'13 CO OT John Lisella (Signed to Colorado)

[FightCu1414]

No way his ceiling is the equivalent to Ryan Miller coming out of HS. Miller went to the NFL and was a 5 star recruit coming out of HS. He didn't live up to expectations as a dominating tackle but he turned into a very good guard for us. If Lisella's perceived ceiling was even close to Millers he would have offers from 50 D1 schools.

With that being said I think taking guys with athleticism and good frames is a good strategy for CU. Lisella can GS and possibly RS and by then should be ready to handle the size/speed of Pac 12 players. I would be fine with CU taking a couple GS guys every year as projects on the OL/DL.

Like was said below why do you think Ryan Miller was a 5* recruit? because he had an NFL body in high school. He did go to the NFL, but I would beg to say over his career at CU, he did not progress and maybe even regressed from High School. John has a body he can grow into, is far more athletic. This is what gives him the ceiling of a Ryan Miller. I watched both play quite a bit at columbine and Miller made as many mistakes as Lisella, it was his size that gave him the Five Star rating. Also Solder is a very good example. My dad used to coach at BV so i watched him play quite a bit. HE was a freaking TE that was tall but had no meat on him, reminds me of a Ben Mills body type. Point is it is possible that John grows into his frame and is highly successful

 

[ElCunado]

Like was said below why do you think Ryan Miller was a 5* recruit? because he had an NFL body in high school. He did go to the NFL, but I would beg to say over his career at CU, he did not progress and maybe even regressed from High School. John has a body he can grow into, is far more athletic. This is what gives him the ceiling of a Ryan Miller. I watched both play quite a bit at columbine and Miller made as many mistakes as Lisella, it was his size that gave him the Five Star rating. Also Solder is a very good example. My dad used to coach at BV so i watched him play quite a bit. HE was a freaking TE that was tall but had no meat on him, reminds me of a Ben Mills body type. Point is it is possible that John grows into his frame and is highly successful

Honestly, have you seen the play in the state championship game when Ryan Miller was a senior? He was playing defense and chased down a RB with a bad angle. It was ridiculous. I don't think there is any way you can call Lisella more athletic. That being said, I am very happy we got him as a gray shirt. Best possible scenario.

I think the best comparison for Lisella is going to be Tyler Polumbus. Came to CU super light, and worked hard for 3 years. Became a legit player and has had a respectable NFL career. Lisella doesn't have the initial height but will obviously get another year to mature. No down side to this. Also keeps the coaches in touch with Columbine.

 

[BuffHerd]

You got this wrong. Miller was a 5-star out of high school because he already had an NFL body. He was very near his ceiling, so no projection was necessary. He was going to have all of the physical attributes to play high-level D1 football without any question.

Lisella is a big question mark, but IF he can put on 70 pounds, his ceiling may be as high or higher than Ryan Millers. In hindsight, Ryan may have had some other things that hold him back that have nothing to do with size or strength.

Sort of Nate Solder vs. Ryan Miller. Solder is by far a better NFL linemen, but he wasn't going to be as highly recruited as Ryan Miller even if they went to the same high school.

Big time programs don't mess around with IFs. They don't have to. The less variables the better. That's the difference.

Best possible explanation of star ratings and where we stand vs programs at the top.

 

[BuffUp]

gs - my question is. Once you commit to grey shirt, is that it? Can you change your mind before the start of fall ball?

 

[Buffnik]

gs - my question is. Once you commit to grey shirt, is that it? Can you change your mind before the start of fall ball?

Sure.

 

[buffaholic]

gs - my question is. Once you commit to grey shirt, is that it? Can you change your mind before the start of fall ball?

A grey shirt signs a Letter of Intent (LOI) just like any other player. The decision to grey shirt (or not) can be made (or changed) any time up until fall practices start and/or the start of school in the fall.
In order to grey shirt, a player cannot practice (not once) in an official team practice (i.e. fall) and may not attend school as a full-time student (not even for one day), at a Juco or anywhere. This delays his eligibility clock from starting. The eligibility clock, once starts, expires 5 years later. (typically, players take courses at the local JC as a part time student or sometimes, they start at the University they will be attending, but on their own dime).

Can you change your mind? Sure. But this is a mutual thing between staff and kid. If the kid wants to do it, the coach may support that or talk him out of it. It's really a coaching decision. If the kid doesn't want to do it, he's sort of stuck, if the staff wants to play hard ball. In practice, usually everyone sees the light and agrees on it. In the case of our own Gerald Kough, he did not want to grey shirt, but the staff told them they needed him to as they were up against their 25 max number (i.e. they over-signed). They convinced him to do it for his own benefit (get stronger, make some money, delay his clock starting etc).

