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Montez vs Apsay vs Liufau

patebuff said:
Sefo is limited in what he can do and this won't change. I think most of us thought he would take a step forward this year, but ultimately he did not. I also think the staff went into the season thinking Sefo had taken a step forward, therefore opened the playbook up and wanted longer developing plays, that could result in big yards. That was a disaster at the beginning of the season, especially the Hawaii game. They then went back to the short/quick passing plays that Sefo can be successful at.

You can be successful team with a Sefo type quarterback, but need a 2001/2002 type team around him to do it.
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This is my whole point.

There are plenty of QBs who are better than Sefo, some who are worse. The two questions that apply are 1. How much of the performance is Sefo and how much is his supporting cast and 2. How many of those other QBs would make this CU a much better team? Some would certainly give us a few more wins but how many would make us even a bowl team, how about a team going to a decent bowl?

Fans love to focus on the QB which is natural, he is the guy who handles the ball the most but I don't see many QBs that would make this team what some fans think it should be.
 
SDBuff said:
Sefo will likely leave as the leading passer of all time....yet he has NEVER been a clutch performer. We keep harping on the OL, DL, etal....but the reality is that Sefo has NEVER been instrumental in a win....yet has committed horrendous turnovers that have either destroyed momentum or an opportunithy to win. Bottom line is that he has won exactly two Pac 12 games....many games we were either ahead or close and he was not able to close the deal. He is what he is....the pick right before the half pretty much sums up his career at CU...instead of scoring and closing the gap giving the team momentum, he makes an unforced awful throw for a pick...right after the defense came off the field after a long drive..... He may be the best option....but we know he has not nor probably never will be able to close the deal. He was not even very good against Nicholls.... Oklahoma State pulled teh redshirt of thier frosh QB at the end of the year last year....and now OK state is undefeated with that QB....gotta know what we have...this season is done....if we would have redshirted Sefo that would have meant exactly what? That we have a turnover machine for another year? if the FROSH is as good as they say....pull the shirt and FIND OUT NOW..... MM may not survive to see if in fact he is...and you can ONLY make that call with REAL games.
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I agree with this post...just wonder about pulling a RS. This could go poorly and kill his confidence...but on the other hand...Sefo simply can't win games for us and why not try something different since what he have is clearly not working?

I really don't get those who argue that "he's the best we have"...is he really? We haven't tried Montez and Aspay has been used sparingly. Sure he's best in practice...but that doesn't seem to translate to the field when the game is on the line. This argument seems to boil down "doing the same thing over and over expecting different results". Sefo has proven he doesn't have clutch in his DNA, so let's try something...anything...to win a ****ing game. We can try this after we lose Friday and the bowl chances are gone...what will have to lose then?
 
Bufffan68 said:
I agree with this post...just wonder about pulling a RS. This could go poorly and kill his confidence...but on the other hand...Sefo simply can't win games for us and why not try something different since what he have is clearly not working?

I really don't get those who argue that "he's the best we have"...is he really? We haven't tried Montez and Aspay has been used sparingly. Sure he's best in practice...but that doesn't seem to translate to the field when the game is on the line. This argument seems to boil down "doing the same thing over and over expecting different results". Sefo has proven he doesn't have clutch in his DNA, so let's try something...anything...to win a ****ing game. We can try this after we lose Friday and the bowl chances are gone...what will have to lose then?
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This whole thing of "wasting" a redshirt is nonsense. If Montez is all that...and is that good...he would be gone after his Junior year. If he is not...well...we wasted an opportunity to get his some CRITICAL experience before next season. Did pulling the RS on Sefo affect him? I think not. He was better than the Senior and performed as such.... He has reached his potential...and that is being okay....making plays when the pressure is not intense....but ****s the bed when a first down or TD is a must. He is a good guy....great competitor.....just does not have that "it" in his makeup. Many other schools are starting true frosh.....UCLA amongst them. Are they worried about burning his RS? Come on, Mike...your job is on the line and you need to pull out all the stops. I am personally tired of "next year is the year"....been doing it for a decade.
 
MtnBuff said:
This is my whole point.

