'm pretty excited about, but we're way behind in some of our biggest areas of need (OL, DB, LB, and TE). No one is getting fired (and they shouldn't), but it's too easy just to say that injuries and shi**y players are the only thing wrong with this team - I don't see why members of the current staff (particularly the ones who have been here for years and have a hand in this mess) should be above criticism.

I hope this staff brings it all together and in 3 years we're back to competing for conference championships, but we're a long way away.

Hmm I didn't know NSD was in October for football...

As for the overmatched, no **** sherlock. The games we've looked overmatched in (tOSU, Stanford, UW, and Oregon), all have much much much more talent than we do and three of the teams have been ranked, with two in the top 10 when we played them. How many of them are so ravaged by injuries that they're playing a true freshman 5'7" RB at CB? What about a walk on WR at CB? I'm going to wager none of them do. There's a lack of leadership in the upper classman but talent is by and wide the biggest issue right now.

 

[SINKRATZ]

I liked what I saw from Derrick Webb, Rippy, before the injury was blossoming once Coach Care Bear got out of the way and players who wanted to lay the wood were encouraged, rather than told to tone it down, Major is a nice player, I think he will be better next year, a year further fromhis injury, Juda Parker will be a plyer IMO. Cabral is still doing a good job if you ask me. Hell, Jordon Dizon was not recruited as an LB and BC turned him into a NFL 2d rounder, what do you want the guy to do?

Rippy looked good, it was awful to see him go down. I'm glad he's got another year. The jury is definitely still out on Webb and certainly Parker. They could turn out to be very good, but time will tell. Major is an average (at best) D1 linebacker right now - the injury is no doubt a factor, but we've got zero depth behind him so as long as he can walk he's going to be starting. Dizon was a very good college LB, but he graduated 4 years ago which is a lifetime in college football.

To answer your question, I would personally like to see recruiting improve dramatically. If talent is our biggest hurdle as a team, then fix it with recruiting.

 

[SINKRATZ]

Hmm I didn't know NSD was in October for football...

As for the overmatched, no **** sherlock. The games we've looked overmatched in (tOSU, Stanford, UW, and Oregon), all have much much much more talent than we do and three of the teams have been ranked, with two in the top 10 when we played them. How many of them are so ravaged by injuries that they're playing a true freshman 5'7" RB at CB? What about a walk on WR at CB? I'm going to wager none of them do. There's a lack of leadership in the upper classman but talent is by and wide the biggest issue right now.

Tini, I agree with what you're saying and am not denying that injuries have killed us this year - we're giving up 37 points a game, but part of the reason they're killing us is that we have no depth on defense forcing us to trot out Espinoza, Lockridge, and Mahnke as starters - that an indictment on several years of recruiting. We've played some very good teams, but we have also given up a 10 point lead with 2:35 to go in the game...at home...to Wazzou's backup QB, so yes I do place part of the blame on the coaches who have been here for years and are partly responsible for the dearth of talent and production on D.

 

[Wyo Buff]

What the f**k are you talking about? Success wand? This is a fan message board not a g**damn coaching clinic, it's an opinion nothing more. But thanks for explaining how this works, from here on out I'll just blame the old coach and the talent he left behind and have faith the current staff is doing everything right despite actual results.

Man... you are making this way more fun than it should be. Stick around, brother. Noone expect cogent, coherent or consistent arguments here so you will do just fine.

 

[wablty]

Just an opposing fan passing through. I understand you're 'rebuilding' at the moment, so I was curious:

What is Embree known for? What is his style in an ideal world? Passing guy? Run guy? Defensive? It seems to me that when you're dismal, and ASU has been there pretty recently, you find one area of the game to hang your hat on and I was wondering what that will be? Where is he going to allocate the majority of his resources initially?

 

[SINKRATZ]

Man... you are making this way more fun than it should be. Stick around, brother. Noone expect cogent, coherent or consistent arguments here so you will do just fine.

I'm not sure why this has everyone's panties in a twist. I've been consistent, but I'll try to spell it out as simply as I can for you - I think Cabral deserves some criticism because our defense stinks and has for years, the best LB we've had in recent memory graduated 4 years ago, and I think his recruiting has been sub-par as evidenced by our lack of talent and depth.

The responses I've gotten are that I'm a pussy, flip-flopper, inciteful, and now incoherent - all good, well thought out arguments, but I'd rather hear why I'm so out of line to be critical of the guy.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Just an opposing fan passing through. I understand you're 'rebuilding' at the moment, so I was curious:

What is Embree known for? What is his style in an ideal world? Passing guy? Run guy? Defensive? It seems to me that when you're dismal, and ASU has been there pretty recently, you find one area of the game to hang your hat on and I was wondering what that will be? Where is he going to allocate the majority of his resources initially?

