We now take you (one again) to State College, Pennsylvania.

[MiamiBuffs]

And the truth shall set you free; Funny how PSU's insurance provider feels that it should have to pay millions and millions in claims. And rightly so. Seems all these depositions are turning up more and more evidence of wrongdoing with knowledge of administrators. Who. Did. Nothing. Indemnification.

Thank god for our legal system and the daylight it sheds.

PSU is now going to have to pay out of pocket. And I bet some of these other victims that predate the current crop (late 90s, early 2000s) might now sue as well. Oops.

 

[TDforTD]

How ****ing cult like is it there where a kid who was being molested thought Joe Paterno was the right person to go to? Not the police or a teacher, but Joe Paterno. They put him on a pedestal because of football, and because of football, they failed those kids.

 

[BuffLuke80]

If you have learned anything over the years, it's not good to assume people are good people because you see them on tv and they say all the right things. So many examples here, won't even get into it.

 

[MtnBuff]

How ****ing cult like is it there where a kid who was being molested thought Joe Paterno was the right person to go to? Not the police or a teacher, but Joe Paterno. They put him on a pedestal because of football, and because of football, they failed those kids.

Anytime your final decision maker is the head football coach your university is messed up and the fans that support it are outside of reason. Pedo State, Free Shoes under Bowden, kNU under Osborne, and plenty more.

We all know that things are going to happen on college campuses. What is troubling is when those things are accepted and covered up by coaches and by the administrators who are supposed to be protecting the rights of the innocent. In PSUs case it is even worse because the one doing the vile, criminal acts was not a young adult but an employee/former employee of the university who was able to use the university to further his evil.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Just keeps getting worse... Guy who was raped by JS, in the PSU bathrooms in 1971, claims Joe Paterno told him to drop the accusations.

“I made it clear there were things done to me that I just can’t believe could have been done to me and I couldn’t escape. I said, ‘I’m very upset and scared and I couldn’t believe I let my guard down.’ They listened to me. And then all hell broke loose.

“They were asking me my motive, why I would say this about someone who has done so many good things.”

They accused him of making it up. “‘Stop this right now! We’ll call the authorities,'” he said they told him.

Victim A says he couldn’t think. “I just wanted to get off the phone.”

http://thebiglead.com/2016/05/06/a-...aims-joe-paterno-told-him-to-drop-accusation/

 

[BuffLuke80]

Jesus Christ, how could they honestly keep their mouths shut that long and be able to look in the mirror?

 

[SECOBuffsFan]

There is a special place in hell for people who harm children like this

 

[MCskid]

and joe ped's there

 

[Buffnik]

Jesus Christ, how could they honestly keep their mouths shut that long and be able to look in the mirror?

Big organizations and this attitude that calling it your job somehow makes it ok to behave with a different morality than you do in your family & social life.

Whether we're talking about Penn State or we're talking about something like the suppression of information about the health risks of cigarette smoke or Teflon or whatever... these are people who make these decisions and other people who go along with them under the cognitive separation of it being the organization, not personal. Most people bow to authority. Nearly everyone else has a price, whether it be what's at stake in power/wealth/prestige for those at the top or whether it's going from whistleblower to deciding that it's better to take some cash with a non-disclosure that includes no admission of wrongdoing than to risk being destroyed trying to take on something much bigger than you.

The psychology of how this stuff happens, has always happened, and will continue to happen is clear. Look no further than the Stanford Prison Experiment. What's interesting to me is the collective denial and self-reassurance that is constantly heard from everyone with all the "how could they" and "I would never" statements of righteous indignation. Truth is, nearly all of us would have told ourselves we did our job if we were a PSU employee who reported something we saw to a superior and it didn't go anywhere. Nearly all of us would protect our own careers and the futures we were building for our families instead of taking on the system. And pretty much every one of us who is built the way that would make us capable of successfully leading a huge organization like we're talking about would also do what's necessary to protect that organization (see the multiple studies linking CEOs to psychopathic spectrum and also "The Sociopath Next Door").

Or just watch "Cool Hand Luke" and remember that almost none of us are like Luke. Almost all of us are like the wardens, guards, cellmates or The Man With No Eyes.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I get what you are saying man but I can't get behind any situation like that. I don't give a **** if I was a millionaire or the face of football. I would've said something if it meant my job.

 

[sackman]

You say that until reality smacks you in the face. Until then, dude, you have no idea...




Did I do that right?

 

[BuffLuke80]

And I'm telling you that ur wrong too.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Big organizations and this attitude that calling it your job somehow makes it ok to behave with a different morality than you do in your family & social life.

