Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by MCskid, Jan 16, 2015.
I'm not, the NCAA is a joke, even a place that has a child molester on staff will get kid gloves treatment if they are a big enough player. I will always hold special contempt for PSU as an institution because of that. I do not believe JoePa, and probably others did not know what was going on.
Wow, just wow.
As I posted on the Rivals board:
I still fail to see the correlation between what happened with Sandusky and the NCAAs responsibility to ensure fair competition through compliance with the rules. Penn State deserved a ton of pain for what it allowed, but did not violate any rules regarding NCAA athletics and certainly did not gain a competitive advantage.
Also noted on that board (hat tip to rward), Penn State will be donating $60 million to programs designed to prevent child abuse as part of this agreement.
Seems like a smart and fair way to settle this.
I assure you, if it was not as high profile a school, the death penalty would have been served.
Joe Paterno rots in hell.
The NCAA did not have jurisdiction on what was a legal matter. Joe may very well be rotting in hell, but this was never an NCAA issue. NCAA is settling this and giving in because it had no leg to stand on. Penn State is paying $60MM to help with the PR issue (I don't believe for a second that they offered that out of moral goodness).
I don't want the NCAA punishing programs for non-violations of the rules that are violations of moral decency or are legal issues. We know the NCAA is incompetent. We do not want that organization to have Roger Goodell powers.
you ain't a buff, is ya?
I'm pretty sure nik went to....oh I see.
You are correct...technically, but I actually applauded the NCAA when they hammered Penn State. There are numerous examples where the people at the highest level of the University either disregarded or swept the warnings under the rug, allowing the continued horrific acts of abuse from Sandusky. All in the name of the all powerful football team. The personally responsible parties are dealing with the fallout, but I believe from a moral stand point that the only way to really show that protecting the football program no matter the cost could lead to ultimate ruin is by such severe punishment.
this... that said the damage has already been done to Paterno's legacy, he will be forever tainted by this...Which is why his family is still suing
Considering the significant likelihood the entire penalty was vacated in litigation, I'm glad it's settling out this way. The penalties were financial, scholarship/post-season, and vacating wins. Vacating wins is the most bull**** penalty you can imagine. It means nothing. The NCAA here is giving up nothing to ensure that the real penalty, the 60 million, remains in place. Whether or not Paterno is in the record book with 400 or 300 wins doesn't mean ****. Everyone knows he enabled a pedophile for years, and that will be his legacy, not whether he is 2nd or 22nd on the all-time wins list.
PSU bounced back from their scandal in a couple of years. Wish I could say the same for CU and our "scandal". 10 years later and we are still trying to recover.
I've never understood, well, I mean, I understand, but just think taking away wins is stupid and useless. But since you can take them away and give them back, then they must be tangible things. Like, you know, things you keep in a basket or something. So, all CU has to do is find that basket full of wins and, you know, just take some of them. Is there a person in charge of this basket of wins? Can we bribe him or something? Maybe this guy could give us 5 wins for last year or something.
I wish we played in the B1G sometimes. Winning would be so much easier.
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Tell that to Oregon. :smile2:
PSU did not necessarily gain a competitive advantage but they did gain an advantage for a long period of time by keeping the Sandusky issue swept under the rug. Now they are tainted forever but for a long time the fantasy of the clean program in Happy Valley generated millions for them.
CUBuff80 is correct. You can argue jurisdiction all you want but if this was a low profile school they may still not be playing football.
BuffedUp hit is on the head as well. The NCAA is there to "protect competition" but they justify their role by saying that they are also there to protect the participants and those around the programs. The simple fact is that any organization that works with young people has an obligation to protect young people. The NCAA also has an obligation to protect the image of college sports and the member institutions as a whole.
The simple fact that Paterno was able to sweep the whole thing under the rug, able to order the campus police off the case, able to tell the university president how they would handle (or not handle) the situation clearly show a "lack of institutional control" that resulted in the rape of children and the damaging of college sports in general.
