I think FSU wins the East. They were a nightmare defensively.
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Tad Boyle
- Thread starter pcbuff
- Start date
agree -- the open 3's that Wright in particular passed on were uncharacteristic for CU
I am painfully rewatching the game and we could have gone straight to the hoop many many times once we got past the trap, but we legitimately stopped the ball and tried everything to get Kin the ball, even though it was obvious that he was immediately being closely guarded and they were even looking at doubling him. Then, all the times that we put the ball in Battey's or Walton's hands out at the top of the three-point line makes us essentially dead in the water. Honestly, we were outcoached at the beginning of the game, we were not in a good mindset with the shooting or other things in their heads, and we never adjusted. And YET, we were still withing 1 point!!! We would have been better playing without any game plan and just let them play street ball.
Just so I'm clear on this...
You're now saying that if Tad would have just sat at the bench with crossed arms and let them play we would have won?
Seems to conflict with your previous commentary.
There is so much to like about Tad as a HC. He truly cares about his players, he is the definition of a role model and mentor. He is a great lead for CU in general. He has a good knowledge of the motion offense and the metrics on D he stresses are key to winning games.
There is, however, a blueprint for beating his teams. Teams that employ an aggressive defense on the perimeter, thus not allowing the ball movement required, create problems for that offense. Arizona is a prime example, Oregon and Oregon State have done the same. UCLA did the same in the first matchup but for some reason changed strategies defensively in the second matchup and lost.
It would be great to see Tad use back screens and back cuts several times when teams play aggressively on the perimeter. A few buckets in a row off of back cuts would force the defense to play closer to the paint, thus opening up the motion offense. Employing a second offensive set (perhaps the old UCLA John Wooden offense that is not reliant on perimeter, rather is based on movement down low) would at least mix it up. This is not an isolated blueprint this year, this has been the same issue. This is not me drilling Tad, I love his uptick in recruiting as well and I absolutely respect him. However, the program will not get deep into the big dance unless Tad can make in-game changes to defenses that pressure his offense on the perimeter.
There is, however, a blueprint for beating his teams. Teams that employ an aggressive defense on the perimeter, thus not allowing the ball movement required, create problems for that offense. Arizona is a prime example, Oregon and Oregon State have done the same. UCLA did the same in the first matchup but for some reason changed strategies defensively in the second matchup and lost.
It would be great to see Tad use back screens and back cuts several times when teams play aggressively on the perimeter. A few buckets in a row off of back cuts would force the defense to play closer to the paint, thus opening up the motion offense. Employing a second offensive set (perhaps the old UCLA John Wooden offense that is not reliant on perimeter, rather is based on movement down low) would at least mix it up. This is not an isolated blueprint this year, this has been the same issue. This is not me drilling Tad, I love his uptick in recruiting as well and I absolutely respect him. However, the program will not get deep into the big dance unless Tad can make in-game changes to defenses that pressure his offense on the perimeter.
My opinion is that it appears we worked on breaking the press, then getting the ball to Kin, and then settling into our half-court offense and looking for shots near the end of the shot clock. What was missing from that was a wide-open chance to go to the rim 4 on 3 a lot of times while they worried a lot about Kin.
Then, we were not sharp enough to run said half-court offense and had a lot of passed deflected and stolen. Additionally, when we bring Battey and/or Walton out to the top of the three-point line to hold the ball and handoff to players cutting off screens, we have no low presence and we were not that effective anyway.
If that was the coach's plan, it was ineffective. Then, Jabari came in and went freestyle which was too bad cause that threw things off more.
So, Tad devised a plan that did not work and did not take advantage of early available points.
Crossed Arms is body language by coaches or leaders that show their players that they are frustrated, nervous, or uncertain of what they are doing. I may be totally full of **** and that is just fine if you think so, but I have been to a lot of coaching courses and events, and it is something to be aware of as a coach. If it works for Tad, and the big fat checks clear, then sure, I am full of ****.
