Games thread-Women's bball hosts #6/7 Stanford (Fri., 1/25, 7:00 MT) & Cal (Sunday, 1/27, 1:00)

[BeBe]

How important is Kennedy Leonard to this team? Well, here's an outsiders view:

Here's the most important part of that WNBA draft projection for me: See the section on this page called "Also in the first round mix"
https://highposthoops.com/2019/01/2...0-knock-on-effects-as-free-agency-arrives/14/
You don't get to be projected as a possible first round WNBA draft selection, especially at the guard position, without being damn good.

 

[WarBuff]

I'm curious to hear from some of the diehard women's fans on this board about this. I'll fully admit, I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about the program, but this is how I view it:

Lappe wasn't Embree bad, but she was bad. The program was in a very bad state. Payne brought in and changed the system, changed the types of players we were going after, and changed our recruiting footprint. This led to a few victories and a few losses, but overall progress has gone in the right direction - just maybe not at the speed that some thought it would. She also had some attrition - some good, some bad. Overall, we seem to be within +/- 10% of where people thought the program would be at this point in her tenure.

Does that line up with reality? Or am I just being generous with her tenure?

I am struggling with Payne. Here was a stat from April 2018:

Regular-Season Non-Conference Record (First 2 Seasons)
Coach Pct. W-L Seasons
JR Payne .864 19-3 2016-18
Linda Lappe .833 20-4 2010-12
Sox Walseth .791 34-9 1980-82
Jerry Zancanelli .579 11-8 1975-77
Rene Portland .576 19-14 1978-80

At the end of the day, we just seem to be treading water now with little improvement to be seen. Too many recruits are leaving, and that concerns me. There are only 2 seniors and 2 juniors, so there is a dearth of experience, and 3 of the 4 upper class players are guards. No bigs to speak of outside of Peanut. Jank plays hard, but is better at the wing. Give her credit for fighting inside, but we need taller and bigger bodies inside. Same with Hollingshed, she is too slender to fight with success inside the paint. She tries but is easily pushed around.
I will say they play their hearts out. Friday they gave Stanford all they could (with only 8 suited up). Watching them against Cal though was tough. Cal looked to have much better athletes making better plays. CU never quit, but outside of Mya, Alexis, and Finau, the scoring was missing. Cal also ran plays that we struggled to defend.
I would like to see Payne succeed obviously, but something needs to be figured out with the attrition. This team will sorely miss both Kennedy and Alexis, and I don't see the replacements sitting on the bench. As others have pointed out, we also need some inside presence. Next year will probably Payne's watershed, and I believe she knows it.

 

[Petr Giesick]

I'm curious to hear from some of the diehard women's fans on this board about this. I'll fully admit, I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about the program, but this is how I view it:

Lappe wasn't Embree bad, but she was bad. The program was in a very bad state. Payne brought in and changed the system, changed the types of players we were going after, and changed our recruiting footprint. This led to a few victories and a few losses, but overall progress has gone in the right direction - just maybe not at the speed that some thought it would. She also had some attrition - some good, some bad. Overall, we seem to be within +/- 10% of where people thought the program would be at this point in her tenure.

Does that line up with reality? Or am I just being generous with her tenure?

warbuff value of coach record in non-conference games?
schedules inconsistent year-to-year

conference record determines program success
conf record reflects competitiveness vs relevant conf opponents
buffs have been dominating soft non-conference schedule under lappe and payne
what was value added of that?

Conference Record (First 2 seasons coaching @CU & in conference)
sox walseth .900 18-2 1980-82 (intermountain)
rene portland .826 19-4 1978-80 (intermountain)
sox walseth .681 15-7 1981-83 (1st yr intermountain, 2nd yr big8)
ceal barry .531 17-15 1996-98 (1st two yrs in big12)
linda lappe .514 18-17 2011-13 (1st two yrs in pac12)
jerry zancanelli .384 10-16 1975-77 (intermountain)
linda lappe .352 12-22 2010-12 (1st yr big12, 2nd yr pac12)
jr payne .277 10-26 2016-18 (pac12)
kathy mconnell-miller .257 9-26 2005-07 (big12)
ceal barry .178 5-23 1983-85 (big8)
caroll hochsprung .166 2-10 1975 (intermountain, only coached 1 yr)

if we look at first 3 seasons (ignoring coaches that never coached at least 3 seasons) looks grim for payne
walseth .781 25-7 1980-83
lappe .480 25-27 2010-13
zancannelli .384 15-24 1975-78
barry .333 14-28 1983-86
mcconnell-miller .291 14-38 2005-08
payne .222 12-42 2016-19
giving buffs credit to actually beat wash and wash state and finish 2-16 this season but if buffs don't win those 2 games she's .185 and 10-44

