Discussion in 'University of Colorado Recruiting Archive' started by leftybuff, Aug 12, 2014.
On the bright side, the mustache grooming standards make the pre-marital sex policy virtually inevitable.
Sounds petty but these rules aren't exactly a secret to the athletes there. Student athletes know that expectations are going to be different before they ever get there.
I give credit to BYU for being consistent in enforcing their rules. They seem to apply the rules evenly to every one, regular student or star athlete.
In before nik says something about how rules that infringe on personal liberty shouldn't be allowed.
Even McMahon had to adjust himself a huge amount when he was on campus and involved with the team.
He has since stated that when he was off-campus and out of the view of the coaches and school officials he still did pretty much what he wanted to do but I'm sure that is still the case for a lot of their students, athletes or not, now.
These are still college aged kids and they are going to push the rules, that is part of what happens at that age. I am also sure that there are plenty of cases that an argument could be made that "justice" wasn't adminstered exactly fairly, again just like any other college campus.
My impression is though that BYU more than most is willing to enforce their rules more evenly than the huge majority of schools do.
See old deadspin article:
Why would he transfer to BYU? It's not a fit for everyone and doesn't pretend to be.
Kudos to BYU for abiding by its own code.
What rules don't in fact infringe on personal liberty? Infringing on liberty is pretty much what every rule does, mostly so people don't do dumbass **** to other people.
Why any non-LDS goes there is beyond me.
Is this the guy who supposedly wanted to commit to CU, but his grandmother made him sign the LOI for Oregon?
That was Diante Jackson, pretty sure he flunked out of Oregon.
Not to open this can of worms (okay fine, let's go there), but being non-LDS and black probably doesn't afford him the leniency it would others there.
If you're an athlete at BYU you better be very careful off campus. I can imagine Utah fan living to catch them in the act of breaking a rule and anonymously emailing the AD. All day long.
That seems to be the basis of the problem deadspin outlined: white, LDS students (athletes and non-athletes) can use their life-long connections to the church hierarchy to access an alternative judicial code (one with greater leniency and opportunity to "repent" and get a 2nd, 3rd or 4th chance) that is not available to the non-LDS students (who just happen to be disproportionately minority scholarship athletes).
I would even point to the very low-lying fruit that much of the BYU leadership is old, white, and quite literally grew up in a church that was overtly racist. The man for whom the university is named described black people as cursed with dark skin as punishment for Cain’s murder of his brother.
A debate is currently raging at Ole Miss that is part of their coming to terms with their racist past; meanwhile BYU whitewashes its own history and pretends that the very, very uneven punishments for honor code violations* handed out to minorities could never be evidence of a racial problem. At least Ole Miss is working on it.
*between 1993 and 2011, 80% of the athletes dismissed, suspended, put on probation or forced to withdraw as a result of honor code violations were minorities, and 60% were black men (around 23% of BYU athletes are minorities - and black students are a grand 0.6% of the school's population).
BYU gets no respect at all from me for "sticking to their guns" and "not caring if it's a star athlete." Just like Dr. Tom, they've got much of the sports world believing that they somehow do it cleaner and more ethically than everyone else. At least we admit to our **** ups and checkered past.
I don't know if anyone has actually done a statistically based study of who gets disciplined and how much at BYU. I would not have any trouble seeing black athletes having a much higher rate of discipline than white athletes. A majority of the black athletes are not LDS, a much higher percentage of the white athletes are members. Those who have grown up in the church and accept the teachings enough to want to go to BYU have likely grown up in households where the expectations of the church were a part of daily life from infancy.
For non-members, especially those coming from poorer or less structured backgrounds sticking to the rules is probably much more difficult. it is one thing to say, "Yes for the sake of a scholarship, a chance to play on a fairly high profile team, and get a free education, I can deal with those rules for a few years." It's another thing to actually do it when they talk with their friends at other schools who are talking about partying and girls and flashing the latest styles.
The rules are always way easier to follow when you understand and believe in the reasoning behind them instead of are simply complying to get something else you want.
That said there are also white athletes who get punished. Most likely we don't pay as much attention because they are lower profile and people do pay more attention to blacks at a place like BYU.
The two links above relate to white players, who were also key starters at the time, being given similar treatment.
I'm definitely not LDS and would not choose to go to BYU because I would not be willing to subject myself to some of their rules but I do respect them for sticking to what they believe even when it may be uncomfortable for them.
The only group that could actually do a true statistical study would be the school itself (privacy rules), and if you believe they would ever do that, I've got a bridge to sell. The co-author that looked at the history of athlete punishment does have a PhD, so he's got some training in rigorous research. Of course, he was a professor that was dismissed from BYU for publishing a book they didn't like*, so he may also have an axe to grind :wink2:. One of the points he made is that when white athletes are punished it is often because their violations are so publically egregious that they can't be overlooked.