There are plenty of QBs who are better than Sefo, some who are worse. The two questions that apply are 1. How much of the performance is Sefo and how much is his supporting cast and 2. How many of those other QBs would make this CU a much better team? Some would certainly give us a few more wins but how many would make us even a bowl team, how about a team going to a decent bowl?

Fans love to focus on the QB which is natural, he is the guy who handles the ball the most but I don't see many QBs that would make this team what some fans think it should be.
Click to expand...
Great question.

I am not real sure what O CU runs, we were told it was going to be the Pistol long ago, but it looks like some spread/pro style hybrid to me. Whatever it is, enough zone read is there to require a dual threat guy to make a real difference. So in answer to your question: Travis Wilson, Anu Solomon, Vernon Adams. That is limiting my self just to the P12. Of course this is all rank speculation, but if CU had one of those guys under center do you truly believe CU would only have 4 W's at this point? I don't.
 
leftybuff said:
Great question.

I am not real sure what O CU runs, we were told it was going to be the Pistol long ago, but it looks like some spread/pro style hybrid to me. Whatever it is, enough zone read is there to require a dual threat guy to make a real difference. So in answer to your question: Travis Wilson, Anu Solomon, Vernon Adams. That is limiting my self just to the P12. Of course this is all rank speculation, but if CU had one of those guys under center do you truly believe CU would only have 4 W's at this point? I don't.
Click to expand...

I think CU would have more wins but not a lot more wins, yes we might be looking at a bottom feeder bowl game but until our team is able to compete on the LOS no QB is going to make us anything close to a division contender.
 
leftybuff said:
I would take a bottom feeder bowl right now, who wouldn't?
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I would prefer it to the suck we are now but that's not where I want us to be. That's the issue with Leach as a HC. He will get you to some minor bowls but his ceiling is low. A minor bowl would be advancing for us but I want a program that is in the top 25 or higher.

You can argue that we might have more wins that we do with a different QB but you could also argue that Sefo would have more wins with a different OL and team around him. It's a circular argument.
 
MtnBuff said:
I would prefer it to the suck we are now but that's not where I want us to be. That's the issue with Leach as a HC. He will get you to some minor bowls but his ceiling is low. A minor bowl would be advancing for us but I want a program that is in the top 25 or higher.

You can argue that we might have more wins that we do with a different QB but you could also argue that Sefo would have more wins with a different OL and team around him. It's a circular argument.
Click to expand...
True. I don't want the Pirate here, either. My point is that CU needs an upgrade at QB. If they got a playmaker, it could jumpstart the program the way RGIII got Baylor rolling. Sefo is not that playmaker. I have to say I am disappointed this staff apparently has no one better to turn to in year three, let's hope they do for year four (assuming that happens).
 
leftybuff said:
True. I don't want the Pirate here, either. My point is that CU needs an upgrade at QB. If they got a playmaker, it could jumpstart the program the way RGIII got Baylor rolling. Sefo is not that playmaker. I have to say I am disappointed this staff apparently has no one better to turn to in year three, let's hope they do for year four (assuming that happens).
Click to expand...

I would love it if we had a difference maker at QB, you are right it would jumpstart the program. Probably not as much as some people think because the rest of the team is a limiting factor but yes it would help.

Knowing that and getting one of those guys are two different things. Every school in the country wants one (or more) there aren't very many. Even schools like Bama and LSU end up playing game managers with championship type teams.

What strikes me as ridiculous is the idea that we have one of those guys sitting on the bench while Sefo plays, we don't. Based on reports Montez has the potential to be better QB than Sefo is for us, I hope so. I doubt he is that now. My fear is that throwing him in before he is ready will lead to him becoming another Sefo, a guy who plays like he expects to get hit on every play, a guy who won't or can't wait for the third read or the slower developing pattern to open. The guy who plays like he expects something bad to happen. Can't be proven for or against but I believe that Sefo would be a different QB if he had been allowed to develop normally rather than been thrown into the fire early.
 
leftybuff said:
True. I don't want the Pirate here, either. My point is that CU needs an upgrade at QB. If they got a playmaker, it could jumpstart the program the way RGIII got Baylor rolling. Sefo is not that playmaker. I have to say I am disappointed this staff apparently has no one better to turn to in year three, let's hope they do for year four (assuming that happens).
Click to expand...
Did rg3 play behind a similar oline?
 