Whether we're talking about Penn State or we're talking about something like the suppression of information about the health risks of cigarette smoke or Teflon or whatever... these are people who make these decisions and other people who go along with them under the cognitive separation of it being the organization, not personal. Most people bow to authority. Nearly everyone else has a price, whether it be what's at stake in power/wealth/prestige for those at the top or whether it's going from whistleblower to deciding that it's better to take some cash with a non-disclosure that includes no admission of wrongdoing than to risk being destroyed trying to take on something much bigger than you.

The psychology of how this stuff happens, has always happened, and will continue to happen is clear. Look no further than the Stanford Prison Experiment. What's interesting to me is the collective denial and self-reassurance that is constantly heard from everyone with all the "how could they" and "I would never" statements of righteous indignation. Truth is, nearly all of us would have told ourselves we did our job if we were a PSU employee who reported something we saw to a superior and it didn't go anywhere. Nearly all of us would protect our own careers and the futures we were building for our families instead of taking on the system. And pretty much every one of us who is built the way that would make us capable of successfully leading a huge organization like we're talking about would also do what's necessary to protect that organization (see the multiple studies linking CEOs to psychopathic spectrum and also "The Sociopath Next Door").

Or just watch "Cool Hand Luke" and remember that almost none of us are like Luke. Almost all of us are like the wardens, guards, cellmates or The Man With No Eyes.

Dangerously close to being an apologist. The 'everyone else would do it, too' is weak sauce.

This is an institution that got busted for covering up a serial sex offender because some crimes are too horrible to keep suppressed forever.

 

[Buffnik]

Dangerously close to being an apologist. The 'everyone else would do it, too' is weak sauce.

This is an institution that got busted for covering up a serial sex offender because some crimes are too horrible to keep suppressed forever.

Interesting that is what you take away from reading my post.

But I agree that a lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between an explanation and an excuse.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Interesting that is what you take away from reading my post.

But I agree that a lot of people have difficulty distinguishing between an explanation and an excuse.

A well written post never puts the author in a position of blaming the reader for misunderstanding the intended meaning.

The explanation boils down to "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Large organizations with checks and balances, systematic controls, and a bias for transparency can and do navigate scandal with more aplomb than PSU.

A charismatic leader like Joe Pa wanted too much power, got it from a weak university leadership structure, and proceeded to abuse his power.

Deflecting with the Stanford Prison Experiment and tobacco lobby is hogwash.

 

[Buffnik]

A well written post never puts the author in a position of blaming the reader for misunderstanding the intended meaning.

The explanation boils down to "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Large organizations with checks and balances, systematic controls, and a bias for transparency can and do navigate scandal with more aplomb than PSU.

A charismatic leader like Joe Pa wanted too much power, got it from a weak university leadership structure, and proceeded to abuse his power.

Deflecting with the Stanford Prison Experiment and tobacco lobby is hogwash.

Was not deflecting anything. You seem to be assuming an intent that wasn't there.

I agree with the institutional checks & balances on power. That dovetails perfectly with the point I'm making.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Was not deflecting anything. You seem to be assuming an intent that wasn't there.

I agree with the institutional checks & balances on power. That dovetails perfectly with the point I'm making.

Again, you are attacking the reader for the reader's alleged assumptions.

My assumption is that the Penn State story may be personal for you. I'm not sure what your relationship is with Penn State. Correct me if you or your immediate relatives don't have any personal ties with PSU.

To me it seemed too convenient to grasp for straws by asserting that "Most people bow to authority". Those are your words. This is where you lost me. I don't believe that most people would tolerate an institution that covers up the rape of children over a long period of time. Humans are pre-programmed to see evil and do something about it.

 

[Buffnik]

No I am not. You have chosen to criticize based on things I did not write but you chose to assume were part of it. If you are curious if I meant anything beyond what is written, it's simple enough to ask me.

Edit to address your other points.

1. Connection to Penn State is I finished my degree from a PSU satellite campus while I was working.

2. "Most people bow to authority" is factually true. You can look at psychological studies on behavior, Kohlberg scale of moral development, etc. You may choose that humans are pre-programmed to be whistle blowers and to stand up against injustice, but it's simply not true. May be a useful delusion for people to think that way since it might keep you from thinking poorly of our fellow humans (or our own selves), but it's untrue. PSU... or name another atrocity large or small from Nanking to not tattling on a bully at a high school... all have the same thing in common: happened among people who are no different than you or me. There's nothing innately different from us with the people living in Germany in the late 30s or working at PSU or the Catholic church or wherever. So the institutional controls with checks & balances are absolutely vital. Left to our own devices, the people who seize the reins of power generally have sociopathic, psychopathic and narcissistic personality traits while the rest of us generally bow to authority or can be pressured to drop things or move to a new place rather than risking everything by taking on something bigger than us with nothing to personally gain and a lot to personally lose. That's not to say that some will go to the wall because of their own code of honor and a sense of righteousness. But there aren't a lot of Ned Starks among us and it usually doesn't turn out well for them.

