What's new

Realignment Starting - UConn

ahoelsken

Well-Known Member
There is exactly a 0.00% chance the B1G would ever invite West Virginia.
Didn't you say that about Rutgers too?

Because conference expansion still relies on university presidents. WVU falls short of the standards of the Big Ten is looking for... and it is not close.
I think a number of us said the same thing about the Nubs nine years ago. My main point is this-WVU moving to a league that makes more geographical sense for them is the only move of note that'll get made this go-around. Even with the LHN's issues, the Big 12 still has better TV deals than we do, and is still in better shape as a league than we are for a number of reasons-with Larry Scott and the issues at the conference's two flagship programs (USC football and UCLA basketball) at the forefront.
 
Last edited:

BerkeleyBuff

Club Member
Club Member
Didn't you say that about Rutgers too?



I think a number of us said the same thing about the Nubs nine years ago. My main point is this-WVU moving to a league that makes more geographical sense for them is the only move of note that'll get made this go-around. Even with the LHN's issues, the Big 12 still has better TV deals than we do, and is still in better shape as a league than we are for a number of reasons-with Larry Scott and the issues at the conference's two flagship programs (USC football and UCLA basketball) at the forefront.
As astounding as this may sound, considering we're talking about the ****ers... WVU actually isn't even close to them, academically. ****braska at least was AAU at the time they entered; WVU will never come close to that.
 

BerkeleyBuff

Club Member
Club Member
Didn't you say that about Rutgers too?
.
What? No, I never said that, nor would have said that. Was that a sarcastic question, or were you thinking of another poster? Rutgers is an AAU institution in an enormous media market; I think they were actually one of the names most people agreed the B1G was looking into.

The reason WVU will never come close to sniffing the B1G is purely an academic thing. They are miles and miles below what the B1G would consider.
 

BehindEnemyLines

beware the habu
Club Member
UT and OU have a long standing connection and the alumni of both schools have strong feeling for that connection. Even when UT was in the SWC OU-UT was bigger than any other rivalries each school had.

The LHN was in part done to keep the merger into the PAC12 from happening (see link below). When the current conference media contracts are up adding those two schools to the PAC would give a media market strong enough to match any in the nation.

Disney is trying to cut the cost of running ESPN. The LHN has been a huge drain on the network, it just hasn't been able to find the footing to get close to breaking even. Texas has them over the barrel getting a 20 year deal out of them but I could very easily see them willing to shell out the money needed to cut their losses and move on.

Remember that a key part of this whole thing is Texas egos and their desire to be seen as on par with Cal, Stanford, UCLA, and the rest of the PAC12 as an academic university, the B12 doesn't do that for them.
The uTerus /A&M connection is what nixed the Pac expansion in the 90's. If that rivalry can be split then I suspect the same could happen between the boomers/whorns .

However, they make a strong dance tandem with all they bring to the table as a couple. I'm surprised we haven't heard more rumors of conferences courting them.
 

Jalapeno

Exploring Interesting Worlds
Club Member
I think the B1G will go to 16 thru KU & OU.

But I’ve heard rumblings that them going to 18 or 20 isn’t off the table. They really want UT and ND while having the resources to buy out the deals they’d need to for that to happen.
18 team conferences make sense. Round robin play in both divisions with four home and four road games.
 

onealcd

Club Member
Club Member
I've always wondered if Colorado has been on the radar for the Big-10, especially with ****braska on board. It would give them a growing western market which they desperately need.

Ultimately I think it would be hard on recruiting but the money would be huge.
 

onealcd

Club Member
Club Member
Severing our recruiting and alumni base would be not good. Not good at all.
Totally agree, but man that would be a lot of money for the school to pass up.

Ultimitely I just want some Texas schools added to the Pac-12 for recruiting purposes and I will be happy.
 

Jalapeno

Exploring Interesting Worlds
Club Member
The former Pac-8 schools can simply have Hawaii in their division while CU, Utah, UA, and ASU join up with five other schools for the Pac-18 and San Diego State would be more than happy to be part of that eastern division. Boise State, Frenso State, & BYU wouldn't make the cut since their academics are not up to par.

Hawaii might beat San Diego State to the punch when it comes to a new stadium and SDSU is supposed to open theirs in like 2022.

https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...ces-plans-for-new-stadium-location/1884850834

The draw of a 18 team conference would be great for basketball. You'd face just one team per season. If the Pac-18 wants 20 conference games, CU would play Utah and one other school twice.

Texas probably goes independent and parks their Oly sports in C-USA.
 

Not Sure

Club Member
Club Member
I understand the justification for keeping the stadium basically in the same place in Honolulu, but I hate off campus stadiums. I would be curious where UH Manoa landed on their site selection scorecard.
 