Scowling.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

I'm not sure why this has everyone's panties in a twist. I've been consistent, but I'll try to spell it out as simply as I can for you - I think Cabral deserves some criticism because our defense stinks and has for years, the best LB we've had in recent memory graduated 4 years ago, and I think his recruiting has been sub-par as evidenced by our lack of talent and depth.

The responses I've gotten are that I'm a pussy, flip-flopper, inciteful, and now incoherent - all good, well thought out arguments, but I'd rather hear why I'm so out of line to be critical of the guy.

I have to wonder how much Cabral has in the tank. He has been an honest and true Buff. He has been a CU staffer since the 1980's. He has never been elevated above the position of assistant coach. He has done some amazing things with LB's - but truly the position has declined over the last few years. He was once an amazing recruiter in Hawaii and with Polynesian players - but that too seems to have waned some.

I would like for Cabral to remain at CU for as long as he wants to - I just wonder sometimes if he really wants to do it. I feel sort of bad for him that he continually gets passed up. He was an amazing ambassador and caretaker for the program at the end of the season last year.

 

[wablty]

Scowling.

So he's an understated Mike Stoops that never got to play with his brother's defense?

 

[Quattro]

So he's an understated Mike Stoops that never got to play with his brother's defense?

Don't listen to him. He's a CU "fan" who slobs OUs knob. Embree said when he was hired we were going to be like Stanford is. Tough running team that uses the TE but we don't have the personnel to run that yet.

 

[sackman]

So he's an understated Mike Stoops that never got to play with his brother's defense?

I think the ideal that Embree would like to achieve would be a replica of CU's 2001 team. Downhill running game with good play action passing.

 

[azbuff]

What the f**k are you talking about? Success wand? This is a fan message board not a g**damn coaching clinic, it's an opinion nothing more. But thanks for explaining how this works, from here on out I'll just blame the old coach and the talent he left behind and have faith the current staff is doing everything right despite actual results.

Whoa, easy there Internet tough guy.

 

[Buff_since76]

 

[BuffLuke80]

I dont think anybody is above criticism but maybe its how u said it Sink. Said it before, Ill say it again, be hard for any coach to produce here right now. The recruiting issues are valid and I dont think that is wrong to point out, it has to improve period. Tini was right on a few points here. Plan isnt the issue, having the horses to execute is. Sink, if you can take all that and still win, by all means be CU's head coach.

 

[White_Rabbit]

Sinkratz is hardly the first person to insinuate Cabral should take a little heat for where we're at. You guys are acting like he just told you the earth revolved around the sun.

 

[Mick Ronson]

it was my opinion we should have just cleaned house totally. no more Hagan, no more Cabral. we needed a new start. maybe Cabral needed a new job. he could get one.

that it went this way (back to the past, which we already did with Barnett a decade ago)....i could live with. but i did not have the enthusiasm others have. i have not given up on Embree....but, i invite any poster to post a list of "he was here as a player when we were great, and now he's back because he understands what it takes to win at Former Great Football Team X"...that didn't fail as head coaches.

back to the past is BS.

i still support these guys. but, those are my feelings as a Colorado football fan since 1976.

edit: what i think is Bohn hitched his "i hired Dan Hawkins" pony to the Mac faithful with a wing and a prayer to keep his job.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Mick --

Those are good points - Bohn did have a lot of pressure to hire a McCartney guy. Embree was a good, safe choice in that regard. I cannot think of too many alums who got jobs at their alma mater.



Time will tell how Embree turns out. So far he's more John Blake than Pat Fitzgerald, but he did not have much to work with when he arrived.

 

[DBT]

I'm sick of all this negative bull****. It is totally unproductive and serves no good purpose. :smile2:

 

[skibum]

but, i invite any poster to post a list of "he was here as a player when we were great, and now he's back because he understands what it takes to win at Former Great Football Team X"...that didn't fail as head coaches.

Off the top of my head, I think Ralph Friedgen, Paul Wulff, and Mike Gundy are all coaches that did all right returning to their alma mater. With the exception of Wulff, those schools at least had reasonable football traditions.

I don't care to actually research the question though, as it's sort of pointless: I would hazard that most first time coaches don't do too well in their first job, which leads to all kinds of statements that are true, but are mistaking cause and effect. "Most first time coaches who have red hair fail, why the hell did you hire coach Ginger?!?!"