I said it then and say it now. Penn State should have gotten the death penalty. Of course lawyers would have been involved and the NCAA would have had to defend it's position. Put the case in front of a jury and the national media and try to make a case that raping children should be ignored so Penn State Football can sell tickers and get awards. The damage to Penn States reputation from that argument would be greater than that of getting the death penalty.
Instead they now get to ignore the fact that their hero could have stopped a monster and didn't because he thought it would make a football program look bad. They get to argue that they were unjustly singled out.
Go to h*** PSU and the NCAA for playing along with them.
Legally, Paterno was actually praised by the court. Court of public opinion is a different animal, though.
But what we have here is:
Former employee of the football program committed a felony that was witnessed by an assistant coach, the head coach was informed, the head coach reported the info to superiors and university legal counsel... and the NCAA decided that it was an issue within its purview for some unfathomable reason and proceeded to threaten the death penalty to strong arm the PSU program into accepting scholarship losses, a huge fine, a bowl ban, and over 100 past wins being vacated.
It's ok to believe that raping children is among the worst crimes imaginable, that Paterno was more than a football coach at PSU so should have done much more... and still believe that the NCAA had zero business getting involved or issuing a punishment.
It's also okay to believe that any punishment doled out to an institution that allowed what they did is just fine and dandy, not to mention that the university agreed to the consent decree and a federal judge refused to rule that it was illegal.
Now, they seem to have accepted some responsibility by agreeing to the $60 million donation (a drop in the bucket of their endowment), but there's also a lot of complete nonsense like Penn St'ers who still defend JoePa's handling of Sandusky and the bs that the state senator spews: "The fact of the matter was, an evil predator operated in our community for years and everyone missed it," Corman said. These latest events serve to bolster these delusions and diminish the scorn deserved by all involved.
Sandusky wasn't missed, his actions simply weren't acted upon by those who cared more for their reputations than the lives of innocent children.
The decision to vacate the wins was nearly two and a half years old, so it comes as no surprise that Penn State completely ****ed it.
None of that makes it an NCAA matter. I don't disagree with anything except that. I think it's very important not to allow desire to see PSU pay to cause us to grant precedent and jurisdiction where it does not exist. It's easy for us to race down that slippery slope when the incident is especially horrible.
Penn State commentary starts at 2:03
But the university did just that when it agreed to the consent decree.
Claiming they were compelled under undue pressure by the threat of the death penalty for the program which the head of the NCAA lied to PSU about (claiming he had the votes when reports are that it was informally 19-2 against). Seems that the PSU claim on this has merit based on the fact that the NCAA completely folded in the settlement.
I'm glad the ncca did it originally of only because of the media fallout. The ncaa had no jurisdiction and it doesn't clear what paterno, and certainly not Sandusky, did. At 60MM within the state of Pennsylvania it will hopefully stop abuse or potential abuse of children.
wow. some interesting mental gymnastics going on here. this was the most heinous crime in the history of collegiate athletics. were not taking about boosters setting up a slush fund to pay for hookers and blow, graduating football players that can't read or covering up murder on a drug deal gone bad. this was the rape of children.
why is taking away the wins important? the old man was obsessed with becoming the winningest coach in history and this obsession led him to cover it up. in 2002 an asst. coach saw the a-hole sexualy assaulting a kid in the ped state shower, he told the old man and ...nothing happened. a-hole continued to use the ped state football facilities to rape kids and until what '09, '10, '11? how old was the old man in '02, mid 70's? he knew that if this had come to light that he would have been fired, thus ending his goal to be the coach with the most wins. the only logical conclusion a rational person can come to(unless your nadia comaneci) is that the old man and the uni not only condoned it but were accomplices to it. i agree that taking away wins is usually meaningless but not in this case.