As is usually the case, it seems like most of the criticisms are in some weird vacuum where the other team does not also have scouting reports or competent coaches. This is not to say Tad is above any criticism, I'm as a big of a Tad fan as there is on this board, and for example I think, in general, his out of bounds plays suck. Leonard Hamilton is an excellent coach, with some really good players, and they played very well. I guarantee there was absolutely no surprises on any sets, or plays, or plans etc. from either side in that Florida State game. Florida State simply played better.
oneanddone
New Member
Let me preface this post by saying that this was Tad's most successful year as a coach. The team and players got better:
Personnel
Tad has a habit of favoring older players rather than the most talented. There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to this strategy over the course of a season or career. But March Madness is the time to put the players who-are-currently-playing-the-best on the floor. The way to evaluate players is not only who is accruing the most stats, but who is making the best decisions (fewest mistakes). Horne for instance has not been playing well. He’s been understandably frustrated after his shots have been not been falling (even when halfway down). And his frustration has led to poor shot selection, bad defense, and turnovers. Walker, on the other hand, has been playing very well. Yet Walker’s minutes were limited against FSU.
Schwartz is a streaky player. Both offensively and defensively. He turns the ball over a lot, through the wrong type of aggression—leading to charges and bad passes. Yet he starts most every game and gets major minutes compared to more efficient players such as Kee or Walker (or even Da Silva)
GamePlan
There’s a recipe to beat FSU. Georgia Tech demonstrated it. We have the personnel to beat FSU—we’re a more talented team than GTU.
The way to counter a full court press is through quick decision-making and rapid passing. Given the overplay, there will always be an open shot (especially from 3pt line) on the other end of the floor. We have the shooters to make FSU pay for their press.
FSU pursued an obvious strategy against CU. Full court press, double Kin, and push shooters off the 3pt line. This induces major weaknesses in their defense. 7 to 10ft jump shots will be wide open. We have the personnel to hit these reliably. Once five jump shots are made, either FSU continues this strategy or they change it up.
Given how hot Walker was against GT (and in the weeks before his injury), he should have started and played the whole game. Either he will serve as an effective decoy or he can exploit the FSU defense strategy. He is more athletic and better shooter than Walton—not to mention his ability to drive and cut.
FSU’s gameplan further exploited the weaknesses in Tad’s offensive strategy—lack of back cuts, movement, and downblock and cross screening for forwards.
Ironically, this is the one time in the year when the primitive weave concept would have actually worked well—yet was not employed. The commentators mentioned the fact that CU was failing to create any counter cyclical ball rotation.
This is the primary lineup we needed to beat FSU: Kin, Kee, Parquet, Walker, Battey. (Walton substituting for Battey). This is our best defensive lineup as well.
Instead of slowing the game down, we needed to speed the game up to counter the pressing. We needed to put our fastest, most athletic players on the court, since we weren’t going to outrebound FSU anyway.
FSU is not a strong team, psychologically. They were broken by GTU. More than any other sport, Bball is psychological warfare. Given how easy it is to make a basket, the key to winning is to wear an opponent down and make them uncomfortable—in every possible way.
Tad’s teams have generally been psychologically weak as well. This team was the strongest, but still lacked the killer instinct to finish games. This needs to change, and this must be implemented top-down. This led to epic collapses, which cost this team a pac12 championship and a much better seed in the NCAA.
Adjustments
Tad’s comment at halftime that he wasn’t planning on any adjustments was damning. It was an admission that he had no idea how to win the game. When players are frustrated or are making bad decisions is the time for coaching. Wright sat on the bench a long time, but apparently, no coach talked to him about the necessity to hit jump shots instead of driving to reach the rim against a collapsing defense. Kin has the best mid range game of any player in CU history. He has the most reliable set of floaters I’ve seen in any college player. He could have destroyed FSU’s defense—either because they kept doubling him or allowing him to penetrate past the 3pt line to get his jump shot.
Switching to zone for a possession or two is a good strategy that should be employed more often. But sticking to a poorly executed/implemented zone defense is silly. It's bewildering that Tad who abhors zone above all things--would make this mistake. The objective in bball is to prevent the opponent from getting comfortable. Once FSU knows what to expect and is comfortable in beating the zone, would be the time to switch back to man.