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
The former Pac-8 schools can simply have Hawaii in their division while CU, Utah, UA, and ASU join up with five other schools for the Pac-18 and San Diego State would be more than happy to be part of that eastern division. Boise State, Frenso State, & BYU wouldn't make the cut since their academics are not up to par.

Hawaii might beat San Diego State to the punch when it comes to a new stadium and SDSU is supposed to open theirs in like 2022.

https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...ces-plans-for-new-stadium-location/1884850834

The draw of a 18 team conference would be great for basketball. You'd face just one team per season. If the Pac-18 wants 20 conference games, CU would play Utah and one other school twice.

Texas probably goes independent and parks their Oly sports in C-USA.
Pac-12 needs to stop worrying so much about current academic ranks of its members.

I can understand a cultural fit of it being a university committed to research intensity. So I can understand why BYU would not be considered but they're also the first school I'd reach out to and have a conversation about what commitments they would be willing to make on academic freedom & research intensity. Work something out.

I see no reason to automatically reject Boise State, let alone schools like UNLV, SDSU, FSU, UNM, UNR, USU, UH or CSU when looking at our region. If they don't make the cut for other reasons other than politics, I understand. But we're talking about an athletic conference here. If it's a cultural fit as a university, a geographic fit, has facilities and infrastructure for this level, and the final analysis is that Pac-12 expansion would be a positive thing & that the particular school would bring something the conference doesn't currently have through its additions... then I'll be really upset if a school is rejected because of something irrelevant like it not yet reaching Tier 1 research intensity.

The biggest joke to me in the academic discussion is that many schools (including Boise State) have been Pac-12 members for specific sports like wrestling where the Pac-8/10/12 has needed them in order to be able to have enough schools to have a conference affiliation. They can be members for specific sports but not all sports. Huh? That tells me that academics is a bull**** standard that only matters in proportion to awareness and perception of compromising.

Finally, I look back at the old Big 8. We had AAU members with CU, NU, ISU, KU and MU. Then we had OU, which wasn't too far behind. All of us lived in the same conference just fine with KSU and OSU, which were agricultural schools that had lower academic standards and lower research intensity. Likewise, we would live in the same conference just fine with BYU and Boise State.
 

ahoelsken

Well-Known Member
What? No, I never said that, nor would have said that. Was that a sarcastic question, or were you thinking of another poster? Rutgers is an AAU institution in an enormous media market; I think they were actually one of the names most people agreed the B1G was looking into.

The reason WVU will never come close to sniffing the B1G is purely an academic thing. They are miles and miles below what the B1G would consider.
Somewhat, but I think conversation about the B1G and academics was being had on here relative to the University of ****braska when they joined. They were AAU, but they were far behind the bulk of that league at the time they joined it academically if memory serves.
 

DeNiro

My Dixie Wrecked
Club Member
PAC 12 needs to be aggressive and go after OU, Texas, Houston and KU. Kansas fits that central time zone expansion too, we need the basketball shot in the arm. I don't really care if we get lumped in a division with a lot of them, $ talks and I don't want the conference to be an afterthought. Could take Texas Tech in place of Houston, but the Houston market is more desirable and they've shown they want a seat at the big boy table.

Keep the offices in California to keep Texas in check.

Let Texas keep the Longhorn network as it is, but let them have the lion share of the cost to keep it Texas only.

If we go to 18 then we can fill with Boise St, SDSU, Hawaii, UNLV, UNM or even CSU because they will all jump at the opportunity.
 

Not Sure

Club Member
Club Member
Ultimately, I wonder if at some point we don’t all revert back to geographical alignments. The network TV money won’t be there to the extent it is now, so conferences will need to figure out how best to generate revenue in other ways. So using Boise as an example, their TV market won’t be as important as it once was.
 

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
Somewhat, but I think conversation about the B1G and academics was being had on here relative to the University of ****braska when they joined. They were AAU, but they were far behind the bulk of that league at the time they joined it academically if memory serves.
B1G wants AAU members, with preference to state land grant universities.

So they'd consider UVA and UNC. They'd consider KU and Mizzou. They'd consider CU. ISU will be in the conversation.

They would make exceptions for Notre Dame and Oklahoma because they're research intensive enough to pass the red face test while being 2 of the most valuable sports properties in the nation.

They will not consider KSU, OSU or a lot of other schools like WVU that border current geography but are not AAU members.

Last, due to the media markets and recruiting grounds along with being excellent fits on the academic research intensity side -- the B1G might very well compromise on geographic footprint by considering UT and Georgia Tech.
 

