JRK1212
Troll
I dont like the system at all, but more or less I do think it works this way. Sure agendas come into play but I dont think their as rampant as you do.
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Conspiracy theory #2
- Thread starter sackman
- Start date
I dont like the system at all, but more or less I do think it works this way. Sure agendas come into play but I dont think their as rampant as you do.
The conference expansion stuff last summer told all of us what these conference commissioners and ADs are all about. It's a cutthroat business and it's unrealistic to believe that they become purists when there is so much money and prestige on the line.
let me guess you believe in unicorns too.
WakeFan
New Member
So, first, I am here because I am a Wake fan who has been checking in on your boards every once in a while to see what it looks like to have an invigorating, exciting new coach (and to see what you all are saying about Bzdelik of course).
While I absolutely understand your frustration and certainly think you guys deserved to be in (particularly over VCU), I want to note that there is certainly no Wake Forest bias against you. I assure you that Ron Wellman definitely wanted you to be in this tournament and probably argued vigorously on your behalf. Hardly an interview goes by without Bzdelik or Wellman mentioning the season you guys have had and trying to use it to justify the hire in light of the absolutely horrendous performance of our team (I know, ridiculous, right?).
Can't speak for Beebe, other than as someone who grew-up in Big 12 country, I think he is terrible at his job.
While I absolutely understand your frustration and certainly think you guys deserved to be in (particularly over VCU), I want to note that there is certainly no Wake Forest bias against you. I assure you that Ron Wellman definitely wanted you to be in this tournament and probably argued vigorously on your behalf. Hardly an interview goes by without Bzdelik or Wellman mentioning the season you guys have had and trying to use it to justify the hire in light of the absolutely horrendous performance of our team (I know, ridiculous, right?).
Can't speak for Beebe, other than as someone who grew-up in Big 12 country, I think he is terrible at his job.
Thanks for posting that. I figured as much but wasn't sure. It's only logical that Wellman and Bzdelik would want CU success. It helps justify the Bzdelik hire and maybe give him some breathing room if he can point to his way of going about a rebuilding process. I assumed that Wellman would have been one of the votes we would have gotten.
Unleash Hell
Well-Known Member
I can see this conspiracy a lot more than your first one Sacky
JRK1212
Troll
That makes sense. While it shouldnt justify wakes poor play this year, Bz did build this team. I would rather have Boyle as our coach but I think Bz deserves more credit for this year then boyle although no one in this forum or in the media wants to admit it. Our local paper ran an article a couple days ago and the headline was "Record 22-loss season a thing of the past thanks to Boyle." Whats that saying...its the joes not the x's and o's...something like that, and Bz brought in some quality players. Still not upset hes gone though....good luck.
BlackNGold
Club Member
Beebe gains nothing by keeping Colorado out. The NCAA tourney payout is over 5 years - the Big 12 would get the benefit of CU's appearance for the next 4 years and CU loses out on that. The conference gets $250,000 for each game CU would appear in the NCAAs.
how can BZ get more credit than Boyle. BZ couldn't get essentially the same team to the NIT tourney last year. The only new player we have this year is Roberson, which was a Boyle recruit.
BehindEnemyLines
beware the habu
Thanks for the post and welcome to AllBuffs.
JRK1212
Troll
I really dont want have this discusion again but whatever.
1. Bz brought in some guys named Burks and Higgins and Knuston and Relphorde, maybe you have heard of them? Without them we have the worst team in the Big 12. At the end of the day, talent, not coaching wins games. Bz brought that talent here. Im not saying Tad cant do that himself, but this years team is bzdeliks. (and by the that same logic the unc team that won the big sky is boyle's.)