Also, just clicked through your links, and I think there is a disconnect in terms. My reference to "suspensions" was being suspended from school - not being suspended from playing football. One of these punishments is much more severe than the other, with a much bigger impact on the student's life; it's those punishments that are more frequently handed out to minorities.
*I think the P12 could get over the no Sunday scheduling (hell, that's an accommodation to and respect of diversity that is right up a liberal institution's alley), but academic freedom is the real reason the P12 presidents would never allow them in.
I understand what you are saying. As I looked at my websearch for the two linked articles I did run across some articles regarding black students suspended from school, not just from athletics.
These same students appeared in a couple of cases to have offenses that would have gotten them suspended from CU or most other schools as well. Things like felony assault, statutory rape (a case of having sex with a 14 year old, both black and white players dismissed from the school for being associated with the case,) as well as the most famous case of the starting center of the BB team being suspended for extra marital sex right in the middle of the NCAA tourney run.
In that case he was able (despite being black) to take advantage of that same church "court" system you described earlier and was back in school the following semester.
There is no question that the rates of suspensions for black athletes are higher than white athletes. I just think that that is a logical expectation since a much higher percentage of the white athletes are better prepared and much more bought into the conduct code that results in the disciplinary actions.
I do also agree with you 100% that BYU would have a virtually impossible time getting into the PAC. The current PAC schools are way to the left of BYU in terms of beliefs and culture. Agree or disagree a school that is completely linked to a church that is openly and actively opposed to gay marriage and gay rights, to abortion, to certain women's rights in the home and workplace, that has the no so distant history of clear and open discrimination against persons of color is going to have a hard time finding supporters in the room when the PAC presidents meet.
Add as you mentioned the restrictions on academic freedom and the fact that BYU is far behind the current PAC members as a research institution and it is very hard to see BYU as a fit in the conference.
I see the PAC as having a hard time admitting any religious affiliated school. Baylor wasn't getting in. SMU, TCU, etc can forget about getting an invite.
Respect for some of what BYU does and wanting them in the PAC are two very different things and something I don't think we will ever have to worry about.
BYU has laudable ideals, but very human people go there. Having known several athletes who have played at BYU, as well as professors who have been pushed to improve grades for the undeserving star, I can say that my personal experience suggests that what goes on at every sports program in the country goes on to an equal or lesser extent at BYU. Davies, the BBall player, got suspended not for having sex per se, but because his sexual partner, a BYU women's volleyball player, couldn't deny recent sexual activity due to an increasing abdominal girth. She named the dad just before the NCAA tournament. Many athletes strictly obey the basic tenets of the BYU honor code, just like many athletes who are LDS I know at Utah and Utah State, and a recent NFL draftee from UCLA. What fans the flames of the 'Holy War' between Utah and BYU is that BYU fans really believe that all their athletes and their programs are pristine and that Utah is somehow tainted, and Utah fans are smart enough to know that it is far from the truth and love to call them on it. Broncho has turned off several LDS high school athletes I know who were impressed by the program until he talked, and found his piety condescending and offensive. Some I'm sure are impressed by him, but certainly not all. As for the PAC 12: BYU would love an invite, but it is a poor match culturally, brings little financially, imposes restrictions for Sunday play and is an undergraduate university. The only advantage I can see is that they truly are a fun team to beat.
I don't see how BYU being in the PAC 12 would bring little financially
If it was only an athletic affiliation focused solely on what made the conference the most money, BYU would become part of the Pac-12.
It's other stuff that gets in the way. Sunday scheduling impacts things, but the blackballing is mostly in regard to academic freedom issues.
BYU and it's lack of conference affiliation is a frequent 'discussion' that fills Utah's 2 major papers with bantering between UTAH and BYU fans ad nauseum (sometimes 300-400 comments per article). Here's the short version in regards to the finances.
In the PAC 12, BYU does not add any new markets for television, which drives the finances. It would diminish distributions though as BYU took its cut. All areas with a concentration of LDS audiences are currently covered in the PAC 12, except for several thousand in the Washington DC market.
Also, BYU historically acts much like Texas in regards to controlling its own cable channel. The channel plays LDS Church content, as well as replays and replays BYU athletic events. BYU has purportedly not wanted to give up those dollars in preliminary talks with then BCS conferences. Now, with the BCS turning into the P5, BYU may willingly give up some of its financial conduit to the tune of a couple of million dollars. Still, BYU joining the PAC 12 would dilute distributions without expanding into new TV markets. I really don't see how BYU adds much value financially versus adding Texas or OK schools.
Beyond what has also been discussed, competitiveness is also an issue. It is unlikely that BYU could improve it's recruiting much due to the very lifestyle restrictions being discussed. It has won, but never with a decent RPI. And lately, BYU is Utah's little brother. BYU has a losing record against Utah over the last 15 years, with about the same level of competitiveness as CSU against CU. Utah is fielding some of the best teams that it has ever produced talent wise, and yet it still can't win consistently in the PAC 12.
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