BerkeleyBuff

Club Member
Club Member
Somewhat, but I think conversation about the B1G and academics was being had on here relative to the University of ****braska when they joined. They were AAU, but they were far behind the bulk of that league at the time they joined it academically if memory serves.
They're not academically equal to Michigan by any means, but they're not an order of magnitude down like WVU (as an example) would be. They're certainly good enough to not bring down the average prestige of the conference, and the B1G's network model at the time was heavily based on and looking for carriage fees in big markets, which Rutgers could provide. I remember not being shocked they got picked up. They do still feel like an odd fit athletically of course.
 

Jalapeno

Exploring Interesting Worlds
Club Member
I understand the justification for keeping the stadium basically in the same place in Honolulu, but I hate off campus stadiums. I would be curious where UH Manoa landed on their site selection scorecard.
Tell me where a football stadium would have gone in this photo which is the UH campus and their athletic facilities. It would be pretty tight if they put it where the track is at which also is the football team's turf practice field.

upload_2019-6-24_9-31-41.png

Traffic in Honolulu sucks and the UH campus is served by just one highway while multiple highways serve the Aloha Stadium location. They are also building a new light rail system (over budget at this point) and that football stadium is to have a stop if I'm not mistaken. The golf course mentioned is south of the campus near the water.
 

Not Sure

Club Member
Club Member
Tell me where a football stadium would have gone in this photo which is the UH campus and their athletic facilities. It would be pretty tight if they put it where the track is at which also is the football team's turf practice field.

View attachment 30018

Traffic in Honolulu sucks and the UH campus is served by just one highway while multiple highways serve the Aloha Stadium location. They are also building a new light rail system (over budget at this point) and that football stadium is to have a stop if I'm not mistaken. The golf course mentioned is south of the campus near the water.
I get it. UH Manoa doesn’t have any buildable space. Transportation to and from would be a nightmare. Those facts change nothing about my statement.

I hate off campus stadiums and I would be curious where UH Manoa landed on their scorecard.
 

Buffnik

Real name isn't Nik
Club Member
Junta Member
Ultimately, I wonder if at some point we don’t all revert back to geographical alignments. The network TV money won’t be there to the extent it is now, so conferences will need to figure out how best to generate revenue in other ways. So using Boise as an example, their TV market won’t be as important as it once was.
I've thought about how important it is to have rivalry games that gets local fans excited, gets stadiums filled, gets media coverage organically, and - because of all the other stuff with the natural story lines - has national media value when both teams are good.

As we move into more cord cutting and PPV game selection, I can see "expanding the media footprint" becoming less important after that consideration drove the last round of realignment.

Let's take, for example, a scenario where BYU and CSU were added. That automatically adds a game for CU and the Utes that will be a sold out stadium in home years and a heavily attended road game in other years. Tons of fan engagement along with those being games the national carriers will automatically circle in the preseason to keep an eye on. Further, the same dynamics happen with the basketball matchups and other sports while significantly cutting travel costs & difficulty for the whole conference. (Instead of a Denver-SLC trip, it's one Denver flight or one SLC fight for these non-football roadies.)
 

ahoelsken

Well-Known Member
Pac-12 needs to stop worrying so much about current academic ranks of its members.

I can understand a cultural fit of it being a university committed to research intensity. So I can understand why BYU would not be considered but they're also the first school I'd reach out to and have a conversation about what commitments they would be willing to make on academic freedom & research intensity. Work something out.

I see no reason to automatically reject Boise State, let alone schools like UNLV, SDSU, FSU, UNM, UNR, USU, UH or CSU when looking at our region. If they don't make the cut for other reasons other than politics, I understand. But we're talking about an athletic conference here. If it's a cultural fit as a university, a geographic fit, has facilities and infrastructure for this level, and the final analysis is that Pac-12 expansion would be a positive thing & that the particular school would bring something the conference doesn't currently have through its additions... then I'll be really upset if a school is rejected because of something irrelevant like it not yet reaching Tier 1 research intensity.

The biggest joke to me in the academic discussion is that many schools (including Boise State) have been Pac-12 members for specific sports like wrestling where the Pac-8/10/12 has needed them in order to be able to have enough schools to have a conference affiliation. They can be members for specific sports but not all sports. Huh? That tells me that academics is a bull**** standard that only matters in proportion to awareness and perception of compromising.

Finally, I look back at the old Big 8. We had AAU members with CU, NU, ISU, KU and MU. Then we had OU, which wasn't too far behind. All of us lived in the same conference just fine with KSU and OSU, which were agricultural schools that had lower academic standards and lower research intensity. Likewise, we would live in the same conference just fine with BYU and Boise State.
I'd argue Utah isn't exactly a "culture fit" either-Salt Lake is easily the most conservative metropolis in this part of the country, and 35% of their student body is Mormon (https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/thirty-six-percent-students-university-utah-mormon). That's a pretty conservative school, and they only became a candidate for the Pac 12 when the five then-Big 12 schools other than us that would have made up the Pac 16 in 2010 decided not to join this conference.