 

[Deleted member 807]

No I am not. You have chosen to criticize based on things I did not write but you chose to assume were part of it. If you are curious if I meant anything beyond what is written, it's simple enough to ask me.

This really isn't about you or me. It's about the answer to BuffLuke's question in post #66. "how could people keep their mouths shut for so long and still look at themselves in the mirror?"

There probably are as many answers as there are people involved. Any answer would be speculative. Here's my take.

1) JoPa's credibility and power exceeded those of the accusers and JoPa made a poor personal choice to protect his reputation over the safety of victims.
2) Football is a sacred American institution that provides scholarships, teaches character and teamwork to the players, entertains fans, and provides an identity and source of pride for millions of people in the community. Any attack on football will result in an asymmetrical counter attack by fanatical supporters.
3). There wasn't a money incentive to come forward before. Now that there are lawsuits against PSU, the motivation for victims to speak out now has never been stronger.

 

[Buffnik]

This really isn't about you or me. It's about the answer to BuffLuke's question in post #66. "how could people keep their mouths shut for so long and still look at themselves in the mirror?"

There probably are as many answers as there are people involved. Any answer would be speculative. Here's my take.

1) JoPa's credibility and power exceeded those of the accusers and JoPa made a poor personal choice to protect his reputation over the safety of victims.
2) Football is a sacred American institution that provides scholarships, teaches character and teamwork to the players, entertains fans, and provides an identity and source of pride for millions of people in the community. Any attack on football will result in an asymmetrical counter attack by fanatical supporters.
3). There wasn't a money incentive to come forward before. Now that there are lawsuits against PSU, the motivation for victims to speak out now has never been stronger.

Generally, people are motivated by love, money or power. Either by grasping for those things or fear that they'll be lost.

So, yeah, could be 1, 2 or 3... or some combination.

In terms of being able to look ourselves in the mirror, the dissonance most people employ is that calling it their job makes it right. As long as they followed policy and expectations (or for those in power - a "greater good" argument), they can look themselves in the mirror just fine.

 

[Deleted member 807]

Generally, people are motivated by love, money or power. Either by grasping for those things or fear that they'll be lost.

So, yeah, could be 1, 2 or 3... or some combination.

In terms of being able to look ourselves in the mirror, the dissonance most people employ is that calling it their job makes it right. As long as they followed policy and expectations, they can look themselves in the mirror just fine.

Some people, yes. Other people, no.

You point out that we're fundimentaly the same as Germans in the 30s to illustrate your argument. This offends me on any number of levels.

The Germans in the 30's were reeling from losses of blood and treasure following WWI; the war to end all wars. Their government was rooted in monarchy and pivoting to fascism. Hitler didn't get away with 3 decades of cover-up. His ass was kicked within "only" 6 years by allies who were horrified by the holocaust enough to lay down their lives to do something about it.

Not much there in common to State College. There were plenty of people in and out of Germany who didn't just salute Hitler. Many lost their lives. "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

I don't get why the thrust of your critique is on the psychology of the witnesses instead of the moral corruption and character flaws of this story's principle actors.

 

[BuffLuke80]

Generally, people are motivated by love, money or power. Either by grasping for those things or fear that they'll be lost.

So, yeah, could be 1, 2 or 3... or some combination.

In terms of being able to look ourselves in the mirror, the dissonance most people employ is that calling it their job makes it right. As long as they followed policy and expectations (or for those in power - a "greater good" argument), they can look themselves in the mirror just fine.

I couldn't man, I have a better heart than that and so do you.

 

[Buffnik]

Some people, yes. Other people, no.

You point out that we're fundimentaly the same as Germans in the 30s to illustrate your argument. This offends me on any number of levels.

The Germans in the 30's were reeling from losses of blood and treasure following WWI; the war to end all wars. Their government was rooted in monarchy and pivoting to fascism. Hitler didn't get away with 3 decades of cover-up. His ass was kicked within "only" 6 years by allies who were horrified by the holocaust enough to lay down their lives to do something about it.

Not much there in common to State College. There were plenty of people in and out of Germany who didn't just salute Hitler. Many lost their lives. "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

I don't get why the thrust of your critique is on the psychology of the witnesses instead of the moral corruption and character flaws of this story's principle actors.

I'm not just talking about the witnesses. I'm also talking about those in charge and those who heard rumors but did nothing to look into them.

I'm also talking in general psychological terms with how people react within situations. On a basic level, the behavior of actors within the Nazi Germany, PSU or DuPont covering up the dangers of Teflon are all governed by the same principles and all made possible by the same truths about human psychology.

