PAC-16/atlantic pod?

[sackman]

why are you trying to convince us that geography is more important than population. This is about media markets not natural resources. The biggest media markets are back east only 2 of the top 10 and 6 of the top 25 are in the current PAC:12 footprint, basically anything west of the Colorado/Kansas border.

If you can take Texas, then you add two more to the top 10.

All the media markets out East are taken. We'd be picking over scraps. Let everybody else beat each other up for a piece of the market out there. We control our markets completely. I have no interest in adding Texas, OU, KU, or any other school not currently in our league. It's not just geography. It's market share and compatability. We simply aren't compatable with Texas or OU, and those are the only two schools that would bring anything to the table. So why even have the discussion? It's not worth having. UT is off the table. Scott tried, failed, and has said he's not interested in trying again. The longwhorn network is a non-starter, and they're not willing to give it up. OU is a non-starter. They don't want to leave, in the first place, and they wouldn't want to go anywhere without OSU and UT. Again - UT is a non-starter. So is OSU for that matter. All this ridiculous talk about Scott being "forced" to expand is idiotic. He's not being forced to do anything.

 

[SuperiorBuff]

^^^^^^Additionally, the future growth in TV markets will predominantly occur within the existing PAC 12 footprint. They will come to us.

 

[sackman]

^^^^^^Additionally, the future growth in TV markets will predominantly occur within the existing PAC 12 footprint. They will come to us.

Absolutely. Strangely enough, I *could* see the potential for expansion into New Mexico if the Albuquerque/Santa Fe market gets much bigger. The only reason to do that would be to wrap up that market before the B12 comes calling. UNM has a solid basketball program, and although their football program stinks on ice, they're the only game in town down there. IF there's expansion (and that's a HUGE "IF") it won't be into the Central Time Zone, IMO. It'll be a defensive move to keep the B12 an SEC out of the Pac 12 markets.

 

[92Buff]

It may sicken you, but I have a hard time believing Scott is just sitting on his hands. I do not want to see us go to 16 - but it sure looks like this is where it will end up when all is said and done. The Pac cannot afford to be the last to the game with no revenue-impacting schools remaining in the Mountain or Pacific time zones.

JMH(and un-educated)O - I still believe in the end ND will tell the Big 10 to **** off in the end. If adding big markets could mean more financially than they can get on their own they will join a conference. I think they showed that they like their ties to Stanford and USC more than some of the Big 10 so why wouldn't Scott be talking to them.

I hate Texass as much as anyone (and clearly understand the crapload of baggage that they drag along), but aTm proved they can leave the others behind...so why wouldn't Texass entertain a discussion if the longhorn wasn't doing as well as they would like. In the end, Texass will take care of Texass and screw the rest of them and they will ultimately blow up the Big XII.

So...I would expect that ND and Texass are Scott's top priorities/dream if there were any expansion discussions...(just threw up in my mouth)

 

[tante]

All the media markets out East are taken. We'd be picking over scraps. Let everybody else beat each other up for a piece of the market out there. We control our markets completely. I have no interest in adding Texas, OU, KU, or any other school not currently in our league. It's not just geography. It's market share and compatability. We simply aren't compatable with Texas or OU, and those are the only two schools that would bring anything to the table. So why even have the discussion? It's not worth having. UT is off the table. Scott tried, failed, and has said he's not interested in trying again. The longwhorn network is a non-starter, and they're not willing to give it up. OU is a non-starter. They don't want to leave, in the first place, and they wouldn't want to go anywhere without OSU and UT. Again - UT is a non-starter. So is OSU for that matter. All this ridiculous talk about Scott being "forced" to expand is idiotic. He's not being forced to do anything.

wasn't the Denver media market already "taken" by the Big 12 when the Pac:12 picked up Colorado? We aren't looking for $5 million people without a team to cheer for just hoping some conference picks them up. This is about expanding your footprint and building a brand.

Look we already know that Scott wanted to expand, so why do you think that he changed his mind all of the sudden?