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

Off the top of my head, I think Ralph Friedgen, Paul Wulff, and Mike Gundy are all coaches that did all right returning to their alma mater. With the exception of Wulff, those schools at least had reasonable football traditions.

I don't care to actually research the question though, as it's sort of pointless: I would hazard that most first time coaches don't do too well in their first job, which leads to all kinds of statements that are true, but are mistaking cause and effect. "Most first time coaches who have red hair fail, why the hell did you hire coach Ginger?!?!"

Mike Gundy is a first time coach.

Randy Shannon was a player and then later the head coach of the University of Miami, Florida.
Ralph Friedgen was a player and then later the head coach at the University of Maryland.

 

[Wyo Buff]

I'm not sure why this has everyone's panties in a twist. I've been consistent, but I'll try to spell it out as simply as I can for you - I think Cabral deserves some criticism because our defense stinks and has for years, the best LB we've had in recent memory graduated 4 years ago, and I think his recruiting has been sub-par as evidenced by our lack of talent and depth.

The responses I've gotten are that I'm a pussy, flip-flopper, inciteful, and now incoherent - all good, well thought out arguments, but I'd rather hear why I'm so out of line to be critical of the guy.

Honestly? I appreciate your honesty but I am really to lazy and apathetic in regards to answering your question. Short version is, we are about 6 months into an Embree program that has required him to use 15 of the 20 recruits he is responsible for. That shows how weak the talent pool is and how difficult it has been to get buy-in from the Hawk guys on the team. Cabral has been hampered by the Hawk culture but still chose to stay because of his love for CU. He has been hit hard by injury and lack of depth this year. I appreciate and share your frustration with the current state of the team but I have an optimistic view of where we are headed under Embree. Cabral is a true, dyed in the wool, bleed black and gold, Buff. He is also one of the greatest LB coaches in the country. Do not write him off simply because he chose to stay on a sinking ship due to his loyalty to the program. This "turn-around" will take several years to complete. That said, remember this, the 15 freshman who are playing right now will form the senior leadership backbone of a PAC-12 championship contending team in 2014. Four years from now these will be the same guys. Compare that senior class to this years and see where we are.

 

[Dark Bohner]

Honestly? I appreciate your honesty but I am really to lazy and apathetic in regards to answering your question. Short version is, we are about 6 months into an Embree program that has required him to use 15 of the 20 recruits he is responsible for. That shows how weak the talent pool is and how difficult it has been to get buy-in from the Hawk guys on the team. Cabral has been hampered by the Hawk culture but still chose to stay because of his love for CU. He has been hit hard by injury and lack of depth this year. I appreciate and share your frustration with the current state of the team but I have an optimistic view of where we are headed under Embree. Cabral is a true, dyed in the wool, bleed black and gold, Buff. He is also one of the greatest LB coaches in the country. Do not write him off simply because he chose to stay on a sinking ship due to his loyalty to the program. This "turn-around" will take several years to complete. That said, remember this, the 15 freshman who are playing right now will form the senior leadership backbone of a PAC-12 championship contending team in 2014. Four years from now these will be the same guys. Compare that senior class to this years and see where we are.

+1

We take for granted the instant access we have now, compared to 20-25 years ago, to the internet to get stats and stories. We are literally like helicopter parents not allowing the coaching staff to barely take a breath without us questioning why. Let the coaches do their job and lets see where it takes us.

 

[skibum]

Mike Gundy is a first time coach.

And he's the all time leading passer at Okie Light (actually he's the all time leading passer in the Big 8).
I was thinking of played at school --> coached at same school.
And, I would really like for Embree to have the same success as Gundy has had...

Edit to add: I think we're on the same page - I just realized that your comment could be taken as "and he's a first time coach" instead of how I initially read it "first time coach, but otherwise doesn't belong on list."

 

[Mick Ronson]

And he's the all time leading passer at Okie Light (actually he's the all time leading passer in the Big 8).
I was thinking of played at school --> coached at same school.
And, I would really like for Embree to have the same success as Gundy has had...

Edit to add: I think we're on the same page - I just realized that your comment could be taken as "and he's a first time coach" instead of how I initially read it "first time coach, but otherwise doesn't belong on list."

Gundy is a very good example of success (even though you could argue Lester Miles put OSU back on a good path). Friedgren, too. the NWestern guy. other than that....i see more Mike Shula, John Blake, John Bunting at N. Carolina, Randy Shannon types...and if you want to go basketball....Sidney Lowe at NC State, or Clyde Drexler at Houston....etc. it's a desperate move that schools make when they've lost real market viability, imo.

i like what Embree is saying, but fact is we are a terrible football team. can we dig out of the hole that keeps getting deeper, i don't know.

edit: Paul Wulff is a good example? of being bad. they have been cadillac to ashtray as fast as we have in a decade. BCS bowl a decade ago and sub .500 for a while.