2. I would consider Roberson a Bz recruit: http://www.allbuffs.com/showthread.php/59315-Andy-Katz-on-Bzdelik
3. Last year we almost went to the NIT, this year were in the NIT, Big difference. Basically everyone from last years team returned this year and is year were more experienced and thus better. Boyle had a better season with a better team, shocker. With this team, any coach would have done better then last years 15-17. Maybe not as good as boyle, but still good. Im not trying to slight tad, i like him a lot and think he will be succesfull here, but right now he is doing this with Bz players.
You are experiencing the "Boise St" effect that we just went through with hawk. GL with that.
So if coaching is not that important, how do you account for the extra wins this year. Last year we had 15 wins, this year we had 21 (with a chance for more). So do you attribute all those wins on Dre. Or by your logic is UNC in the tourney because of Boyle?
you already got smacked down for this yesterday. We don't care what you consider. Boyle was coach when Roberson committed. FACT If he liked Bz so much he would have went to wake.
and this year we almost went to the big dance. and we are now the #1 OVERALL seed in the NIT. There are very few changes to this team between this year and last year beside the loss of Tunks adding Roberson and a new coach. I'm thinking the biggest difference is the new coach.
The bottom line is we appreciate what BZ did in getting the players here and the practice facility and especially leaving so we can get a better coach, but it is silly to give all the credit to BZ for this season because we saw what he did last year with essentially he same players.
NCAA offensive rank: this year = 13th in the nation. Last year who knows.
What I find strange is you love giving BZ credit for all our accomplishments, what about his bang up job with the OOC schedule?
JRK1212
Troll
Im not giving Bz all the credit, just more then Boyle. But again I give Tad most of the credit for Northern Colorado's success this year. It works both ways.
Were actually only scoring 4 points per game more this year then last year. And we had a higher FG% last year. Defensivley were giving up the exact same number of ppg as last year.
ppg on how many possessions? Defensive effectiveness is more important.
Probably the biggest difference this year was rebounding. Bzdelik was very clear last year that he didn't see the Buffs being a decent rebounding team with its personnel and that we needed big JUCOs to come in. Well, we didn't get the JUCOs and Shane Harris-Tunks went down before the season started. Roberson was a find, but he developed as the season progressed. Early on, there were games he barely played. The big difference this year was a change in attitude that went along with a switch to man defense. That's 100% Boyle. Bzdelik was married to his zone concepts.
I give both Buzz and Boyle a lot of credit.
When Ricardo was finally shown the door the only thing that was going to stop the freefall of the program was the sudden stop at the bottom. The team underachieved on the floor which is a bad thing when you aren't getting sufficient talent to compete even at your best.
Buzz changed the attitude about basketball in Boulder. Players worked harder on both ends of the court, fundamentals started to matter, the team started to be bothered by certain loses that would have been taken for granted by Ricardo's teams before the game even started. On the down side Buzz was all about his system, the players as a part of what he wanted to do. I sensed that the players weren't having a lot of fun and sometimes playing was a chore. It does say something positive about the atmosphere in the program however that guys were sticking around for Buzz and a player of Burks status was ready to leave after losing Buzz as a coach. Nobody feels good when a coach tells you that he would rather be someplace else and leaves for another school, expecially for another school that is not a powerhouse like Wake. Good tradition but the program frankly is at a low point and Buzz didn't inherit an easy job fixing it.
Boyle took what Buzz built and added on to it. He managed to get Burks to stay and Burks now seems very glad he did stay. He managed to recruit an impact player in Roberson in the very short time he had and with the three California kids seems to have stepped up recruiting into a higher level overall than we have seen. The big thing has been his impact on the floor. Kids buy what he is selling, they play his game, they maximize their talents, and they have fun doing it. Losing is not accepted and winning any game is not out of the question.
This team is better than last years team, even with the gaping hole in the middle left by Harris-Trunks injury. Would they have been better than last year had Buzz stayed, maybe but I don't think they would be this good.
Thanks Buzz for what you did and thanks for leaving so we can now have Boyle.