I understand why people want to believe that those things are isolated to very specific places and circumstances so they wouldn't or couldn't happen elsewhere. That we can direct righteous indignation at all of this in the comfort that other people are better than that. Maybe it's better if I just leave it alone and not challenge those types of beliefs that make it easier for people to get through the day. Just so long as we're clear that I wasn't excusing anything or suggesting that there it was anything but horrible and a huge moral failing by those involved.

 

[Buffnik]

I couldn't man, I have a better heart than that and so do you.

I'd like to think that I do. It would be easy, though, as a person in charge to pay off victims and justify it as being better for them than a legal judgment while also protecting the innocent whose jobs, scholarships, funding, etc. are at stake. It would be easy, though, to say that I had done my job by reporting suspicions to my superiors or turning things over to the legal department and then moving on with my life & career when nothing seemed to come of it. I'd like to think that I'd risk my reputation, career, social network and financial security of my family to be a crusader for what is right versus people and organizations with much more power, influence and resources than I have. I want to believe that about myself.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I don't give a **** what anyone's role was in it, there's right and wrong. If I had to lose my job seeing something like that, so be it. Come on Nik.

 

[SINKRATZ]

I'm with Nik. Look no further than the poop thread - that abomination had been allowed to go on for 9 f**king months. The powers that be moved it to the island so no one would see it, but it's still going on!

 

[BuffLuke80]

I'd like to think that I do. It would be easy, though, as a person in charge to pay off victims and justify it as being better for them than a legal judgment while also protecting the innocent whose jobs, scholarships, funding, etc. are at stake. It would be easy, though, to say that I had done my job by reporting suspicions to my superiors or turning things over to the legal department and then moving on with my life & career when nothing seemed to come of it. I'd like to think that I'd risk my reputation, career, social network and financial security of my family to be a crusader for what is right versus people and organizations with much more power, influence and resources than I have. I want to believe that about myself.

I'd believe you would. It would be worth it.

 

[BuffLuke80]

I'm not against Nik, I just know he's a good guy and I can't subscribe to not saying a word. If I'm a real man, or alien, I'd provide no matter what. At least I'd have my dignity.

 

[MtnBuff]

I do think that the bow to authority comment has validity. This is especially true when that authority has both titular authority and is looked at as having moral authority.

JoPa had the ability to fire a lot of those below him who could have spoken up but didn't. Being known as the guy who "tried to drag a legend through the mud" would be a career killing move. As despicable as it is JoPa's response isn't that surprising either. He had put his life into building something. He came from a background that didn't acknowledge that level of evil. He was able to first convince himself that it really wasn't going on then to minimize it and look at it in the face of what it would do to "his program."

Where I have the real problem is in PSU not having anyone who could hold JoPa accountable. The President of the University, the administrator in charge of campus security, the athletic director, even the governing board all allowed the football coach to make the decisions that not only impacted the football program but also the campus community and the innocent kids who suffered at the hands of JoPa's buddy.

Most systems have some level of failure. Individuals put personal interest or even what they see as organizational interest ahead of individual rights. The problem is that in an organization that is a public institution, that is supposed to be about improving lives on various levels, there is zero excuse for those in charge of the University to actually take control and do what is right instead of what their football coach tells them to.

When wining football games is more important that kids being raped those at the top have criminally failed. Further those in the fan base who are the taxpayers, donors, paying fans, and voters who allow it to happen are also responsible. Their responsibility is not the same but it is every bit as important.

I hope that neither group is allowed to forget what happened until they have forced a real change. So far what I have seen from Penn State indicates that they are not ready for this to happen. They still defend JoPa without reservation, they still insist that they have been wronged, that they have been unfairly targeted, that they are the victims in this case, not the boys.

 

[CVBuff]

The problem with the analogy to the aforementioned psychological experiments is that Papa Joe was in power. To use your analogy, he was the Hitler, or Stalin or Mao. He was not the subordinate. He deserves all and any derision that comes his way. Papa Joe has no excuses. PSU has no excuses. None, zero, nada. They were in power and wanted nothing to rock the boat. Disgusting cowards. The harm done is mind blowing. Sexual abuse is a "gift" that keeps on giving for generations. A good administrator, let alone leader, does not allow a subordinate to continue in the organization for 1 minute if they can bring down the organization through known illegal behavior. It is both stupid and cowardly to allow kids to get abused by a subordinate over an extended period. This happened under the umbrella of PSU football for a long time and then occurred under the apparent blessing of PSU football after legal separations took place. Disgusting then, and the lack of condemnation by PSU is even more disgusting now. And before you say you that I don't know how I'd act, I've reported abuse several times. And yes, it can be a little uncomfortable. But so what.