 

[rynobuff]

Mike Gundy is a man.

Randy Shannon was a player and then later the head coach of the University of Miami, Florida.
Ralph Friedgen was a player and then later the head coach at the University of Maryland.

fify

 

[BuffNut99]

Randy Shannon was a player and then later the head coach of the University of Miami, Florida.
Ralph Friedgen was a player and then later an appliance.

fify

 

[skibum]

edit: Paul Wulff is a good example? of being bad. they have been cadillac to ashtray as fast as we have in a decade. BCS bowl a decade ago and sub .500 for a while.

Wulff is interesting, because his is a very similar situation to Embree's. 9/10ths of the crash happened under the guy before him, but now they are very slowly getting better - 1 additional win each year. I think it's a steeper hill to climb at WSU to build a winner than it is at Boulder, so I would expect a slower progression there than here. I mean seriously, which situation would you rather recruit to: a team with a 1-10 record that is a perennial loser in a podunk town a million miles from anything, or a team with a 2-10 record (I still think we pull one more out this year) that has a winning tradition and is in Boulder? So yes, the jury is still out on Wulff, but I don't think people with more than two brain cells to rub together would say "complete failure" - He's four years in, only has 3 wins, and people in Pullman aren't as riled up calling for his head as some people around here already are in their criticisms of Embree after 0.615 seasons (I added up Embree's seasons twice, just to be sure I was right in my belief that he really hasn't coached our team all that long).

 

[Mick Ronson]

Wulff is interesting, because his is a very similar situation to Embree's. 9/10ths of the crash happened under the guy before him, but now they are very slowly getting better - 1 additional win each year. I think it's a steeper hill to climb at WSU to build a winner than it is at Boulder, so I would expect a slower progression there than here. I mean seriously, which situation would you rather recruit to: a team with a 1-10 record that is a perennial loser in a podunk town a million miles from anything, or a team with a 2-10 record (I still think we pull one more out this year) that has a winning tradition and is in Boulder? So yes, the jury is still out on Wulff, but I don't think people with more than two brain cells to rub together would say "complete failure" - He's four years in, only has 3 wins, and people in Pullman aren't as riled up calling for his head as some people around here already are in their criticisms of Embree after 0.615 seasons (I added up Embree's seasons twice, just to be sure I was right in my belief that he really hasn't coached our team all that long).

let's say WSU or CU hired someone with a proven record (Jim Donnan, a guy who like every UGA coach gets axed for winning 70% of his games)...in 03 instead of thinking you have to replace Larry Doba from inside the Mike Price nostalgia).

i feel the same way about Colorado. i like to watch the youtube videos from the the 90's as much as the next guy....but let's move on.

Wulff has been the coach of one of the worst D-1 team for many years. that's not what i want for Colorado. fail to see the argument. WSU was in the Rose Bowl in 2002. they won 3 games in 4 years or something (and beat CU at home this year, sure).

how many coordinators, OC and DC, is CU gonna first time? that's bad. learn on the job and nostalgia.....?

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

let's say WSU or CU hired someone with a proven record (Jim Donnan, a guy who like every UGA coach gets axed for winning 70% of his games)...in 03 instead of thinking you have to replace Larry Doba from inside the Mike Price nostalgia).

i feel the same way about Colorado. i like to watch the youtube videos from the the 90's as much as the next guy....but let's move on.

Wulff has been the coach of one of the worst D-1 team for many years. that's not what i want for Colorado. fail to see the argument. WSU was in the Rose Bowl in 2002. they won 3 games in 4 years or something (and beat CU at home this year, sure).

how many coordinators, OC and DC, is CU gonna first time? that's bad. learn on the job and nostalgia.....?

The last coordinator CU hired turned out pretty well. His name was Bill McCartney.


Since then??

Rick Neuheisel -- not a coordinator anywhere, anytime when CU hired him.
Gary Barnett -- had been a coordinator at CU, but was head coach at Northwestern when CU hired him.
Dan Hawkins -- had been a coordinator, but was head coach at Boise State when CU hired him.
Jon Embree -- not a coordinator anywhere, anytime when CU hired him.

There were certainly some coordinators who were available when CU hired Embree.
Plenty of people interested in the OC at Wisconsin, as well as the OC at Alabama.


Or were you referring to Greg Brown / Eric Bieniemy being 1st time coordinators?

 

[slider]

I can't remember the last coordinator CU fans were actually happy with