When Ricardo was finally shown the door the only thing that was going to stop the freefall of the program was the sudden stop at the bottom. The team underachieved on the floor which is a bad thing when you aren't getting sufficient talent to compete even at your best.
Buzz changed the attitude about basketball in Boulder. Players worked harder on both ends of the court, fundamentals started to matter, the team started to be bothered by certain loses that would have been taken for granted by Ricardo's teams before the game even started. On the down side Buzz was all about his system, the players as a part of what he wanted to do. I sensed that the players weren't having a lot of fun and sometimes playing was a chore. It does say something positive about the atmosphere in the program however that guys were sticking around for Buzz and a player of Burks status was ready to leave after losing Buzz as a coach. Nobody feels good when a coach tells you that he would rather be someplace else and leaves for another school, expecially for another school that is not a powerhouse like Wake. Good tradition but the program frankly is at a low point and Buzz didn't inherit an easy job fixing it.
Boyle took what Buzz built and added on to it. He managed to get Burks to stay and Burks now seems very glad he did stay. He managed to recruit an impact player in Roberson in the very short time he had and with the three California kids seems to have stepped up recruiting into a higher level overall than we have seen. The big thing has been his impact on the floor. Kids buy what he is selling, they play his game, they maximize their talents, and they have fun doing it. Losing is not accepted and winning any game is not out of the question.
This team is better than last years team, even with the gaping hole in the middle left by Harris-Trunks injury. Would they have been better than last year had Buzz stayed, maybe but I don't think they would be this good.
Thanks Buzz for what you did and thanks for leaving so we can now have Boyle.
why can't you just present stats without trying to twist them. our PPG this year was good for 13th, last year we were 55th. So you make the 4 points sound like it isn't much but it was huge. Just so you know, 9 of our games were decided by four points or less.
JRK1212
Troll
Rebounding has definitely improved although were still ranked poorly nationally. Since we return all of our big men (including my boy trey eckloff) and add Tunk and Cain rebounding should be a strength next year. The big difference in W-L the last two years has been the ability to pull out close games. Some of that is Boyle, some is a byproduct of experience.
Agree with the change attitude, but as I said opponents ppg has been the same the past two years.
JRK1212
Troll
Ya 4 points are huge. As I just wrote winning close games has made all the difference this year. I wasint trying to twist the facts I only knew about the 4 points, not what our ranking was.
WakeFan
New Member
Was really hoping to not divert this thread with my post, but since it seems to have happened, let me just say as a Wake fan I have no confidence that Bzdelik has what it takes to build a good basketball program. From recruiting to fan relations to defensive coaching, he just doesn't have enough pieces of the puzzle.
The hire has cast a cloud over our program, and I will rejoice the day we reverse this decision, even though it's going to be a long climb back to the top half of a poor basketball conference.
Through my analysis of your program, I think he did some good at Colorado, but he wasn't taking you to the next level. He isn't taking anyone to the next level.
The hire has cast a cloud over our program, and I will rejoice the day we reverse this decision, even though it's going to be a long climb back to the top half of a poor basketball conference.
Through my analysis of your program, I think he did some good at Colorado, but he wasn't taking you to the next level. He isn't taking anyone to the next level.
I don't think anyone on here is going to dispute that either recruiting and fan relations are Bzz's strong suit. He's a good coach, but doesn't really have that charisma factor that seems to be cruicial in CBB these days. He's got a pretty good eye for talent but he's not going to jump through the hoops that are necessary to stroke the egos of the elite guys (or grease the right palms if you subscribe to the shadier practices that are rampant in CBB these days). He really had a tough time adapting to some of the recruiting and academic constraints that he had at CU in terms of the ability to get guys in, especially jucos, and we were all curious how he might do at a school that might have some more flexibility.
Probably not for prep recruits. For them, it wouldn't surprise me if your standards are higher. We have a hell of a time with JUCOs, though, since Colorado doesn't offer General Studies or Physical Education. It's rare that a JUCO has enough credits to be immediately eligible here. Also, and I'm sure this isn't the case at Wake, some of our Big 12 competition accepted "D" grades on transfer transcripts and that put us at a competitive disadvantage.