As far as BYU-why isn't more consideration given to inviting them in football only? They've got their own ESPN deal that could easily be merged with ours, they play as many as five Pac 12 teams a year as an independent (Since we've been in the league, they've played or have games scheduled with every P12 school but us I think), we're not dealing with the fact that they can't play on Sundays in their other sports by inviting them in football only, and we're definitely improving our brand in football from a TV contract perspective and also bowl games come 2030.
 

ahoelsken

Well-Known Member
I've thought about how important it is to have rivalry games that gets local fans excited, gets stadiums filled, gets media coverage organically, and - because of all the other stuff with the natural story lines - has national media value when both teams are good.

As we move into more cord cutting and PPV game selection, I can see "expanding the media footprint" becoming less important after that consideration drove the last round of realignment.

Let's take, for example, a scenario where BYU and CSU were added. That automatically adds a game for CU and the Utes that will be a sold out stadium in home years and a heavily attended road game in other years. Tons of fan engagement along with those being games the national carriers will automatically circle in the preseason to keep an eye on. Further, the same dynamics happen with the basketball matchups and other sports while significantly cutting travel costs & difficulty for the whole conference. (Instead of a Denver-SLC trip, it's one Denver flight or one SLC fight for these non-football roadies.)
If CSU gets a shot to join a P5 league, its going to be the Big 12. There's nothing they bring to the P12 that the league didn't get when we joined it.
 

MtnBuff

Not allowed in Barzil 2
Club Member
Pac-12 needs to stop worrying so much about current academic ranks of its members.

I can understand a cultural fit of it being a university committed to research intensity. So I can understand why BYU would not be considered but they're also the first school I'd reach out to and have a conversation about what commitments they would be willing to make on academic freedom & research intensity. Work something out.

I see no reason to automatically reject Boise State, let alone schools like UNLV, SDSU, FSU, UNM, UNR, USU, UH or CSU when looking at our region. If they don't make the cut for other reasons other than politics, I understand. But we're talking about an athletic conference here. If it's a cultural fit as a university, a geographic fit, has facilities and infrastructure for this level, and the final analysis is that Pac-12 expansion would be a positive thing & that the particular school would bring something the conference doesn't currently have through its additions... then I'll be really upset if a school is rejected because of something irrelevant like it not yet reaching Tier 1 research intensity.

The biggest joke to me in the academic discussion is that many schools (including Boise State) have been Pac-12 members for specific sports like wrestling where the Pac-8/10/12 has needed them in order to be able to have enough schools to have a conference affiliation. They can be members for specific sports but not all sports. Huh? That tells me that academics is a bull**** standard that only matters in proportion to awareness and perception of compromising.

Finally, I look back at the old Big 8. We had AAU members with CU, NU, ISU, KU and MU. Then we had OU, which wasn't too far behind. All of us lived in the same conference just fine with KSU and OSU, which were agricultural schools that had lower academic standards and lower research intensity. Likewise, we would live in the same conference just fine with BYU and Boise State.
BYU is an absolute non-starter. Not only are they not a comparable research institution, not only do they have issues with academic freedom, they have a current and past culture that would never allow a yes voter from the California State schools (Cal, UCLA) Stanford, Washington or Oregon. The history of the LDS Church and the current stances on issues such as racial equality, sexual orientation, abortion, and gender equality make it impossible. The much more socially and politically conservative B12 would not have those same issues.

The rest of your list of potential western additions all have an equally large problem. That is that they would cost the current membership substantial amounts of money.

How much value do the Nevada schools or for that matter any of the current MWC schools add in terms of conference TV contracts. None of them bring in close to enough cover the share that they would be receiving thus making the shares for the current members smaller.

Lets assume, and these numbers are not accurate they are just for examples sake, that the total current distributions of conference revenues are $360 million, or $30 million per school. We then add Boise and UNLV. With the additions of those markets the total value of the Conference media package goes up but neither is a significant market nationally so it only goes up to $378 million. The result is the payout per school on equal division drops to $27 million. Boise and UNLV are thrilled to get $23 million more than they were but everyone else loses $3 million in the deal.

Other than BYU none of the other schools you mentioned can come close to being even revenue neutral for the conference.

On the other hand if you can get a combination of Texas and Oklahoma you add two schools with national drawing power, you also make second and third tier rights in Texas, Oklahoma, and the surrounding areas must see TV. Even if you take two other schools along with them (pick from KU, OSU [hard fit due to academics,] TTU, or longshots aTm or Arkansas) and you enhance revenue to the point that each existing school probably goes up at least $3-5 million.

The PAC again due to culture will not take a religious school so eliminate Baylor, SMU, TCU. There is no way they would take a school with the academics of KSU.
 
Top