Speaking of changing your mind....
If a player greyshirts, he is no longer bound to his LOI. In other words, he can change his mind and go elsewhere (ala Kisima Jagne). So in the case of Kough, he could have opted out of his LOI and went back on the market, potentially accepting the West Point option for example.

Clarification, the player is bound to the LOI until the following semester. Meaning, that if he did not want to grey shirt, but that was the only option the staff gave him, he could not opt out of his LOI until the January period. So in effect, he'd still be sitting out the fall period, and not starting his eligibility clock.

 

[BuffUp]

A grey shirt signs a Letter of Intent (LOI) just like any other player. The decision to grey shirt (or not) can be made (or changed) any time up until fall practices start and/or the start of school in the fall.
In order to grey shirt, a player cannot practice (not once) in an official team practice (i.e. fall) and may not attend school as a full-time student (not even for one day), at a Juco or anywhere. This delays his eligibility clock from starting. The eligibility clock, once starts, expires 5 years later. (typically, players take courses at the local JC as a part time student or sometimes, they start at the University they will be attending, but on their own dime).

Can you change your mind? Sure. But this is a mutual thing between staff and kid. If the kid wants to do it, the coach may support that or talk him out of it. It's really a coaching decision. If the kid doesn't want to do it, he's sort of stuck, if the staff wants to play hard ball. In practice, usually everyone sees the light and agrees on it. In the case of our own Gerald Kough, he did not want to grey shirt, but the staff told them they needed him to as they were up against their 25 max number (i.e. they over-signed). They convinced him to do it for his own benefit (get stronger, make some money, delay his clock starting etc).

Speaking of changing your mind....
If a player greyshirts, he is no longer bound to his LOI. In other words, he can change his mind and go elsewhere (ala Kisima Jagne). So in the case of Kough, he could have opted out of his LOI and went back on the market, potentially accepting the West Point option for example.

nice detailed answer - thank you SirHolic

 

[FightCu1414]

Honestly, have you seen the play in the state championship game when Ryan Miller was a senior? He was playing defense and chased down a RB with a bad angle. It was ridiculous. I don't think there is any way you can call Lisella more athletic. That being said, I am very happy we got him as a gray shirt. Best possible scenario.

I think the best comparison for Lisella is going to be Tyler Polumbus. Came to CU super light, and worked hard for 3 years. Became a legit player and has had a respectable NFL career. Lisella doesn't have the initial height but will obviously get another year to mature. No down side to this. Also keeps the coaches in touch with Columbine.

Yup I was there it was against Mullen. 2006 state champs. Was he chasing down Aguilar or Brewster? And he played both ways very seldom nor did he play other sports. Lisella started both ways this year. But we will see what happens.

 

[o_robbie]

Like was said below why do you think Ryan Miller was a 5* recruit? because he had an NFL body in high school. He did go to the NFL, but I would beg to say over his career at CU, he did not progress and maybe even regressed from High School. John has a body he can grow into, is far more athletic. This is what gives him the ceiling of a Ryan Miller. I watched both play quite a bit at columbine and Miller made as many mistakes as Lisella, it was his size that gave him the Five Star rating. Also Solder is a very good example. My dad used to coach at BV so i watched him play quite a bit. HE was a freaking TE that was tall but had no meat on him, reminds me of a Ben Mills body type. Point is it is possible that John grows into his frame and is highly successful

The biggest hole in this argument is that you are basically saying any 6 foot 5 230 lb basketball player could project to Ryan Miller ability by gaining weight over 3 years. Your requirements for upside appear to be height and athleticism. I completely disagree that Lisella's upside is as high as Miller's was. The scholarship offers or lack there of back me up on this one.

 

[SuperiorBuff]

The biggest hole in this argument is that you are basically saying any 6 foot 5 230 lb basketball player could project to Ryan Miller ability by gaining weight over 3 years. Your requirements for upside appear to be height and athleticism. I completely disagree that Lisella's upside is as high as Miller's was. The scholarship offers or lack there of back me up on this one.

Just like Nate Solder or Ryan Clady.

