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Requiem for the Big East

Buffnik

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
This was a fantastic hour.

Memory lane for me.

The "football problem" was always the issue.

Could it have worked long-term with the growth of football? I don't know. Syracuse and Boston College were key to the conference and football was a big thing for them.

The first 5 had no interest in playing D1A football. Penn State wanted to join and it only got 5 votes instead of the necessary 6 to add a new member. So they invited Pitt instead based on being a larger city market with more of a basketball focus.

I wish they would have found a way to make it work.
 
You can have Boston College back. Great school but the major sports are mediocre at best and support for BC athletics is non-existent. They've been in the ACC for almost a decade now and I don't recall ever seeing a single BC fan.
 
Had the BE been able to figure out a way to be relavent in football BC would have been way better off staying.

When they left for the ACC they became a school thad didn't matter. They don't have much in common with the ACC schools or region. The kids in the Northeast who wanted to play in the ACC wanted to play for what they considered to be ACC schools, the kids who didn't want to play for those schools wanted to stay home and play with and against the Big East schools.
 
MtnBuff said:
Had the BE been able to figure out a way to be relavent in football BC would have been way better off staying.

When they left for the ACC they became a school thad didn't matter. They don't have much in common with the ACC schools or region. The kids in the Northeast who wanted to play in the ACC wanted to play for what they considered to be ACC schools, the kids who didn't want to play for those schools wanted to stay home and play with and against the Big East schools.
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Yeah, I certainly can't blame BC for jumping. It saved them. But let me tell you there's literally no ACC hoops or football game as boring as facing BC. BC is a distant program completely out of touch with ACC "culture". Syracuse and Pitt joining may bridge that gap somewhat, but the biggest issue is BC's own weak support.
 
CVilleBuff said:
You can have Boston College back. Great school but the major sports are mediocre at best and support for BC athletics is non-existent. They've been in the ACC for almost a decade now and I don't recall ever seeing a single BC fan.
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Geographically bad fit for the ACC. You should try to trade with the B1G to give them BC and get Maryland back.

Regarding the Big East...

Northeast took a very different path with college sports than the rest of the country. If you think about the difference in culture, look no further than the Ivy.

There's not doubt in my mind that - if they'd chosen to - universities like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell and Penn could have been national powers in football and basketball.

It was probably inevitable that those from the region that wanted to play on the big stage in football have been swallowed up by the ACC and B1G.

And that those who valued athletics enough to focus on basketball while keeping football as a 2nd tier program within their ADs (Georgetown, Villanova) have found a league that better reflects them.

Little known, but Holy Cross was an original invite and they chose not to play in the big tent. If they're ready to make a commitment, I could see them added to the new Big East in order to maintain the Northeast flavor and give Providence its natural rival. Otherwise, they're becoming too much of a midwest league and losing what they were and are trying to get back to in a way.
 
I've often wondered if some Ivy schools could go back and do things differently if they would. You're right that they could have been powers.

I think the new Big East will be successful. It is going back to its roots. Yeah, it has midwest influence but it's upper Midwest which isn't so different culturally. Also, plenty of good A10 options if they wanted to raid. Lots of private schools that fit the mold, and frankly even a public school like VCU with Shaka fits the mold. Richmond is basically the southern version of Phildadelphia. No football at VCU, either.
 
CVilleBuff said:
I've often wondered if some Ivy schools could go back and do things differently if they would. You're right that they could have been powers.

I think the new Big East will be successful. It is going back to its roots. Yeah, it has midwest influence but it's upper Midwest which isn't so different culturally. Also, plenty of good A10 options if they wanted to raid. Lots of private schools that fit the mold, and frankly even a public school like VCU with Shaka fits the mold. Richmond is basically the southern version of Phildadelphia. No football at VCU, either.
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The key for the Big East if they were to expand would be to make sure that any school it added that has a successful FCS football program would not have any interest in leveraging the basketball money to build its football into FBS level. I think that's the main reason they stayed away from UMass. Nova's happy as FCS (knowing it's too small of a private school to compete with the big privates or state land grants in football consistently -- the path Wake Forest should have taken, fwiw). Would Richmond be safe on that count? Would VCU? For that matter, would JMU (I noticed you didn't bring them up)?
 
CVilleBuff said:
I've often wondered if some Ivy schools could go back and do things differently if they would. You're right that they could have been powers.

I think the new Big East will be successful. It is going back to its roots. Yeah, it has midwest influence but it's upper Midwest which isn't so different culturally. Also, plenty of good A10 options if they wanted to raid. Lots of private schools that fit the mold, and frankly even a public school like VCU with Shaka fits the mold. Richmond is basically the southern version of Phildadelphia. No football at VCU, either.
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Ultimately for the universities sports is about publicity, status, and most importantly money for the schools.

For the Ivies playing big time sports wouldn't give them big advantages in any of these areas. Harvard, Yale, even the bottom Ivies are known to the extent that they want to be within the circles they want to be known in. To them it is much more important to be ranked in US News and world report or in the World University rankings than being ranked in the AP, or the USA polls. They get the publicity for their academic accomplishments. They have graduates in the White House, on the Supreme Court, as CEO's on Fox Business, in Fortune.