Recruiting
This early exit in the NCAA again demonstrates the flaw in a recruiting strategy that emphasizes length rather than skill. Daniels, Schwartz, Obrian follow a long list of pseudo guards who lack the speed and ball-handling in order beat a wide range of defenses. Tad needs to prioritize true point guards. (I think Parquet has the skill and athleticism to be an effective guard on both ends of the court, but he might need more encouragement and coaching).
Alternatively, if the team wasn't overloaded in this position, maybe one or two would get the playing time necessary to develop into highly effective players. For instance, I really like Daniels. He's a good shooter and a good decision maker, but he should have gotten more playing time, especially in place of Schwartz.
The reliance on 6-5 combo guards isn’t going to lead to deep runs in the tourney, or even sweet 16 appearances.
Kee is a tremendously talented player and he showed real maturity the last half of the season, and especially against FSU. He needs more help. (in the same way that Kee needed more help on the floor when he was doubled)
Next year, we will have the most talented set of forwards we’ve ever had. We must have another skilled point guard to help Parquet and Kee.
We need Tad to look objectively on this season and make a host of improvements. I'm cautiously optimistic.
ps.
Act like an adult and get your own damn sandwiches
- We finally started running an actual offense, rather than the 1vs1 or jungle ball that has been the mainstay of CU bball for the last 10 years.
- Tad implemented some basic game management wherein timeouts were called in order to stop opposing teams' hot streaks.
- After many turnovers and difficulties inbounding the ball, Tad started running basic inbound plays and limited turnovers.
- After difficulty facing full court press, the team practiced and did ok against FSU's press.
- Tad prevented long multi-game slumps.
- Except for one or two exceptions, the team was ready to play at tip-off. And play during the second half was almost always better.
- Most importantly, Tad properly took responsibility for the loss against FSU. He was outcoached, and it's critical for the program that he recognize that, so we can get better.
Personnel
Tad has a habit of favoring older players rather than the most talented. There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to this strategy over the course of a season or career. But March Madness is the time to put the players who-are-currently-playing-the-best on the floor. The way to evaluate players is not only who is accruing the most stats, but who is making the best decisions (fewest mistakes). Horne for instance has not been playing well. He’s been understandably frustrated after his shots have been not been falling (even when halfway down). And his frustration has led to poor shot selection, bad defense, and turnovers. Walker, on the other hand, has been playing very well. Yet Walker’s minutes were limited against FSU.
Schwartz is a streaky player. Both offensively and defensively. He turns the ball over a lot, through the wrong type of aggression—leading to charges and bad passes. Yet he starts most every game and gets major minutes compared to more efficient players such as Kee or Walker (or even Da Silva)
GamePlan
There’s a recipe to beat FSU. Georgia Tech demonstrated it. We have the personnel to beat FSU—we’re a more talented team than GTU.
The way to counter a full court press is through quick decision-making and rapid passing. Given the overplay, there will always be an open shot (especially from 3pt line) on the other end of the floor. We have the shooters to make FSU pay for their press.
FSU pursued an obvious strategy against CU. Full court press, double Kin, and push shooters off the 3pt line. This induces major weaknesses in their defense. 7 to 10ft jump shots will be wide open. We have the personnel to hit these reliably. Once five jump shots are made, either FSU continues this strategy or they change it up.
Given how hot Walker was against GT (and in the weeks before his injury), he should have started and played the whole game. Either he will serve as an effective decoy or he can exploit the FSU defense strategy. He is more athletic and better shooter than Walton—not to mention his ability to drive and cut.
FSU’s gameplan further exploited the weaknesses in Tad’s offensive strategy—lack of back cuts, movement, and downblock and cross screening for forwards.
Ironically, this is the one time in the year when the primitive weave concept would have actually worked well—yet was not employed. The commentators mentioned the fact that CU was failing to create any counter cyclical ball rotation.
This is the primary lineup we needed to beat FSU: Kin, Kee, Parquet, Walker, Battey. (Walton substituting for Battey). This is our best defensive lineup as well.