 

[wsp4820]

The biggest hole in this argument is that you are basically saying any 6 foot 5 230 lb basketball player could project to Ryan Miller ability by gaining weight over 3 years. Your requirements for upside appear to be height and athleticism. I completely disagree that Lisella's upside is as high as Miller's was. The scholarship offers or lack there of back me up on this one.

Maybe I'm missing his point, but I don't think he's saying he thinks Lisella's "mythical ceiling" matches what everyone thought Miller's "mythical ceiling" was when Miller came out of high school. He's saying that Lisella's "mythical ceiling," i.e. the best we can expect, is Miller's actual career at CU. We hoped Miller would be a multi-year All-American LT and dominate like no one since the McCartney days. He turned out to be a solid four-year starter on the right side of the line who we always wished gave us a little bit more. Certainly don't think you can reasonably expect Lisella to start as a freshman, but could he turn into a solid multi-year starter? Maybe.

 

[buffaholic]

star ratings reflect "interest" from major programs, not so much their ceilings.

I look at it this way. Ryan Miller was already good at 16 years old. No "projection" needed. He was big and strong and had a mean streak. He was going to be either very good or great.
Lisella has to be projected, learn a lot of technique (like pass pro) and gain 60+ pounds. There's a decent chance he may never be as good as Ryan Miller was at 16.
Ryan Miller is a safe play for recruiters, who can't afford to miss much. Ryan Miller had lots of offers.

Lisella has an Air Force offer. He's a project. There are more risks.

But still, his ceiling could very well be higher than Ryan Millers. As with any offensive lineman, there's a lot of development that will need to take place. The biggest risk with Lisella (as compared to Miller) is simply can he (and is he willing to) put on 60-80 pounds?

 

[Quattro]

'13 CO OT John Lisella (Verbal to Colorado)

Since when do star ratings reflect interest?

 

[FightCu1414]

The biggest hole in this argument is that you are basically saying any 6 foot 5 230 lb basketball player could project to Ryan Miller ability by gaining weight over 3 years. Your requirements for upside appear to be height and athleticism. I completely disagree that Lisella's upside is as high as Miller's was. The scholarship offers or lack there of back me up on this one.

You are correct that my argument is flawed. I need to shut up bout it cause I'm obviously bias. But I said John's ceiling is how Ryan Miller performed at CU. Ryan Miller's upside is plenty higher than Lisella's but Ryan underperformed at CU because of his injuries. He will be the first person to say that. And his blood clot and other health issues played a role in not getting more offers, but a greyshirt is completely necessary. He is not ready yet, but the potential is there. Lesson learned don't post about your friends hahaha

 

[MtnBuff]

Since when do star ratings reflect interest?

Virtually always. Take a kid who is rated as a 2* kid and let him get offered and take a trip to Texas or Oregon and watch how fast his number of stars jumps.

The star ratings have been argued ad nauseum on this site but history has shown two things. One is that kids with higher star rating have a higher chance of turning into solid players. Second is that the top programs don't get there or stay there with bad recruiting so if those programs are interested in a kid it usually means that the evaluation of the kid should be looked at if he is ranked low.

None of this is absolute. A kid like Lisella can turn out to be a pro prosect but he has a lot further to go to get there than the typical kid with a USC offer.

At the same time the 4* and 5* kids aren't lining up to go to a program that was 1-11 last year and hasn't won a bowl in a decade. If CU is going to get significantly better we have to find a bunch of guys who aren't high on the radar who can develop into the kind of players that can compete with the guys who develop earlier like Ryan Miller did.

My gut feeling is that Lisella is one of those guys. Put the weight on, mature physically, and be able to contribute at the PAC level as a jr. and sr. I'd much rather take a guy like him than a guy who is much more developed but isn't likely to ever be more than a high FCS kid like a lot of the guys that Hawk was recruiting at the end.

 

[Duff Man]

I think the bigger question to ask about Lisella: knowing the desperate need for OL in this class and over the next couple classes, was offering Lisella (a big-time project) way back in May really a smart idea by the last staff?

 

[Quattro]

'13 CO OT John Lisella (Verbal to Colorado)

I guess my point was that they don't base their ratings on the interest they are receiving, rather their own evaluations, which usually agrees with the coaches. If they based it off of interest it'd be a horrible system that would be very inaccurate.

 

[buffaholic]

i think the bigger question to ask about lisella: Knowing the desperate shortage of scholarships and the massive numbers of holes to fill in this class and over the next couple classes, was offering lisella (a big-time project) way back in may really a smart idea by the last staff?

fify

 

[buffaholic]

I guess my point was that they don't base their ratings on the interest they are receiving, rather their own evaluations, which usually agrees with the coaches. If they based it off of interest it'd be a horrible system that would be very inaccurate.