now let's do a little thought exercise and make this personal. nik, suppose you were unable to escape what ever two bit po-dunk town ped state is in. let's say it's '05 and this a-hole raped your kid. if the old man would have done the right thing your kid(and countless other kids) would have been saved. sex is one of the most powerful forces in nature, it has the ability to create life and destroy it. these kids will never be the same. would you still think that reinstating the wins would "seem fair"?
now let's pretend this happened at dear old cu, shall we? what would have been outcome? somewhere between a two year self imposed death penalty to the complete shuttering of the football program. you could make the case that either one of these outcomes was not only justified but correct.
it never ceases to amaze me what people will overlook when it comes to almighty football.
and as far as the bs about wether or not the ncaa had the legal authority to do anything about it. as long as they got the law firm with the best supreme court practice then they would have legal authority. if ped state got the law firm with the best supreme court practice, then no they would not have legal authority.
peace out all buffers, mike c/catura
and now for something completely different! backland or khion? which slipper will you boys be rockin' next winter? me, i'm leaning towards the backland. light and huge rom. and it's mostly about the uphill, ain't it? but hoji is claiming that the khion is the sh*t. and lord know we all want to make turns like hoji!
[MENTION=1712]MCskid[/MENTION] I don't question for a second that PSU actions were evil. I worry for our society when I read that PSU got a record number of undergrad applicants this year after a dip last year. I look at where PSU is in the recruiting ranks and it blows my mind. I hear the PSU faithful believing that this vindicates Joe Pa and wanting the statue re-erected & it sickens me. I have literally cried over thoughts that children suffered abuse not only because of a sick individual but because an organization was more concerned with avoiding a black eye for itself than avoiding the rape of kids.But none of that makes this an NCAA compliance issue.
Kuddos to McSkid for not losing perspective on this thing over time.
JoPa wasn't some nice old man caught up in something he didn't understand. He was the guy who called the shots including being given free reign over anything football related by the school president and chancellor. If he didn't know that Sandusky was an evil predator then he was trying very hard not to know. Regardless he should never have had the authority to tell the campus police how to handle the situation.
If this is not an example of lack of institutional control then I have never seen one.
The NCAA is a spineless bunch of *******s. If Pedo State thinks that the NCAA shouldn't have the authority to regulate the member institutions regarding the safety of people associated with college sports then make them go to court, open court, and make that case.
Put every filthy, slimy detail into the court record and the court of public opinion. Let Pedo State air all their dirty laundry, let them explain to the public why they let a sexual parasite keep an on-campus office and bring his victims on campus to be abused.
They very well might have won the cases but their image would have taken a beating that would have cost them much more in the long term.
Somehow, someway when these things happen the message has to be made very clear that football and the money involved with it is not more important than the human lives damaged and destroyed.
The NCAA has set itself up as almost a quasi governmental organization. Their message over and over again has been leave it to us and we will handle it in the best interest of the young people. Now the single most important event in their history regarding the safety of young people comes up and the crumble and go limp like a saltine in a bowl of chicken noodle soup.
I worry for our society when people are able rationalize away kids getting raped because the ncaa didn't have the foresight to make it against their rules to rape kids.
I worry when a school gets more of a punishment for letting walk ons buy discounted meals than a school gets for raping kids.
nik, i'm glad you got your wins back, they seem to mean a lot to you. i'd like a straight up answer, if it had been your kid who had got raped would you still want the wins back?
thanks for the shout out there mtnbuff, something about kids getting raped and people not taking it seriously that p*sses me the f**k off.
My wins? I couldn't give a ****.
I'd also assume that if my kid was raped I'd have a lot more important things to worry about than what it said for a win total on wikipedia.
Good to know that you don't believe in grandfather clauses. How very un-American of you. Let's find other cases where we can bust people for breaking rules that weren't rules at the time they broke them. Let's also find other cases where we can grant punitive authority and jurisdiction to organizations to punish things that weren't against their rules or within their purview. Because, you know, some things are just really bad and we should just throw away all sense to make sure that someone, anyone, can stack on some extra punishment beyond what those who actually have authority and cause can do.
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