How long to turn a program around?

[Liver]

the answer to the original question is, as always, "it depends..."

with that said, in the case of turning around CU, i'll say that when a coach is sporting a whole 2 road wins in his tenure and he starts his 4th season with bad losses to 2 ****ty also-ran teams, then i would say the turnaround is suspect.

i am tired of the comparisons to 1986, too. i was in boulder then. yeah, that team started 0-4 but finished 6-1, including a win over the fuskers for the first time in like 20 years.

does anyone believe that THIS Buff team is LIKELY to finish out the season like that? i would love for it to happen, but...

also, in 1986, CU opened with a bad loss to csu, but then played very, very tough in narrow losses at oregon, at ohio state, and against arizona. all 3 of those teams were damned good at that time, unlike a minor league team like toledo.

i hope that this turnaround is underway, but i am not convinced. all the evidence, imho, seems to be pointing the other way. wvu, ut, and ku will make or break my theory. if this is like 1986, then the team will rally and play tough. if not, well, you know where it will end...

 

[DBT]

Even if you are short on talent I still want to see the team play solid, disciplined football. Take Bill Mallory as an example, he did not recruit well but he was a good coach. His teams would play tough and would beat teams when they made mistakes.

I hate the argument that you are trying to make and it really rings hollow to me. It totally ignores the fact that CU was totally handled 2 weeks in a row by teams that have recruited no where the talent CU has - the talent excuse does not cut it. CSU is lucky to get a 3 star recruit much less a 4 star. They started an entirely new defensive line, were without their best olineman and had a QB who had thrown 5 passes in college games before this season. How does the any of your argument apply to CSU or Toledo games?

I hope your not talking about CSU here. The Ewes have more combined starts by the O-lineman as a group than any other team in the country. That is CSU's strength.

I'm not arguing that as a whole team, our talent should be and is better than theirs. Just pointing out the line thing. And i agree that DBT's point doesn't justify losing to CSU and Toledo. He can save that for BigXII losses.

Screw the both of ya! :lol:

But I thought the thread was about "how long to turn a program around." Not about csu and toledo, who, I agree, we should have beaten. But I do admit that I way underestimated how our feshman/sophomore O and D lines would perform early, especially our D line vs. csu's O line. As for Toledo, I honestly believe that the hangover from the csu loss, the short week, and the fact that Toledo was on ESPN at their home stadium, had something to do with our poor performance.

But, you know what? the next 3 or 4 weeks will tell us a lot.

 

[BlackNGold]

Screw the both of ya! :lol:

But I thought the thread was about "how long to turn a program around." Not about csu and toledo, who, I agree, we should have beaten. But I do admit that I way underestimated how our feshman/sophomore O and D lines would perform early, especially our D line vs. csu's O line. As for Toledo, I honestly believe that the hangover from the csu loss, the short week, and the fact that Toledo was on ESPN at their home stadium, had something to do with our poor performance.

But, you know what? the next 3 or 4 weeks will tell us a lot.

If you thought the thread was about how to turn a program around then why did you go on and on with excuses for Hawkins. I don't buy the Toledo excuse. It is a coaches job to overcome those things. Their stadium holds about 26,000 and looked about 2/3s full.

 

[NW Buff]

Screw the both of ya! :lol:

But I thought the thread was about "how long to turn a program around." Not about csu and toledo, who, I agree, we should have beaten. But I do admit that I way underestimated how our feshman/sophomore O and D lines would perform early, especially our D line vs. csu's O line. As for Toledo, I honestly believe that the hangover from the csu loss, the short week, and the fact that Toledo was on ESPN at their home stadium, had something to do with our poor performance.

But, you know what? the next 3 or 4 weeks will tell us a lot.

I guess the question for me is, does a program turn around instantly? My gut says no. It's not like a light bulb going on. I expect to see progress along the way and I'm simply not seeing it at this point. Beating Wyoming is good but still seemed fairly mediocre. The reason people keep bringing up CSU and Toledo is simply that those games showed how far this program is from being turned around. It's still not just that we lost, it's how unbelievably bad we looked in losing.

Maybe Hawk is right. We are really close and it's just one or two little things that make the difference between getting pummeled by two middle of the pack programs from non-BCS conferences and competing in a BCS conference. He'll get his chance to prove it over the next month.

 

[FlatironsBuff]

I am unhappy with how the program is doing right now, but not sure how much more time I think he should have. If the team starts playing the best players and playing solid defense so we have half a chance, then I will have to reevaluate as the season progresses.

I am interested in the concept of the head coach making the big money and sub- contracting out to the assistant coaches. Maybe one way of getting around Tabor.

The thing I wonder is: does Hawk regret signing his son? I wonder if he realises how good the QBs in the Big 12 are, and how outgunned his son is. And I wonder if he realises that he will not get a true star QB in here until Junior is gone. It still does not circumvent the fact that the team has played slow. I am starting to wonder if that is due to the 'Watson Effect; i.e., playing too complicated scemes for the kids where they cannot effectively just go out and play on instincts.

 

[huskermike]

I'd think if you aren't seeing significant progress in 3 years you might want to shop around. (but I don't know what the hell I'm talking about so carry on.)

 

[navybuff]

I guess the question for me is, does a program turn around instantly? My gut says no. It's not like a light bulb going on. I expect to see progress along the way and I'm simply not seeing it at this point. Beating Wyoming is good but still seemed fairly mediocre. The reason people keep bringing up CSU and Toledo is simply that those games showed how far this program is from being turned around. It's still not just that we lost, it's how unbelievably bad we looked in losing.