 

[sackman]

Look we already know that Scott wanted to expand, so why do you think that he changed his mind all of the sudden?

Because he said so.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-pac-12-expansion-20121119,0,768077.story?track=rss

 

[tante]

Because he said so.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-pac-12-expansion-20121119,0,768077.story?track=rss

very interesting. I wonder if he said something similar before he added Colorado and Utah.

 

[Buff_since76]

The reason we didn't already expand to 16 is Texas won't give up the Long Horn Network. They want that, and feel they deserve it. If (and I do mean "IF") the PAC ever looks at expanding I think they would only look west of the Mississippi River. There would be two others conditions that must be met:

1. Will the addition of the team increase revenues for everyone
2. Will the additional teams meet the academic/social ideals of the conference

Many people try to throw in how competitive the program is, and I think that factor is a minor factor as programs can improve/decline after joining the new conference. In using the above factors the following teams get eliminated

For the small market impact:
TCU
UNLV
SDSU
Fresno State
Hawaii
Nevada
NMS
NM
SMU
Baylor
Wyoming
CSU
ISU
Tulsa
Houston

Academics impact:
Boise State
Kansas State
Texas Tech

Social reasons impact:
BYU
Baylor

This leaves the potential choices:
Texas
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Air Force (Most military academies do have a good following, but they are borderline on the social side)
Kansas (borderline small market)

In order to go to 16 I would think you have to do what all the other conferences are doing, and go to 14 first. Since Texas is the pain to deal with, I would think that Larry would have to add OU and OSU first. This would also put pressure for the ACC and Big XII to merge. After that the whole thing would depend on how much UT wants to keep LHN.

At this point the PAC would control the western US, and the other 3 conferences would split the east.

 

[Walter White]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding this issue as it relates to television and money. Money comes from advertising; advertising revenue is a function of ratings; ratings are driven by the popularity and demand of the product. It's the product, not the market.

Just because you have a school that is located in a certain big market, it does not mean that there is any demand for that product. For example, CU is now a P12 team, but the demand for a WSU/Arizona football game in Denver is still minimal, at best. Heck, the demand for CU football in its own market is small right now. What do you think that demand for CU football in other markets?

 

[tante]

This leaves the potential choices:
Texas
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Air Force (Most military academies do have a good following, but they are borderline on the social side)
Kansas (borderline small market)

In order to go to 16 I would think you have to do what all the other conferences are doing, and go to 14 first. Since Texas is the pain to deal with, I would think that Larry would have to add OU and OSU first. This would also put pressure for the ACC and Big XII to merge. After that the whole thing would depend on how much UT wants to keep LHN.

At this point the PAC would control the western US, and the other 3 conferences would split the east.

How is Oklahoma State not in the small market list. Stillwater is a small town that is over an hour from both Oklahoma City and Tulsa. It is very comparable to Fort Collins in terms of it's relation to Denver. I just don't know if the Big 12 is the right network to go after at this point, since they have appeared to have stabilized and have an insane buyout fee.

 

[tante]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding this issue as it relates to television and money. Money comes from advertising; advertising revenue is a function of ratings; ratings are driven by the popularity and demand of the product. It's the product, not the market.

Just because you have a school that is located in a certain big market, it does not mean that there is any demand for that product. Just because CU is a P12 team, the demand for a WSU/Arizona football game in Denver is still minimal, at best. Heck, the demand for CU football in its own market is small right now. What do you think that demand for CU football in other markets?

The PAC didn't want the Denver market because of CU, the PAC wanted the denver market because of the large amount of PAC school alumni that live in the metro area.

 

[boydbuff]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding this issue as it relates to television and money. Money comes from advertising; advertising revenue is a function of ratings; ratings are driven by the popularity and demand of the product. It's the product, not the market.

Just because you have a school that is located in a certain big market, it does not mean that there is any demand for that product. Just because CU is a P12 team, the demand for a WSU/Arizona football game in Denver is still minimal, at best. Heck, the demand for CU football in its own market is small right now. What do you think that demand for CU football in other markets?