goose an inauspicious start, worst by any buffs women's coach to ever coach min 3 seasons

lappe won at least 6 conf games in 5 seasons
lappe once went 13-5 in pac12 (2012-13)
lappe had one season winning fewer than 6 conf games
lappe took cu to postseason in 4 of 6 seasons
lappe took cu to WNIT quarterfinals three times
lappe took cu to ncaa tournament
payne has never won 6 conf games in a season even once
payne has never made the ncaa tournament
payne will have had 6 losing seasons in 10 years coaching
payne WNIT three times (first round exit, second exit, once made it to third round)

i hope payne doesn't revert to type and rises above career trajectory
firing lappe for payne thus far has been a mistake
not sure how else to frame it

they are playing so much better at times though, disappointing w-l record doesn't show it
won't win many games leaving three point shooter unguarded every pac12 game
maybe overloading 5v4 defense worked in summit, big sky or wcc
not in pac 12

 

[jsmilkst]

warbuff value of coach record in non-conference games?
schedules inconsistent year-to-year

conference record determines program success
conf record reflects competitiveness vs relevant conf opponents
buffs have been dominating soft non-conference schedule under lappe and payne
what was value added of that?

Conference Record (First 2 seasons coaching @CU & in conference)
sox walseth .900 18-2 1980-82 (intermountain)
rene portland .826 19-4 1978-80 (intermountain)
sox walseth .681 15-7 1981-83 (1st yr intermountain, 2nd yr big8)
ceal barry .531 17-15 1996-98 (1st two yrs in big12)
linda lappe .514 18-17 2011-13 (1st two yrs in pac12)
jerry zancanelli .384 10-16 1975-77 (intermountain)
linda lappe .352 12-22 2010-12 (1st yr big12, 2nd yr pac12)
jr payne .277 10-26 2016-18 (pac12)
kathy mconnell-miller .257 9-26 2005-07 (big12)
ceal barry .178 5-23 1983-85 (big8)
caroll hochsprung .166 2-10 1975 (intermountain, only coached 1 yr)

if we look at first 3 seasons (ignoring coaches that never coached at least 3 seasons) looks grim for payne
walseth .781 25-7 1980-83
lappe .480 25-27 2010-13
zancannelli .384 15-24 1975-78
barry .333 14-28 1983-86
mcconnell-miller .291 14-38 2005-08
payne .222 12-42 2016-19
giving buffs credit to actually beat wash and wash state and finish 2-16 this season but if buffs don't win those 2 games she's .185 and 10-44

goose an inauspicious start, worst by any buffs women's coach to ever coach min 3 seasons

lappe won at least 6 conf games in 5 seasons
lappe once went 13-5 in pac12 (2012-13)
lappe had one season winning fewer than 6 conf games
lappe took cu to postseason in 4 of 6 seasons
lappe took cu to WNIT quarterfinals three times
lappe took cu to ncaa tournament
payne has never won 6 conf games in a season even once
payne has never made the ncaa tournament
payne will have had 6 losing seasons in 10 years coaching
payne WNIT three times (first round exit, second exit, once made it to third round)

i hope payne doesn't revert to type and rises above career trajectory
firing lappe for payne thus far has been a mistake
not sure how else to frame it

they are playing so much better at times though, disappointing w-l record doesn't show it
won't win many games leaving three point shooter unguarded every pac12 game
maybe overloading 5v4 defense worked in summit, big sky or wcc
not in pac 12

Mostly I just want you to find the shift key and some punctuation.

 

[Bmixer]

I'm curious to hear from some of the diehard women's fans on this board about this. I'll fully admit, I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about the program, but this is how I view it:

Lappe wasn't Embree bad, but she was bad. The program was in a very bad state. Payne brought in and changed the system, changed the types of players we were going after, and changed our recruiting footprint. This led to a few victories and a few losses, but overall progress has gone in the right direction - just maybe not at the speed that some thought it would. She also had some attrition - some good, some bad. Overall, we seem to be within +/- 10% of where people thought the program would be at this point in her tenure.

Does that line up with reality? Or am I just being generous with her tenure?

If being winless in the pac 12 is reality then no it is not where I thought they would be. I do not think they would be winless if Leonard and Peanut would not have gotten hurt but still not seeing upper pac 12 type players brought in by J.R. Leonard, Robison and Q were all recruited by Lappe. IMO the biggest thing is her staff. No great recruiters that can bring in the better recruits. I think she may need to retool the staff and get at least one recruiter. I am on the fence about J.R. but getting crushed by Cal and being winless in the Pac 12 is not where I thought they would be.

