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Football Rebuilds

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by buffaholic, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Recent examples of successful rebuilds in this thread. Would like to keep it factual and see what the facts say.

    I will start with Larry Fedora at North Carolina (Simply because I looked it up this morning after reading the ESPN article).

    Before he got there, UNC (conference records):
    Butch Davis (2007-2010): 3-5, 4-4, 4-4, 4-4
    Everett Withers (2011): 3-5
    Larry Fedora (2012-2015): 5-3, 4-4, 4-4, 8-0.

    Recruiting Rank per Rivals public database:
    Butch Davis (2007-2010): 17, 32, 9, 29
    Everett Withers (2011): 16
    Larry Fedora (2012-2015): 44, 42, 23, 28

    Staff: Changed DC's after year 3, hiring Gene Chizik and firing Koenning. Fedora is an offensive-side guy.
    In putting together his staff he brought a couple key guys with him from S.Miss, added a couple from previous stops, and outright hired some guys he hadn't worked with.

    Opinion: Program was not a dumpster-fire, but has shown a 4th year big jump. Years 1-3 were meh. In fact, was on the hotseat in the offseason. He did recruit well after his 2nd full season, boosting them to #23 in rankings. He also likely has some 5th year seniors from that 2011 class who are contributing. Would guess that the #44 and #42 classes were actually better than that, with some under rated guys he knew about while recruiting for Southern Miss.
     
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  2. NW Buff

    NW Buff Club Member Club Member

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    Unless you can show me a coach who completes a rebuild while consistently bringing in one of the bottom three classes in the conference, I don't see how this is relevant to our situation.
     
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  3. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Who's trying to make that point? Nobody.

    In fact, this example shows the opposite. Guess you didn't read it?
     
  4. NW Buff

    NW Buff Club Member Club Member

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    I did read it and I figured (wrongly it appears) that you were trying to draw some connection to the current situation at CU.

    It'll be interesting to see what other cases there are.
     
  5. TSchekler

    TSchekler Darth's Hero Club Member

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    Until Kansas has a successfully completed rebuild, I don't know if there are any P5 rebuild situations that parallel CU's.
     
  6. Buffnik

    Buffnik Real name isn't Nik Club Member Junta Member

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    I think the most similar is Syracuse. Similar histories. Similar situation on in-state recruiting. Similar recent issues tied to program neglect. Similar recent conference change. The main difference is that CU has upgraded facilities while Syracuse continues to let the Carrier Dome linger. Syracuse did open a new IPF last year, but it's not at the level of what CU has done.
     
  7. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    I think the Syracuse Doug Marrone years were somewhat on track. Then they slipped back again.

    Greg Robinson 2005-2008: 0-7, 1-6, 1-6, 1-6
    Doug Marrone - 2009-2012: 1-6, 4-3, 1-6, 5-2 (two bowl wins in 4 years)
    Scott Shafer 2013-2015: 4-4, 1-7, 2-6

    Recruiting Rank per Rivals public database:
    Greg Robinson (2005-2008): 56, 52, 48, 48
    Doug Marrone (2009-2012): 118, 78, 76, 66
    Scott Shafer (2013-2015): 74, 51, 60
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  8. J.R. Ewing

    J.R. Ewing Club Member Club Member

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    I think UNC is a good example of what a good football team with a great DT QB can do in a crap division.
     
  9. GoBuffs08

    GoBuffs08 Well-Known Member

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    FIFY
     
  10. skibum

    skibum Peed in your Cheerios. Club Member

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    Duke
    under Roof:
    Year, Record (Conference), Rivals Recruiting Ranking
    2003, 4-8 (2-6), 110
    2004, 2-9 (1-7), 117
    2005, 1-10 (0-8), 46
    2006, 0-12 (0-8), 56
    2007, 1-11 (0-8), 79
    under Cutcliffe:
    2008, 4-8 (1-7), 65
    2009, 5-7 (3-5), 51
    2010, 3-9 (1-7), 72
    2011, 3-9 (1-7), 72
    2012, 6-7 (3-5), 52
    2013, 10-4 (6-2), 68

    I tried to figure out conference recruiting rankings for Duke, but the ACC has changed so much (and I don't just know it like the old Big-12 (see below)) that it wasn't easy to figure out, and rivals database gives rankings based on today's conference allignments, which isn't really pertinent to how Duke recruited in 2005.

    Kansas State
    under Allen (I can't find recruiting rankings prior to 2002, so we don't know):
    1997, 5-6 (3-5)
    1998, 4-7 (1-7)
    1999, 5-7 (3-5)
    2000, 4-7 (2-6)
    2001, 3-8 (1-7)
    under Mangino:
    2002, 2-10 (0-8), 58 (11)
    2003, 6-7 (3-5), 39 (7)
    2004, 4-7 (2-6), 96 (11)
    2005, 7-5 (3-5), 48 (10)
    2006, 6-6 (3-5), 38 (7)
    2007, 12-1 (7-1), 50 (8)
     
  11. NW Buff

    NW Buff Club Member Club Member

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    Does Stanford count? They were pretty bad between Willingham and Harbaugh.
     
  12. LongHaulBuff

    LongHaulBuff Club Member Club Member

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    Mangino was never at K-State
     
  13. skibum

    skibum Peed in your Cheerios. Club Member

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    I think so. I'm too lazy to go back to the computer and put together the numbers for the trees though.
     