Very naive my son. How many guys does Rivals have covering Colorado? How many times does he visit? How many in-persons? Very, very naive.

The ratings are largely tied to the quantity and quality of offers. Kids who are getting offers from SJSU only, are never evaluated (on film or in person) by anyone from the services. I am talking with first hand information here.

 

[buffaholic]

Additionally, when a 2-star guy with a couple crappy offers suddenly is "discovered" by the BCS schools, his rating goes up. His film hasn't changed, and nothing else has changed.

 

[buffaholic]

Virtually always. Take a kid who is rated as a 2* kid and let him get offered and take a trip to Texas or Oregon and watch how fast his number of stars jumps.

The star ratings have been argued ad nauseum on this site but history has shown two things. One is that kids with higher star rating have a higher chance of turning into solid players. Second is that the top programs don't get there or stay there with bad recruiting so if those programs are interested in a kid it usually means that the evaluation of the kid should be looked at if he is ranked low.

None of this is absolute. A kid like Lisella can turn out to be a pro prosect but he has a lot further to go to get there than the typical kid with a USC offer.

At the same time the 4* and 5* kids aren't lining up to go to a program that was 1-11 last year and hasn't won a bowl in a decade. If CU is going to get significantly better we have to find a bunch of guys who aren't high on the radar who can develop into the kind of players that can compete with the guys who develop earlier like Ryan Miller did.

My gut feeling is that Lisella is one of those guys. Put the weight on, mature physically, and be able to contribute at the PAC level as a jr. and sr. I'd much rather take a guy like him than a guy who is much more developed but isn't likely to ever be more than a high FCS kid like a lot of the guys that Hawk was recruiting at the end.

Wish I would have read this perfectly constructed argument before replying to 'Tini's posts.

It's really a very accurate measure. When a guy has many offers from top programs, he should be a 4/5 star. It's been validated by the best programs. Great programs don't stay great programs by mis-evaluating recruits. They can fall fast when they do miss on a consistent basis. That doesn't mean that HCMM isn't as good as Nick Saban. HCMM's job at SJSU is a lot harder as he's got to find bigger projects.

 

[Duff Man]

Let's try to keep this thread on track, guys.

 

[o_robbie]

You are correct that my argument is flawed. I need to shut up bout it cause I'm obviously bias. But I said John's ceiling is how Ryan Miller performed at CU. Ryan Miller's upside is plenty higher than Lisella's but Ryan underperformed at CU because of his injuries. He will be the first person to say that. And his blood clot and other health issues played a role in not getting more offers, but a greyshirt is completely necessary. He is not ready yet, but the potential is there. Lesson learned don't post about your friends hahaha

I am actually very excited about the signing. I love the idea of GS lineman. I just disagree that he has that upside of Miller. Actually, let me put it this way. He has as much upside as all other athletic tall people. I know nothing of his genetics however. You being an insider should know if he has an older brother who is 270 or if his dad is a filled out 250. If you are personally looking at his genetic tree and see thick bodied men who were smaller in weight at 18 then I will concede that he has more upside than other tall athletes.

What a few other people said about Miller I can't argue with. He was already a heck of a lineman at 18. I think there is a kid heading to Michigan who could have been the next Miller here at CU. 4 year starter. We just couldn't get him on board.

I guess we will see in 5 years if Lisella is all conf. 1st or 2nd team like Miller was. I respect your opinion and hope you are right. CU really needs to hit the lottery on some project lineman.

 

[Buffnik]

Now 2* on Rivals.

 

[Jens1893]

Buff

 

[BehindEnemyLines]

Welcome to the Black-n-Gold young man!

 

[14er]

Looking forward to watching your progress on the field. Welcome

 

[TDbuff]

Working out with McChesney apparently:

[tweet]371031703298400257[/tweet]

 

[aik]

[tweet]371031703298400257[/tweet]

Seems like another negative recruiting tactic against us could include a CU education not teaching the student-athlete the correct form of "you're." Come on, Matt.

 

[Buffenuf]

Seems like another negative recruiting tactic against us could include a CU education not teaching the student-athlete the correct form of "you're." Come on, Matt.

Sarc, I know, but its just Twitter! It could/should have been "UR" or "YR". Who cares?

I'm glad NOBODY here ever makes that mistake !