Instead of slowing the game down, we needed to speed the game up to counter the pressing. We needed to put our fastest, most athletic players on the court, since we weren’t going to outrebound FSU anyway.
FSU is not a strong team, psychologically. They were broken by GTU. More than any other sport, Bball is psychological warfare. Given how easy it is to make a basket, the key to winning is to wear an opponent down and make them uncomfortable—in every possible way.
Tad’s teams have generally been psychologically weak as well. This team was the strongest, but still lacked the killer instinct to finish games. This needs to change, and this must be implemented top-down. This led to epic collapses, which cost this team a pac12 championship and a much better seed in the NCAA.
Adjustments
Tad’s comment at halftime that he wasn’t planning on any adjustments was damning. It was an admission that he had no idea how to win the game. When players are frustrated or are making bad decisions is the time for coaching. Wright sat on the bench a long time, but apparently, no coach talked to him about the necessity to hit jump shots instead of driving to reach the rim against a collapsing defense. Kin has the best mid range game of any player in CU history. He has the most reliable set of floaters I’ve seen in any college player. He could have destroyed FSU’s defense—either because they kept doubling him or allowing him to penetrate past the 3pt line to get his jump shot.
Switching to zone for a possession or two is a good strategy that should be employed more often. But sticking to a poorly executed/implemented zone defense is silly. It's bewildering that Tad who abhors zone above all things--would make this mistake. The objective in bball is to prevent the opponent from getting comfortable. Once FSU knows what to expect and is comfortable in beating the zone, would be the time to switch back to man.
Recruiting
This early exit in the NCAA again demonstrates the flaw in a recruiting strategy that emphasizes length rather than skill. Daniels, Schwartz, Obrian follow a long list of pseudo guards who lack the speed and ball-handling in order beat a wide range of defenses. Tad needs to prioritize true point guards. (I think Parquet has the skill and athleticism to be an effective guard on both ends of the court, but he might need more encouragement and coaching).
Alternatively, if the team wasn't overloaded in this position, maybe one or two would get the playing time necessary to develop into highly effective players. For instance, I really like Daniels. He's a good shooter and a good decision maker, but he should have gotten more playing time, especially in place of Schwartz.
The reliance on 6-5 combo guards isn’t going to lead to deep runs in the tourney, or even sweet 16 appearances.
Kee is a tremendously talented player and he showed real maturity the last half of the season, and especially against FSU. He needs more help. (in the same way that Kee needed more help on the floor when he was doubled)
Next year, we will have the most talented set of forwards we’ve ever had. We must have another skilled point guard to help Parquet and Kee.
We need Tad to look objectively on this season and make a host of improvements. I'm cautiously optimistic.
ps.
Act like an adult and get your own damn sandwiches
Stopped reading after this:
We watched two different basketball seasons if you think Daniels should have played more than Schwartz
I really hope @oneanddone lives up to his name and never shows up again. This super genius really knows how to coach a top 20 basketball team.
FM-Buff
Well-Known Member
What the **** is this guy?
I hate to pile on here, but did you seriously suggest we try to out athlete a team with numerous NBA players on it - including a probable lottery pick?
I ranted about this to @Darth Snow today, but there are legit complaints about Tad. The problem is that the people who aren't fans of Tad never point out those complaints. They find really dumb ones that don't apply, thereby forcing others (and I include myself for falling into this trap) to dig into their own holes and focus on the black and white and ignore the greys.
Preach!
I often feel like I'm arguing down misguided criticism of Tad, so I rarely end up posting my own frustrations. I'm always afraid that if I do so it's going to embolden the "Fire Tad" crowd & we miss out on legit discussion.
fwiw, I think he evolved a lot as a coach this year. Between recruiting, team management and game management, I feel like he's better than he's ever been.
It is looking like Nate Tomlinson was a HUGE addition to this coaching staff. Going to miss him when he gets a gig elsewhere, but at the same time getting some HC experience would set him up for a pretty epic homecoming once Tad calls it quits.
Not sure if it's already been mentioned here, but one of the evolutions this year was plugging in a grad transfer.