I totally agree with you. Bz did raise our talent level and did get the new practice facility going. But he wasn't going to take us much further. BTW, how many kids has he run off the team so far? Thats was his M.O. here.
Wake has a lot more tradition than we do. Thats probably a big reason for the snub which is a bunch of BS. However, it is really beginning to look like interest in CU baskeball is on the upswing. I think Tad Boyle will prove to have been a great choice at the perfect time. I was really pissed at Bz for throwing us under the bus but, at the same time, glad he was gone.
It's interesting that you bring up defensive coaching. Buzz was very highly respected in the NBA as a lead assistant and he was known as a guy who knew and could coach defense.
I think from a purely basketball standpoint Buzz may have made a mistake leaving the pro game. He was highly though of enough that he would never have a problem getting a job as a lead assistant, probably earning as much money as he makes as a college head coach. His personality seems much better suited for the pros and as an assistant he didn't have to deal with the media relations and the fan contact things he does as a college head man, especially at a school that identifies basketball as it's athletic identity like Wake.
I can understand him wanting to leave the pros for a couple of reasons, a college head coach is almost a king, answering only to an AD and university officers both of whom will usually do whatever they can to help him succeed to keep the pressure off themselves. As a college coach he also gets to spend a lot more nights at home than the pros and if he does the job he doesn't end up moving every couple of years.
On the other hand unless he can get things going the right way soon the seat at Wake is going to get very hot sooner than later. Buzz isn't exactly warm and fuzzy so recruits aren't going to flock to him unless he is winning and boosters aren't going to feel like good buddies enough to protect him from the masses.
I expect that Wake will be back to being a contender in basketball before a lot of other schools will be, I wonder if Buzz will be there to see it.
WakeFan
New Member
We will not accept a JUCO that would not have qualified initially. The only JUCO I know of us taking was a basketball player who went the JUCO route in order to gain more exposure. He would have qualified for Wake no problems initially, and, actually, quite likely would have been accepted through the normal application process, sans basketball (at least if the numbers I heard were accurate).
When reading the board after the initial hire, I saw the admissions standard stuff being repeated quite a bit. I rather doubt that played a role in Bzdelik's decision. If it did then he was probably not well-informed about Wake's standards for athletes.
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WakeFan
New Member
Really? That's just baffling. The players show no effort on defense and look to be absolutely clueless. Maybe his system is just too complicated for college ball?
I think he left the pro's because he didn't want to go back to being someone's #2, and with what seems to have gone down with the Nuggets (losing the team via questioning a management decision) he wasn't getting another NBA head job. I really don't think he has a passion for college basketball, and I think that's a big part of the problem.
He actually had the same problem when he was the head coach of the Nuggets, everyone admitted that the defensive schemes were good and should have worked. The problem was that as anyone who follows basketball knows, the first requirement for defense is effort and the second is want to. With college kids a lot of this comes from the motivation provided by the coach, Buzz could motivate the kids at the Air Force but those guys don't know anything else than hard work and effort, at CU not so much so. Apparently at Wake he just hasn't been able to push the buttons to get kids to have the desire and expend the energy to be effective defensive players.
Part of all this probably goes back to your comment on passion. When a guy is making job decisions based on everything but the job itself then the passion may be gone. Watching Buzz on the bench you don't get the impression that he takes it personally like you see with Tad Boyle or with guys like Bill Self at Kansas or a host of other to coaches.
WakeFan
New Member
I hate his damn golf clap.
The Wake board has pretty much been useless since December with the same people regurgitating the same stuff. I really appreciate your perspectives as I don't think any other fan base appreciates our plight quite as much as you all probably do.
Best of wishes in the NIT. I will be rooting for you all.