MtnBuff said:
I would love it if we had a difference maker at QB, you are right it would jumpstart the program. Probably not as much as some people think because the rest of the team is a limiting factor but yes it would help.

Knowing that and getting one of those guys are two different things. Every school in the country wants one (or more) there aren't very many. Even schools like Bama and LSU end up playing game managers with championship type teams.

What strikes me as ridiculous is the idea that we have one of those guys sitting on the bench while Sefo plays, we don't. Based on reports Montez has the potential to be better QB than Sefo is for us, I hope so. I doubt he is that now. My fear is that throwing him in before he is ready will lead to him becoming another Sefo, a guy who plays like he expects to get hit on every play, a guy who won't or can't wait for the third read or the slower developing pattern to open. The guy who plays like he expects something bad to happen. Can't be proven for or against but I believe that Sefo would be a different QB if he had been allowed to develop normally rather than been thrown into the fire early.
Click to expand...
I hear what you are saying, and I don't know if Montez is the next great one or not, I hope so, but I really have no idea. I wonder aloud about the narrative Sefo was "ruined", how could you possibly know that? Maybe he was, maybe his lack of vision and slow reads are who he is, I don't know how any of us could possibly know one way or the other.
 
Burrito Palazzo said:
Did rg3 play behind a similar oline?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think so...2008, RGIII first year, Baylor was pre-season 92d out of 120. Went 4-8 RGIII's first two seasons. Not the hallmark of high caliber talent....but his presence was the beginning of the upswing of talent because other good players wanted to be there too. That is the point.
 
leftybuff said:
Yeah, I think so...2008, RGIII first year, Baylor was pre-season 92d out of 120. Went 4-8 RGIII's first two seasons. Not the hallmark of high caliber talent....but his presence was the beginning of the upswing of talent because other good players wanted to be there too. That is the point.
Click to expand...
So the solution is to find a once a decade type talent?
 
Burrito Palazzo said:
So the solution is to find a once a decade type talent?
Click to expand...
It's one solution. Who knows, RGIII was recruited by everyone but BU as a DB or ATH. I had a nephew who played against him while RGIII was at Copperas Grove. Anybody with eyes knew that kid had "it", but coaches couldn't get over the idea he was an ATH, not a QB. Only Briles rolled the dice. I wonder if there is anybody we can think of who fits a similar mold and wants a shot at QB? Hmmm, Dymond Lee?
 
leftybuff said:
It's one solution. Who knows, RGIII was recruited by everyone but BU as a DB or ATH. I had a nephew who played against him while RGIII was at Copperas Grove. Anybody with eyes knew that kid had "it", but coaches couldn't get over the idea he was an ATH, not a QB. Only Briles rolled the dice. I wonder if there is anybody we can think of who fits a similar mold and wants a shot at QB? Hmmm, Dymond Lee?
Click to expand...
Seems like a reasonable gamble.
 
patebuff said:
Sefo is limited in what he can do and this won't change. I think most of us thought he would take a step forward this year, but ultimately he did not. I also think the staff went into the season thinking Sefo had taken a step forward, therefore opened the playbook up and wanted longer developing plays, that could result in big yards. That was a disaster at the beginning of the season, especially the Hawaii game. They then went back to the short/quick passing plays that Sefo can be successful at.

You can be successful team with a Sefo type quarterback, but need a 2001/2002 type team around him to do it.
Click to expand...
Which part has he been successful at?
 
If Apsay is being relegated to backup (which I think is a mistake) then shouldn't he still get more than 5 pass attempts per 6 games? I still don't buy the theory that he isn't that good. What helps a QB behind a bad o-line? Quick release and accuracy, 2 things that Sefo doesn't have. How many of our opponents crowd the line, blitz and stunt because they KNOW that even if a WR gets open deep, and IF Sefo notices, there's only a 20-30% chance he'll hit them anyways, and 15-20% of those attempts are going to be picks? I'd take those odds as a d-coordinator.

Give Apsay the 2nd half of U$C. All of it. And don't pussy out on the play calling because of it. - should probably give him a chunk of the practice snaps with the 1s this week, too.

Maybe if he hits some WRs on slants (like he did vs. Stanford) and drops a few deep balls accurately, he doesn't get hit as much as Sefo?

