You can always take Jaron Hopkins types.
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Colorado Kids
- Thread starter Goose
- Start date
You can always take Jaron Hopkins types.
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I was really disappointed when Hopkins left, and he was a great pickup when he signed. Sure, he wasn't developing like we all hoped, but I still had a lot of hope that he would be a great perimeter defender for us. I still hope Fletch becomes that - think he can.
On a quick side note too...and since you're super quick on responding, feel free to delete if you think it crosses line with recruits. Have you seen Walton play in person by chance? I saw you say in his thread that you think a healthy Walton could be #1 in the state. ...and I have only seen highlights, but 10 seconds of Deron's reel shows me so much more athleticism than Walton's tape. He has a good looking stroke, isn't stiff (although not great with his feet), has limited athleticism (but not terrible)...but again these are based on his HS game highlights. Deron though... ...he can do some damage, and against all reason, I'm hoping that he realizes that Crean is a creep and comes back home.
CU will be a major program in terms of Bball recruiting when it can sign a Top 50 guy every other year. And ranking will follow. That is not a lot to expect, but it seems like such a stretch right now. It pisses me off. The school is geographically located in the utter middle of nowhere for most high level BBall recruits, and for lots of reasons that hurts. For now, the next 2 years, recruiting will continue to trail results. Man, that's tough and it sucks. Since you only need a couple of guys for the program to improve massively. We are so much better than where we show up on the recruiting trail. WTF. The AZ program is virtually begging for a high level challenger….
Well it's just a different opinion, but I disagree. I'm from AZ and I was hoping Jaron would be great, but from day 1 when I saw that jumpshot.....
Yea, brett brady has a great jump shot.
I was never all that high on Deron. I'm in the minority there. Diallo was my favorite in-state recruit and when he left it become Deron since Walton had the bad wheel. I've always felt like Deron's got a PF game without the height to play there. We'll see.
It's not an either-or proposition.
Many schools passed on Jaron because he had absolutely no jump shot after years of working on it.
Brett Brady had only a great jump shot.
Dre had no jumpshot. Guz has a nice jumpshot. One is in the NBA. The other is (foolishly) getting written off already by a majority of this board.
I realize this board is obsessed with people that can shoot, and that's great, but the guys who can shoot and have the skills to succeed at the next level are the guys that commit to Kentucky. Except for under-the-radar types (Spencer), we aren't competing for those guys yet. You have to pick your priorities - Tad prioritizes athleticism and D.
Dre was a rebounding and defensive machine, he was a Power Forward in many ways. He was SO GOOD at rebounding and defense, that it was ok that he couldn't shoot.
I think Tad saw Hopkins' body type and thought he'd be a Spencer type of player. But perimeter players just have to be able to knock down shots. I could make an exception if the kid is just a complete shut-down defender.
But Hopkins didn't see himself as that player.
With rare exception, today's CBB game requires the perimeter players to be able to shoot the rock.
And that means EVERYONE is trying to find those kids. And we go after them, but we have to have backup plans. It's Moneyball. Find skills that are undervalued that you can win with and go with them.
I'm a big Moneyball fan and all of the philosophy around that. Just don't think Jaron fit that.
And that doesn't make sense, but keep on keepin on.
Fun facts: last year JHop had the highest eFG, TS%, 2 point % and 3 point % of all of the guards (2nd on eFG, TS & 3 pt% if you count Tre as a guard instead of wing) on the roster.
Guys with higher eFG%: Josh, Fletch & Wes
Guys with higher TS%: Josh, XJ, Tory, Tre & Wes
Guys with higher 2 point%: Josh & Wes
Guys with higher 3 point%: XJ & Tre
Guys with higher eFG%: Josh, Fletch & Wes
Guys with higher TS%: Josh, XJ, Tory, Tre & Wes
Guys with higher 2 point%: Josh & Wes
Guys with higher 3 point%: XJ & Tre
Read the book I guess Darth... In Moneyball, the point was to find guys who maybe didn't have 5 tools and didn't excite the scouts, but had the ability to put up numbers, work the counts and draw walks (the undervalued skills in baseball). But also, these guys put up numbers, not just draw walks for instance. They do things that the analytic jockeys have determined wins games. Things that the scouts often missed because they were so enamored with the astounding athletic abilities of the 5-tool guys, who often times didn't do much to win games.
I'd put Jaron in the opposity category. He could bring a crowd to it's feet with his monster dunks and sailing above the rim. He also had the body-type and physical abilities to be a lock-down defender. But he didn't see himself as that sort of role player. He saw himself as a scorer, one with an absolutely awful jumpshot.
Do you think he was a good shooter? Would he see time in the rotation this year?
Medford M.
Well-Known Member
De'Ron is actually a relatively low level athlete. Relatively slow feet. Not explosive. Not particularly long either. Good jump shot. Good defender. Good handles. Good post up and face up game. He's a Josh Scott type IMO, but I think Josh is more fluid than De'Ron.
Walton is taller. Longer. Has a more fluid jump shot IMO. Doesn't have much for post up game. Not going to break other bigs down off the dribble at this point, but if the knee is right, I'd rate him ahead of De'Ron athletically by a wide margin.
Medford M.
Well-Known Member
He would because with George and Fortune coming in and picking up the scoring load, Jaron still wouldn't be asked to do a whole lot of scoring. He can hit the occasional spot up 3, and I think he'd be a good defender. I think he'd do a lot of the things Dre does for OKC. Play defense, hit the occasional jumper, and keep the ball moving on offense.