Yes but as Buff_since articulated the quality of a team in a given year is not fixed over the medium term. Colorado sucks this year and has for a few years but sooner or later we will be competitive again. WSU sucks now but may turn it around sooner or later. Oregon State sucked but turned it around.

Furthermore, even when an average to below average team plays in the Pac 12, they regularly are playing teams with big followings which still leads to big ratings.

Having teams with big TV markets is critical and was a major factor in why the Pac 12 wanted CU-biggest following in the mountain states. Even though we are down now. Embree will be gone by 2013 at the latest and we will eventually rebound. When I don't know, but we will.

 

[Walter White]

The PAC didn't want the Denver market because of CU, the PAC wanted the denver market because of the large amount of PAC school alumni that live in the metro area.

If I am a USC or UW alum living in Denver, I am going to watch my team regardless if CU is in Pac or big 12.

 

[Walter White]

It's all about the product, not the market. The market will tune into watch the popular teams. If you are not a popular team, the geographical market makes no difference.

 

[tante]

If I am a USC or UW alum living in Denver, I am going to watch my team regardless if CU is in Pac or big 12.

yes but is your local cable provider going to carry the channel on tv if they are not in the same conference?

 

[Walter White]

yes but is your local cable provider going to carry the channel on tv if they are not in the same conference?

That's a good point, but I come back to the product. If my team sucks, my local cable provider will not carry my team. The local cable provider is not going to show WSU games in Denver. It doesn't matter that CU is now in the P12. If WSU was really good and kicking ass, then WSU might very well be shown in Denver, but CU being in the pac will have nothing to do with it. It's about the product. There is very little demand for a crappy product.

 

[Walter White]

yes but is your local cable provider going to carry the channel on tv if they are not in the same conference?

Take Texas as an example, CU moved to the Pac, but Texas games are still shown in Denver, same as ever.

 

[tante]

That's a good point, but I come back to the product. If my team sucks, my local cable provider will not carry my team. The local cable provider is not going to show WSU games in Denver. It doesn't matter that CU is now in the P12. If WSU was really good and kicking ass, then WSU might very well be shown in Denver, but CU being in the pac will have nothing to do with it.

that is not true, all tv cares about are eyeballs. I can't imagine Texas ever being as bad as CU, but they would still be on national tv if they were. Hell Notre Dame is always on tv and they were pretty bad a few years ago.

But I see your point as the better a team is the more eyeballs will be on the team.

 

[Walter White]

that is not true, all tv cares about are eyeballs. I can't imagine Texas ever being as bad as CU, but they would still be on national tv if they were. Hell Notre Dame is always on tv and they were pretty bad a few years ago.

But I see your point as the better a team is the more eyeballs will be on the team.

Yes, that's my whole point: eyeballs. You don't add a market, you add a team and the eyeballs for that team. Adding CU didn't add the Denver market to the Pac 12, it added CU fans. That's it. If you add Texas, you add UT demand, not state of texas demand.

 

[tante]

Yes, that's my whole point: eyeballs. You don't add a market, you add a team and the eyeballs for that team. Adding CU didn't add the Denver market to the Pac 12, it added CU fans. That's it. If you add Texas, you add UT demand, not state of texas demand.

I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, but it is not like everyone in Colorado is strictly a CU fan. CU has a ton of fans in California and PAC:12 teams have a ton of fans in Colorado, which is why it was such a good marriage. Lets face it, CU is not exactly hot **** here in Colorado so I don't think the PAC:12 really added Colorado just to get the small number of the fans that actually watch CU football on tv.

 

[superdeluxe]

seems like the 16 team super confrence era is upon us(not a fan by the way but oh well). looks like delaney is blowing up the acc to force nd to join the big 10. so nd and bc to the big 10. sec will add vt and ncst. can't see unc and uva wanting to hob knob with the likes of bama and ole miss. so what should the pac do? time to think outside the box and be really bold. add fsu,gt,unc and uva. huge new market, eastern time zone and we get to screw the big 12. add them as fb only or fb and bb. if a dumb guy like me with a degree from cu has thought of this you gotta think that the tennis pro in LA has.