I think it was the G'Town game where the announcer said they asked Tad why he finally added a grad transfer, and Tad's response was something to the effect of "We've always been bringing in players to build a multi year program, now we have the foundation of a program and we can recruit to build a team every year."
At a really coarse scale, it feels like Tad was building to that point before the glut of guys (Brown, Hopkins, Thomas, Peters) that just didn't work out, and the program took a step back.
Cynical me is afraid it will be a repeated cycle, but the strength of this recruiting class even before being able to recruit as a tourney team that finished ranked in the top 25 has me hopeful.
Also, we have a very different recruiting coordinator now than we had when we brought that class in. Tad learned a lot about recruiting in his first 10 years. Hopefully he's got it down now.
Think Tad has finally found the groove to recruit in. He will never get the players that have to be bought, but he seems to have figured out how to get the next tier. Hope he keeps it up.
I like what your selling, except Schwartz is far better than Daniels in many of your scenarios and also should have been pumping in some 10-12 foot shots
I can't believe we had somebody use "jungle ball" on here. Listen dickhead, we got straight up out athleted. They were just the better team that day and deserved to win. You going racial with it just shows what an ignorant jack ass you are.
Buffsbball
Well-Known Member
Florida State men's basketball coach Leonard Hamilton tops coaches earning sizable bonuses
Florida State men’s basketball coach Leonard Hamilton earned $875,000 thanks to one of the most lucrative incentive packages for public-school coach.
www.usatoday.com
Interesting article. 290,000 in bonuses this season for Tad. For somebody that is underpaid with their base salary he seems to have a solid bonus structure.
Congrats to Coach Boyle. Hope he gets every dollar of his potential bonus money!
Direct link - https://www.buffzone.com/2021/06/17...for-jr-payne-approved-by-cu-board-of-regents/
"
...
On Thursday, CU’s Board of Regents approved new terms for the latest version of Boyle’s perpetual five-year contract, which features an annual base and supplemental salary of $2.425 million. That marks a raise of $625,000 from the financial terms Boyle has worked under the past two years.
...
While Boyle’s base salary will actually drop from $350,000 to $300,000, he will see a significant increase in several of the supplemental salary categories. That includes “promotion and fundraising” (increasing from $375,000 to $625,000) and “sponsorship support” (increasing from $375,000 to $625,000), in addition to a new supplemental category of “community relations and outreach” that will pay $220,000 annually.
The structure and totals for Boyle’s incentive bonuses remains largely the same, although the bonuses for 15 regular season wins ($30,000) and 17 regular season wins ($20,000) have been eliminated. This past season, Boyle earned $290,000 in incentive bonuses, but that exact same performance next season would net $240,000, with the win-total incentives beginning at 19 regular season wins.
...
"
Direct link - https://www.buffzone.com/2021/06/17...for-jr-payne-approved-by-cu-board-of-regents/
"
...
On Thursday, CU’s Board of Regents approved new terms for the latest version of Boyle’s perpetual five-year contract, which features an annual base and supplemental salary of $2.425 million. That marks a raise of $625,000 from the financial terms Boyle has worked under the past two years.
...
While Boyle’s base salary will actually drop from $350,000 to $300,000, he will see a significant increase in several of the supplemental salary categories. That includes “promotion and fundraising” (increasing from $375,000 to $625,000) and “sponsorship support” (increasing from $375,000 to $625,000), in addition to a new supplemental category of “community relations and outreach” that will pay $220,000 annually.
The structure and totals for Boyle’s incentive bonuses remains largely the same, although the bonuses for 15 regular season wins ($30,000) and 17 regular season wins ($20,000) have been eliminated. This past season, Boyle earned $290,000 in incentive bonuses, but that exact same performance next season would net $240,000, with the win-total incentives beginning at 19 regular season wins.
...
"
I guess he deserves a year to prove himself.
He deserves every damn bit of it. He's built a program, how many thought that would actually happen? Plus, he's not done building it yet, on his way though.
What a brilliant strategy, have sponsors pitch in for his salary. I wasn't aware that was possible.
Tad Boyle cured cancer