Maybe Hawk is right. We are really close and it's just one or two little things that make the difference between getting pummeled by two middle of the pack programs from non-BCS conferences and competing in a BCS conference. He'll get his chance to prove it over the next month.

I think top coaches can make a difference. Maybe the professional ranks are different.

Bill Parcells, Dan Reeves, Mike Holmgren, Dick Vermeil and Baseball, has Joe Torre, the Rockies this year, etc.

A great coach, I believe, can take a crappy group and make them a 500 team. If he walks in on a team with underutilized talent, he can make them champs.

 

[calibuff81]

Hasn't it already been long enough?

 

[Chilly]

the answer to the original question is, as always, "it depends..."

with that said, in the case of turning around CU, i'll say that when a coach is sporting a whole 2 road wins in his tenure and he starts his 4th season with bad losses to 2 ****ty also-ran teams, then i would say the turnaround is suspect.

i am tired of the comparisons to 1986, too. i was in boulder then. yeah, that team started 0-4 but finished 6-1, including a win over the fuskers for the first time in like 20 years.

does anyone believe that THIS Buff team is LIKELY to finish out the season like that? i would love for it to happen, but...

also, in 1986, CU opened with a bad loss to csu, but then played very, very tough in narrow losses at oregon, at ohio state, and against arizona. all 3 of those teams were damned good at that time, unlike a minor league team like toledo.

i hope that this turnaround is underway, but i am not convinced. all the evidence, imho, seems to be pointing the other way. wvu, ut, and ku will make or break my theory. if this is like 1986, then the team will rally and play tough. if not, well, you know where it will end...

Not to take away from your point. But Oregon was not a good team this year. I think the lost like 5 or 6 in a row after beating CU.

 

[LABuff]

Here's the deal. Squawk says that he's laying a foundation. Well, maybe he's the guy to do just that. Let him keep doing it till his contract is up, and then, go out and hire a real coach. Let it be known that the position will be available at the end of his last season and there should be a real nice group of potential coaches to chose from by then.

 

[DBT]

If you thought the thread was about how to turn a program around then why did you go on and on with excuses for Hawkins. I don't buy the Toledo excuse. It is a coaches job to overcome those things. Their stadium holds about 26,000 and looked about 2/3s full.

Dude, go **** yourself. That is, if your dick is long enough.

 

[DBT]

Here is my prayer. "Dear God, I know I've been a sinner. I don't go to church like I should. But I've supported Dan Hawkins, who is supported by Bill McCartney who supports You. So, dear Lord, my God, please pour out your blessings on Dan Hawkins. According to AZ, he loves You! And, God, I will give you rep if you, in Your infinite mercy, You allow CU to beat West Virginia AND Texas. Hey, God, rep is coming!!

 

[BlackNGold]

Dude, go **** yourself. That is, if your dick is long enough.

I guess an intelligent reply is beyond you. If you want to defend Hawkins that is your right but being a dickweed about does not enhance your position. You are just going on my ignore list.

 

[DBT]

I guess an intelligent reply is beyond you. If you want to defend Hawkins that is your right but being a dickweed about does not enhance your position. You are just going on my ignore list.

Ignore this, "dickweed." :finger2:

 

[rynobuff]

:hippie:

 

[buffs04]

I am curious as to what kind of culture is being changed so slowly and gradually at CU football. A culture of excuses? A culture of no accountability?

Hawkins and Hawkins-backers have trotted out one tired, trite cliche after another to excuse this man's repeated failures. All of the players on the team, virtually, are his recruits. All of the staff is either here because he selected them or because he selected to retain them.

So, what groundwork is being laid? What foundation is being built? What culture is being changed from what to what, exactly, and what does any of this nonsense mean in any way beyond hollow rhetoric and complete, unadulterated bull****? We are talking about football here. It is a physical game, not a spiritual journey.

We always here that such and such a player "is such a warrior" and "oh, he has so much heart" to justify the playing time they receive over their more talented and capable teammates. None of these statements have any actual meaning in reality, and it is really just a big fat load of garbage that is used to justify Hawkins obsessions with promoting the little guy to the detriment of a team.

We want to talk about foundations being built? Why are none of the major players on this team getting any better ever? Of the blue chips recruited here that have actually hit the field, none of them have even come close to their potential. Our quarterback has appeared to actually get worse every year, if not every game. Our WR corps is still pathetically and embarrassingly anemic to the point that they make Toledo's program look like they are trotting out the second comings of prime Randy Moss. None of the highly regarded OL we have recruited have panned out yet, regardless of how many snaps they have played. Of our two highly regarded RB's, one was inexplicably switched to safety to make way for Demetrius Sumler to carry the ball on 75% of snaps instead of a mere 66% of snaps. The other isn't allowed to play for a variety of reasons, despite flashes of brilliance.

Where is the improvement? Where is the development? For all this talk about culture changing and foundation building there sure is one hell of a big fat zero going on in the player development department.

As far as I am concerned, this kind of rhetoric has been stale for over a year now and, frankly, I am starting to find it insulting to my intelligence when I continue to hear it repeated ad nauseum. Most of these sophomoric remarks are more suited to becoming out of the mouth of an over-eager freshmen in a 1000-level philosophy class than out of the mouth of a highly-compensated football coach.

 

[somebody]

:yeahthat: This team's fundamentals suck.

I think we've improved raw talent, but it's still raw, and showing little sign of improvement. They are young yet, and it doesn't help changing out coaches, but I guess we were just better before because we had the old DL and DBs and stayed in the games on a much better defense. I'm all for giving a guy 5 years, as long as you see the benefit of his coaching. Where's the benefit? Surely not in our WRs...