Would work for football, too difficult for all other sports. And honestly that will never happen, unless Notre Dame got something up its butt and decided they want go head west, then I think Scott tries to figure out how to make that work..a Atlantic Pod would be the only way.

And for those that say there is no reason to expand. It is a Arms race. Yeah we make 20 million, but guess what, if the SEC and B1G make 40 million, then they are ahead of the arms race, and what does that bring? More money for assistant coaches, facilities, and the ability to improve other sports.

 

[Walter White]

I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, but it is not like everyone in Colorado is strictly a CU fan. CU has a ton of fans in California and PAC:12 teams have a ton of fans in Colorado, which is why it was such a good marriage. Lets face it, CU is not exactly hot **** here in Colorado so I don't think the PAC:12 really added Colorado just to get the small number of the fans that actually watch CU football on tv.

I hear you, but how did the Pac, by adding CU, "add" UW fans living in Denver? That's the part that I don't get. UW fans living in Denver are going to watch UW no matter if CU is in the Pac or not. How does that help the Pac? Are you saying that more UW games are on regular cable in Denver now because CU is in the Pac. I don't think that's true, but maybe it is.

Keep in mind, i'm not talking about the P12 network. That's a different discussion.

 

[tante]

I hear you, but how did the Pac, by adding CU, "add" UW fans living in Denver? That's the part that I don't get. UW fans living in Denver are going to watch UW no matter if CU is in the Pac or not. How does that help the Pac? Are you saying that more UW games are on regular cable in Denver now because CU is in the Pac. I don't think that's true, but maybe it is.

Keep in mind, i'm not talking about the P12 network. That's a different discussion.

whoa nobody is saying that a fan base is growing, I am saying that their available market in general grew as a whole. Let say for example there are 10,000 CU fans in Chicago, Boston, Miami, New York, Houston, Dallas, DC and Philly (I know huge stretch). So lets say there are 80k fans there. Now lets say in San Diego and LA there are also 80k CU fans there (which is probably likely). It is easier to target a congregated group of fans in LA when broadcast sporting events because you can do it regionally. Now the same can happen with the PAC:10. They can look and say there are 500k PAC:10 team fans living in the Denver metro area and that is a substantial increase in exposure. Are these new fans? no? Are these fans that can see their teams compete on a regular basis? hell yes. And you can't really pull the Pac12 network out because you know that was the plan from the start.

 

[Walter White]

whoa nobody is saying that a fan base is growing, I am saying that their available market in general grew as a whole. Let say for example there are 10,000 CU fans in Chicago, Boston, Miami, New York, Houston, Dallas, DC and Philly (I know huge stretch). So lets say there are 80k fans there. Now lets say in San Diego and LA there are also 80k CU fans there (which is probably likely). It is easier to target a congregated group of fans in LA when broadcast sporting events because you can do it regionally. Now the same can happen with the PAC:10. They can look and say there are 500k PAC:10 team fans living in the Denver metro area and that is a substantial increase in exposure. Are these new fans? no? Are these fans that can see their teams compete on a regular basis? hell yes. And you can't really pull the Pac12 network out because you know that was the plan from the start.

I'm still missing the final link in the logic. Let's stick with examples. Let's say there are 10,000 UW fans living in Denver. If the cable channels don't show UW games in Denver, then how did adding CU add more viewers of Pac games in the Denver market outside of CU fans watching CU games?

 

[tante]

I'm still missing the final link in the logic. Let's stick with examples. Let's say there are 10,000 UW fans living in Denver. If the cable channels don't show UW games in Denver, then how did adding CU add more viewers of Pac games in the Denver market outside of CU fans watching CU games?

I think that is the part you are missing Washington football is on TV here, just not on direct TV.