If he throws 4 picks and goes 10 - 46, then we know what we have. Anyone who thinks there's anything left to play for this season is delusional at best.
 
Much more likely to see Montez early next season if Mac returns IMO. Mac would be coaching for his job, so it's hail mary time - he'll want to use his prize QB if he's close to being ready.

A new coach would have the luxury of more time and may go with the senior QB until Montez is truly ready to play.
 
It's really hard to do any kind of comparison as mentioned in the OP since we don't get to see anyone but Sefo play in meaningful gametime. It'd be nice to see what we have when the game is still within reach.
 
ZandiBuff said:
If Apsay is being relegated to backup (which I think is a mistake) then shouldn't he still get more than 5 pass attempts per 6 games? I still don't buy the theory that he isn't that good. What helps a QB behind a bad o-line? Quick release and accuracy, 2 things that Sefo doesn't have. How many of our opponents crowd the line, blitz and stunt because they KNOW that even if a WR gets open deep, and IF Sefo notices, there's only a 20-30% chance he'll hit them anyways, and 15-20% of those attempts are going to be picks? I'd take those odds as a d-coordinator.

Give Apsay the 2nd half of U$C. All of it. And don't ***** out on the play calling because of it. - should probably give him a chunk of the practice snaps with the 1s this week, too.

Maybe if he hits some WRs on slants (like he did vs. Stanford) and drops a few deep balls accurately, he doesn't get hit as much as Sefo?

If he throws 4 picks and goes 10 - 46, then we know what we have. Anyone who thinks there's anything left to play for this season is delusional at best.
Click to expand...

Yes. It is delusional to still play for a bowl game when you need three to be eligible and you have three games remaining.

How about you wait until Saturday morning when we are mathematically eliminated from bowl consideration before you determine we have nothing left to play for.
 
Sefo has been decent but has yet to show the strides many of us thought he was capable this year. He clearly wants to do well, perhaps pushes too much when the pressure is on.
So, many here clamor for the backup. I think we have seen there may be good reason the backup isn't playing.
As for Montez, I see lots of hype based on him prior to CU. Who's to say there isn't a good reason coaches are leaving the RS on him. Maybe in practice he is not showing grasp of offense, throwing ball at right time to the right receiver. I have no idea what is or isn't going on. Hard to speculate though.
 
Shldr2Shldr said:
Yes. It is delusional to still play for a bowl game when you need three to be eligible and you have three games remaining.

How about you wait until Saturday morning when we are mathematically eliminated from bowl consideration before you determine we have nothing left to play for.
Click to expand...

Because I have watched CU football for the past 10 years.
 
This thread reminds me of the argument I had in chat a few games ago with an enthusiast who insisted that I was out of line for saying that 4.8 yard per pass attempt or whatever sub-5 number he was through three quarters was atrocious.

The guy can't consistently hit short passes and he consistently can't hit deep ones. He isn't an accurate passer and he doesn't have the qualities that make up for it (big play potential, rushing threat, takes care of the football (lol), etc.). He isn't good, he isn't OK, he isn't decent, he isn't mediocre... he's well below average. That's just how it is.
 
I see no downsides of getting Dymond Lee here and giving him a very, very serious chance to play QB. Maybe he is a Randall type player for us, maybe he becomes even more for CU. I don't see why we don't do that. There is not enough talent on the QB ranks to NOT do that. Until the OL gets much better I want a QB that can scare defenses with his ability to run and improvise.
 
I think it would be wise to give Apsay some serious PT the rest of the way. Let Liufau start against USC and see where that goes.
If he is not perofrming, sit his butt down for three games, let his hurt shoulder heal, and let's see what Apsay can do.
 
Your
darth-horax said:
I think it would be wise to give Apsay some serious PT the rest of the way. Let Liufau start against USC and see where that goes.
If he is not perofrming, sit his butt down for three games, let his hurt shoulder heal, and let's see what Apsay can do.
Click to expand...

Your wish....is granted. And the genie used a sense of irony in using the same injury that Grant Wantennabe had.
 
Will be interesting to see how Apsay does with the pressure of being the starter now. Backups tend to have solid games when they all the sudden come in unexpectedly with no pressure.
 
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