  14. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Harbaugh at Stanford:
    Before he got there, Trees were (conference records):
    Teevans (2002-2004): 1-7, 2-6, 2-6
    Harris (2005-2006): 4-4, 2-8
    Harbaugh (2007-2010): 3-6, 4-5, 6-3, 8-1

    Recruiting Rank per Rivals public database:
    Teevans (2002-2004): 54, 25, 149
    Harris (2005-2006): 41, 54
    Harbaugh (2007-2010): 51, 50, 20, 26

    Opinions: Harbaugh did not start out as some great recruiter (as measured by rankings). Not until he went 6-3 in conference did he actually surpass the guys before him. However, that #50 class had a guy named Andrew Luck and those first two classes had some players who'd do pretty well there under that staff, forming the backbone of his 2010 run.
     
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  15. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Mike Leach at WSU:
    Before he got there, Cougs were (conference records):
    Paul Wulff era: 1-8, 0-9, 1-8, 2-7
    Mike Leach (2012-2015): 1-8, 4-5, 2-7, 6-3

    Recruiting Rank per Rivals public database:
    Mike Leach (2012-2015): 56, 53, 79, 55
     
  16. fatbuff

    fatbuff Well-Known Member

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    He was an assistant there before becoming OC for OU.
     
  17. ahoelsken

    ahoelsken Well-Known Member

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    Is the recruiting really the big issue? Look at the number of close calls in conference play-USC, UCLA, Arizona, Oregon, Utah this year. Oregon State, Cal, UCLA last year. Are we sure it isn't more this staff just sucks at coaching basic situational football?
     
  18. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Sarkisian at UW:

    year / conference records / Rivals recruiting rankings:

    2005 Willingham 1-7, 67
    2006 Willingham 3-6, 35
    2007 Willingham 2-7, 36
    2008 Willingham 0-9, 24
    2009 Sarkisian 4-5, 68
    2010 Sarkisian 5-4, 28
    2011 Sarkisian 5-4, 23
    2012 Sarkisian 5-4, 21
    2013 Sarkisian 5-4, 18
     
  19. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I feel like Holic will get to the ****ing point sometime this year. We already know what that point will be.
     
  20. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Keep sniping Duff (you always do, but you never counter the point do you?). Let's let the point be arrived at together here with the facts perhaps? What is it that turns these programs around?

    Who else has some suggestions of coach's who've turned a program around? Focusing on the down trodden.
     
  21. SINKRATZ

    SINKRATZ Club Member Club Member

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    Yes, it really is a big issue.
     
  22. DBT

    DBT Club Member Club Member

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    If anyone is sure of anything, please speak up.
     
  23. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I "snipe" because your argument is to just ignore recruiting completely until some magical time when suddenly it will be allowable to actually judge a coaching staff on recruiting. Most reasonable Buffs fans would say the time for discernable improvement on the recruiting trail should come in the 2017 class, not only due to the size of the class, but also due to brand new facilities nearing their completion. How is this, in any way, unreasonable? It is the FOURTH full class this coaching staff will be recruiting for and essentially all the non self-inflicted barriers are removed. So why are you now purposely and artificially lowering recruiting expectations? I seriously would like to know because it seems you are fine with the coaches signing any random assortment of players every February.
     
  24. buffaholic

    buffaholic Club Member Club Member

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    Easily 75% of posters on here are saying the main cause for our lack of success so far is recruiting. So 75% of the posters here are unreasoanble according to you?

    Every single time it's been a turnaround using under-rated, ballers. The kind that Jim Leavitt evidently found with what Kent Bahr left behind.

    Why don't you provide some examples of why I'm wrong?
     
  25. SINKRATZ

    SINKRATZ Club Member Club Member

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    There are plenty of examples of turnarounds on the backs of average or mediocre recruiting classes. There are zero examples of turnarounds on the backs of worst in the conference recruiting classes.

    I'm not sure anyone is arguing that we need to be recruiting lights out in order to improve, only it has to be better than it is now. You just seem to be a lot more satisfied with the current state of recruiting than most - that's where we disagree.
     
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  26. Duff Man

    Duff Man Moderator Club Member Junta Member

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    I have no issue saying the coaching staff needs to have past recruiting classes play above their rankings to turn the program around.

    No idea what that has to do with repeatedly lowering recruiting expectations going forward though.
     
  27. BuffaloB

    BuffaloB New Member

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    So based on all factors, where do you think CU should be ranking with recruiting? What would be acceptable recruiting?
     
  28. TSchekler

    TSchekler Darth's Hero Club Member

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    The 2017 class is definitely going to be the "make or break" class for CU. The additions of Tumpkin and Leavitt have seemingly paid solid dividends with the likes of Watts, Julmisse, Huntley, and Blackmon down in Florida for the '16 cycle. I'm looking forward to seeing the if those two can continue that momentum in FL, with a large class.
     
  29. SBG

    SBG Formerly known as EFNMB Club Member Junta Member

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    Is this an opinion or did you look this up on Wikipedia?
     
  30. fatbuff

    fatbuff Well-Known Member

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    I would say it is more fact than opinion. Am I wrong?
     

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