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
...I don't really know how to respond to this, but I do feel like I need to, primarily because I really disagree with your statements about Davis. I have no idea if you're a solid HS coach (I am not), or have done scouting in your past (I have not), or if you're just a random internet poster that shoots from the hip (which I have occasionally been in the past).
I preface everything by saying my analysis is as a bball fan and only from what's available online. I do not go to HS games. With that said, Davis is very much a HIGH level athlete. No, his athleticism is not on par with a perimeter player, but for an inside guy, very athletic and talented. HIs base (lower body from hips down) seem powerful, he has shown some explosive drives, good handles for his size, ability to throw down with power, decent jumping, decent touch inside 10 feet, ability to knock down outside shots with nobody around (a lil awk form, but whatever), runs well, good body control in the paint and on drives....we are seeing two COMPLETELY different things. He is much more fluid than Scott at this stage in their careers, but who knows if he develops Scott's skills and fundamentals. Davis already is better in a few uncoachable areas.
I can agree with you that Walton is taller, longer, and has a more fluid STROKE. In the few games clips I've seen of Walton's, he hasn't shot anything really contested or from range, so you may be right that his actual shot is better. However, I can only agree that his stroke is more fluid. While I completely disagree with Buffnik that Walton could be the state's best prospect when healthy, I do understand where he could be coming from. However, to say Walton is more athletic by a WIDE margin...really befuddled by that statement.
Not trying to knock Walton...again, really like the kid. Like most though, I do think Davis deserves to be a high-major, national recruit.
Medford M.
Well-Known Member
I think we actually agree on his game outside of his athleticism. I guess compare a guy like Davis to a guy like Harry Giles, who is also a 6'10" PF. Giles is what I'd call a great athlete.
Tough to tell with Colorado big men because there just aren't that many quality big guys in this part of the country. They may not face more than 3-4 guys all year close to their size in a HS season and not many more even in AAU ball.
Because of this they don't get a chance to develop against other big guys and are hard to evaluate.
Sometimes we get an exception. Josh and Wes came up in the same class and fairly close to each other geographically. They were also close enough physically to push each other and both benefited. There were also a couple of other big guys in the area at the time who were not at the same level but provided some competition as well. This situation was by far the exception for Colorado though.
In Walton I see a kid who has a high ceiling for a big man. Hard to say how much but it makes sense that his development has been slowed a lot by the injuries. What we are seeing now is just the beginning after he was sidelined. Athletic big guys are rare. I'd hate to see up pass up a guy who could have a high ceiling and a skill set to fit our system.
Because of this they don't get a chance to develop against other big guys and are hard to evaluate.
Sometimes we get an exception. Josh and Wes came up in the same class and fairly close to each other geographically. They were also close enough physically to push each other and both benefited. There were also a couple of other big guys in the area at the time who were not at the same level but provided some competition as well. This situation was by far the exception for Colorado though.
In Walton I see a kid who has a high ceiling for a big man. Hard to say how much but it makes sense that his development has been slowed a lot by the injuries. What we are seeing now is just the beginning after he was sidelined. Athletic big guys are rare. I'd hate to see up pass up a guy who could have a high ceiling and a skill set to fit our system.
dyemeduke
Well-Known Member
Fair, and I'm not trying to come off as a know-it-all, contrarian. Giles is great, and I agree a better athlete than Davis...I don't think anyone would debate that. He's #1 in the nation for a reason. Still, by bringing him up as a comparison, and thereby saying Davis is a "low level athlete," I think you're definitions are harsh, especially if we agree on what I wrote about his game.
It's like if I said to you, Derrick Favors is a great athlete, and you said no, he is not; Anthony Davis is a great athlete. Anthony Davis does not detract from Favors' athleticism, because while Anthony Davis raises the upper bar, the average is still the same.
Anyway - go Buffs, and hope we get Walton. Also hope DeRon does well for himself.
All true if he'd accepted that role, because those tools were there. He saw himself as a scorer, and that's first hand information.
Medford is close to the local HS hoops scene so if he thinks Walton has that sort of upside and athleticism, then I'm getting pretty excited. We need the in-state Gods to give us another big man.
Buffenuf
massive tool
Something happened to Hopkins before his Sr. year in HS. He went from a hands-down favorite for AZ POY to a kind of second fiddle. That caught my eye, but I didn't think too much of it at the time. Any deep background on that 'holic?
You cant say in one post "I'm a moneyball" aka advance stat numbers guy, and then when contradicted by those same advanced metrics, in the next post say do you *think* he was a good shooter. I mean you can do that, it is the internet but typically it helps to pick one and stick to it.
On Jaron for the record, he is an elite level athlete that early in his recruiting was ranked in the top 100 potentially top 50 in the country when projecting as a pointgaurd. The reason people backed off was when it became clear that Jaron fit at the 2 not the point, and the team who backed off was UofA. He closed ranked 119 in the country, #1 in the state of AZ and #21 in the country at his position. He had length, wheels, and could jump out of the gym - his jump-shot was clunky and not all that useful but people around here are too obsessed with smooth spot up shooters. As a team looking to break into the top-25, consistently make the dance, and place top third in a power conference you take Hopkins all day long.
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Tre Andres, who played at T.J., just committed to Loyola (Chicago). He averaged 17/9 at Trinidad last year. They list him at 6'8", 240. The last time I saw him, he was 6'5", 190. That was two years ago.