You could make a financial argument except that not many schools end up making a lot of money off sports. The big pull is moving donations to non-athletic projects. The size and growth of the Ivy endowments, the corporate and governmental grants, etc. are coming in in record numbers without having high profile athletic programs.

Bottom line I don't think the Ivies regret much the path they have taken.
 
Buffnik said:
The key for the Big East if they were to expand would be to make sure that any school it added that has a successful FCS football program would not have any interest in leveraging the basketball money to build its football into FBS level. I think that's the main reason they stayed away from UMass. Nova's happy as FCS (knowing it's too small of a private school to compete with the big privates or state land grants in football consistently -- the path Wake Forest shouldt have taken, fwiw). Would Richmond be safe on that count? Would VCU? For that matter, would JMU (I noticed you didn't bring them up)?
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VCU will be like a George Mason. Both will never have football. Richmond has a very good FCS football program, as does JMU. Richmond also just has a completely different culture than VCU despite being in the same city. Richmond is very southern and WASPy, it's like Wake Forest. VCU, meanwhile, is like Temple (minus football).

JMU is a major sleeping giant. It's strange to me they've been left behind in the CAA for basketball while Old Dominion, VCU, Richmond and George Mason moved on. Of all the Virginia schools, JMU has the potential to become another UVA or VT. JMU already has the nicest FCS football facilities in the nation. It's rapidly improving academically and pulls a lot of Northeast kids (Going to college in VA, NC, SC is "cool" now for northeast kids). I imagine JMU will be watching ODU's FBS experiment very closely.

I do think VCU would be a good fit for the Big East despite being a public school. Appealing brand of basketball, you either love or hate Shaka, and basketball is the sport. Also VCU's Siegel Center is an excellent venue and they're going to expand it very soon.
 
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MtnBuff said:
Ultimately for the universities sports is about publicity, status, and most importantly money for the schools.

For the Ivies playing big time sports wouldn't give them big advantages in any of these areas. Harvard, Yale, even the bottom Ivies are known to the extent that they want to be within the circles they want to be known in. To them it is much more important to be ranked in US News and world report or in the World University rankings than being ranked in the AP, or the USA polls. They get the publicity for their academic accomplishments. They have graduates in the White House, on the Supreme Court, as CEO's on Fox Business, in Fortune.

You could make a financial argument except that not many schools end up making a lot of money off sports. The big pull is moving donations to non-athletic projects. The size and growth of the Ivy endowments, the corporate and governmental grants, etc. are coming in in record numbers without having high profile athletic programs.

Bottom line I don't think the Ivies regret much the path they have taken.
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Ivies were at the top though and gave it away, but did they know the extent to which collegiate athletics would be the boost a school's visibility and finances in the 21st century when they retreated down this path 50 years ago? Obviously Ivy League schools retain their visibility by being leading academic institutions. However, Stanford and Duke haven't harmed their academics by having big time athletic programs. Harvard would still be Harvard, it would just have FBS football.

In an era in which we complain about college athletics being corrupted, there's actually a resurgence of kids interested in attending top academic institutions. It's cool to go to Stanford or Duke now. Harvard basketball is having a resurgence and becoming a top program.
 
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Stanford, Duke, Northwestern & Vandy are single players in their conferences. The Ivy League is 8 Stanfords. It's harder to stick out in that situation. The Ivys don't regret the path they've taken.

@mtn - Princeton is not a "lower Ivy".
 
sackman said:
Stanford, Duke, Northwestern & Vandy are single players in their conferences. The Ivy League is 8 Stanfords. It's harder to stick out in that situation. The Ivys don't regret the path they've taken.

@mtn - Princeton is not a "lower Ivy".
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Certainly not, although Harvard and Yale are normally the first two mentioned. By lower Ivies I only meant those that don't have quite as high a profile. I would have zero objection to one of my kids graduating from any of them.

You are correct about the schools you list being single players in their conferences. I would also venture to say that if Stanford dropped a level or two in all major sports they still would not lack for elite applicants or for recognition. Prior to Barnett resurecting the program Northwestern was terrible and it didn't hurt their standing in other areas.
 
sackman said:
Stanford, Duke, Northwestern & Vandy are single players in their conferences. The Ivy League is 8 Stanfords. It's harder to stick out in that situation. The Ivys don't regret the path they've taken.

@mtn - Princeton is not a "lower Ivy".
Click to expand...


I think MTN meant academically, not with sports, where they are obviously subpar.
 
It wasn't a given that the Ivy League schools all had to stick together. It became a conference in the 50s. Obviously some old rivalries that go way, way back...but as a whole, it's not that hard to imagine how a few schools could have taken a different path.
 
tante said:
I think MTN meant academically, not with sports, where they are obviously subpar.
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So you think all the Ivies are exactly equal and on even footing? To be an Ivy carries the cache of being an elite institution academically but that doesn't mean that they are all exactly equal in terms of prestige and public awareness.

Count on tante to look for an argument where there isn't one just to be the resident a-hole.
 
if you guys really are interested in that stuff, the VT webpage I used to frequent has an outstanding series on east-coast conference expansion history here. Warning: definitely written from a VT POV.

If anyone has a link to something comparable that gives a history of the west coast conference expansion, I'd be interested.
 
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