 

[buffgal]

While Leonard, Robinson and Q were all Lappe recruits, there was an article recently with an interview with Kennedy. Kennedy was ready to transfer and JR had to re-recruit her to stay at CU.

I think, and I could be wrong, that Q reopened her recruiting and JR had to re-recruit her also.

All of the assistant coaches have been with JR at other coaching stops along the way.

I do think we are lacking in a good recruiter with P5 experience. We do not have a staff member with that kind of experience. Jeff Cammon was here for a year and came from a Pac-12 school. He got a head coaching job. I do think we need a more experienced staff.

I had hoped CU would have improved by now but I also know a program is not built overnight.

CU has not looked to hire a women's basketball coach from a successful P5 school since Coach Barry retired. The results are what they are because of that. It takes money to do that and I'm no longer certain the Athletic Department is willing to spend the money.

 

[Bmixer]

Lappe was not the answer for sure. After CU hired Tucker as a football coach, his recruits are much more on the size of P5 teams then McIntyre's were this year. This is what we need to see from Payne. I hope the freshman coming are a different breed. I hope this turns around. I enjoyed watching he team play but losing at home by 20 to every Pac 12 team is getting old.

 

[WarBuff]

They did well against the AZ teams, and played Stanford competitively at home.

 

[buffgal]

McConnell-Miller was in an impossible situation when it came to the fans. Some diehard fans wanted Jen Tubergen to be the coach and they were never going to accept KMM as the coach. Jen did not do well as Colorado State and was not the answer for CU either. I was not one of those fans, but some of my friends were.

When CU has hired new coaches, they have never met the parameters supposedly set forth by the search committee. Lappe's head coaching experience was at the DII level. My perception was was that KMM could recruit and not coach. At first I thought Lappe could coach, based on what she did at the beginning of her career with KMM's recruits. I quickly believed she could not recruit. By the end, I didn't think she was good at x's and o's either.

 

[Bmixer]

They did well against the AZ teams, and played Stanford competitively at home.

Imo that was the high point of the conference season. Should beat AZ at home. The Utah and Cal losses are what kill me. Give up 3 after 3 and no answers for it.

 

[Bmixer]

McConnell-Miller was in an impossible situation when it came to the fans. Some diehard fans wanted Jen Tubergen to be the coach and they were never going to accept KMM as the coach. Jen did not do well as Colorado State and was not the answer for CU either. I was not one of those fans, but some of my friends were.

When CU has hired new coaches, they have never met the parameters supposedly set forth by the search committee. Lappe's head coaching experience was at the DII level. My perception was was that KMM could recruit and not coach. At first I thought Lappe could coach, based on what she did at the beginning of her career with KMM's recruits. I quickly believed she could not recruit. By the end, I didn't think she was good at x's and o's either.

They had that guy here in Boulder and for the press conference then he bailed the do of the press conference so they had to hire Miller. Problem was nobody was going to replace Ceal with the old guard unless they were somebody with a name. The department has to take blame for the program too as many believe they do not support both mens and womens basketball properly. Still on the fence with J.R. but wish she had somebody on the bench with P5 experience. When Mahoney was hired for Volleyball, his first assistant was a former assistant at Nebraska and coached at Louisville and the other had played at Washington and was on the Texas staff, so they had a lot more knowledge of how to win at the higher level than J.R.s staff does

 

[buffgal]

Agree. I am one who thinks the Athletic Department does not support basketball, period. Not just women's basketball but basketball.

That was Kevin Borseth, who coaches at Green Bay. He actually left Green Bay for Michigan for 5 years but has returned to Green Bay.

 

[Bmixer]

yep, there is a lot of that coming out now on the mens side especially with the schedule this year. only 2 home games between Dec 8 and last night. Not good and events during basketball games and the such. The only thing they did for bball in the past few years imo is the video boards and sound system in the Event System. They need to make it more important as men's could help a lot with revenue and the women's has shown it can be good and not a total money pit

 

[Buffnik]

yep, there is a lot of that coming out now on the mens side especially with the schedule this year. only 2 home games between Dec 8 and last night. Not good and events during basketball games and the such. The only thing they did for bball in the past few years imo is the video boards and sound system in the Event System. They need to make it more important as men's could help a lot with revenue and the women's has shown it can be good and not a total money pit

The money being invested is mostly with an eye toward being able to make money off concerts and other events in that facility. It’s only sort of about basketball that the upgrades have been made.

 

[Goose]

The money being invested is mostly with an eye toward being able to make money off concerts and other events in that facility. It’s only sort of about basketball that the upgrades have been made.

Maybe we’ll finally get that Lady Gaga concert.