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What kind of school is Utah?

Discussion in 'Colorado Football Message Board' started by Timbuff10, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. Timbuff10

    Timbuff10 Member

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    Forget athletics, I know they have a pretty good football team as of recent, but what about academics, research, prestige, rankings in that they could brag about.

    I know they are about the size of CU in terms of student body and I am guessing they are probably loaded with mormons and people who happen to live in Utah that can't stand mormons and BYU.

    I am just hoping against hope that Utah is the 12 and final school since they are about the only ones in the PAC region that seems to fit as I just think all this Texas stuff is too farfetched and will be a disaster in the long run that can ruin the PAC especially since their only reason for being there is $$.

    Are they a good fit for the PAC?
     
  2. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    I actually think our Wikipedia page lays it out pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Utah

    Check out the "Academics" and "Notable Programs" sections specifically to answer your questions. I'd paste it in here, but I know various board admins have been cracking down on that lately.

    Congrats on the PAC invite. To say I'm jealous would be putting it mildly. Wish we were there.

    Go Utes!
     
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  3. JimmyBuff

    JimmyBuff Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I'd like you guys to join us fountofUte. Be nice to have a close neighbor but I have a feeling that if aggy doesn't come, Kansas might be coming. We'll see how it shakes out.
     
  4. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    Thanks Jimmy. Not sure what to think of KU. Some on our board (utefans.net) are pretty freaked out about that. Others are totally brushing it off. I have no idea where to stand on it.

    We were debating a little about how much say we think Scott will give you guys to "pick" who you want your rival/travel partner to be. Of course, we were all just pulling opinions out of our ass. I'd be curious what you guys want if you could decide.
     
  5. JimmyBuff

    JimmyBuff Well-Known Member

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    I was kind of stunned about Boise joining today. At first thought I figured that the MWC made the move because Utah is leaving. I don't know why the MWC would want to add some many teams because I thought part of the reason why it was created was to get out of the WAC 16.

    Quick question: Are there fractions in your state that want BYU and UTAH to stay together or is that not a concern?
     
  6. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    Not really a concern. Actually, there's a full range of opinion on it. I'm in the camp of those who would rather be together in a conference with BYU, ideally, but I want to be in the PAC much more. I'm very willing to leave them behind for the PAC. There are other Ute fans who think if we never play BYU again and never hear their name again, it will be too soon.
     
  7. JimmyBuff

    JimmyBuff Well-Known Member

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    haha, I can understand that. If no pac 16 (or Pac 12) for you guys I guess you'll at least have a BCS conference now with the Big 12 crumbling. But I can understand you wanting to get out since many of the teams are minor league outfits.

    Boise State is a nice get for the conference though.
     
  8. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    I hate to be too doomsday, but we could be in deep trouble if this doesn't work out with the PAC. The ark is closing and the water is rising fast.

    BSU was a nice pickup (albeit a year or two too late, IMO). If it ends up that the train leaves the station, I guess we start again with BSU, BYU, and TCU and see who we can get from there. I hate thinking about it. Basically, it's the beginning of the end. It's hard enough to compete with good BCS programs today stretching our dimes against BCS stacks of bills. Hack off another limb, and I'm afraid that's too much to overcome in the long run.
     
  9. JimmyBuff

    JimmyBuff Well-Known Member

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    yeah I understand, if it goes to Pac 16 with the Big 12 South I think it will tough for any more members to ever join.


    I'm not a huge fan of all this Super 16 conferences, but times seem to be changing. I still think the best scenario for us would be the Big 12 deciding to stick together and you guys join us in the Pac 12. We are really behind in the facilities race and okie state, ou, aggy and definitely ut are such huge football factories that it will be tough for us to compete. As currently constructed we wouldn't do sh*t in the new Pac 12 league either but I think with a new coach, the more alumni on the west coast (more donation possibilities) and just a breath of fresh air in the department we might be able to turn it around and get our program up to quality standards. The Pac 10 brings us a new life and another chance to not screw up like we did when the Big 12 formed (we didn't do much in terms of facilities upgrades so we got left behind from the teams from the South and even the North (kansas and missouri)) With the rest of South possibly coming over though its going to be a much further climb up. Not saying its impossible but things need to change in a hurry and it might get even uglier (gosh is that possible?) before it gets better. I'm hopeful that's not the case though.


    I wish you guys well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  10. Timbuff10

    Timbuff10 Member

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    I really think Utah is most deserving of the next Pac invite. If it is 16 or 12 in the end Utah needs to be in this conference. If for nothing else it makes it work really well in a 16 team/4 pod system as CU and the AZ schools can be paired with Utah that should spawn some great rivalries, while all the other pods maintain great rivalries too.

    The problem with going to more than 11, and it becomes a huge problem when you go more than 12 is that you may not play the schools in other divisions for several years. I think if we went to 16, UT would play in Seattle once every 8 years. To me, this makes it stupid to bring that many teams in and I am hoping the PAC is weighing this before voting to be a watered down conference. When every school in the conference needs to vote yes to bring in a school, i just dont think that is enticing enough even with all the TV money.
     
  11. Timbuff10

    Timbuff10 Member

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    Thanks!
     
  12. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    First of all, thanks for coming over with an honest discussion. I'm all over the place on your question as to who should be CU's natural pair in the expanded Pac10. When it comes to rivals, CU is the consumate bachelor. We have rivals we like to screw with, but the school has never settled down into any serious longterm rivalry relationship. Due to CU's relative geographical isolalation, conference allignments, and heavy bias towards bringing kids in from out of state, the opinions of our fanbase is all over the place.

    Here's my rundown of schools and context.

    CSU: Little Bro. The state ag school has a hated rivalry thrust upon us in the 1990's. Some bad blood exists between the Colorado natives. CU and Boulder costs more with it's pricey real estate, mountain setting, and proximity to both Denver and ski areas. CU has wealthier students, due to the 45% of freshmen paying OOS tuition. CU's higher instate admission requirements also drive a wedge. "Friends don't let friends go to CSU". CSU is the safety school for when every other college turns you down. The rivalry comes out in the football stadium during the Rocky Mountain Shootout at invesco, where as many as 70K fans come out. But CSU's interest in football diminishes quickly from there. CU fans are generally of the opinion that CSU brings little in terms of major media markets, and even less in terms of football enthusiasm beyond the RMS. Plus with a 10 year contract for CU-CSU in place, the rivalry is already structurally in place.

    AFA - Less than 90 miles apart, with the bulk of the Colorado population inbetween, AFA would be a natural geographical rival. The service academy brings a national audience with their tie-in with that branch of the armed forces. But the Vietnam War caused a bitter showdown between cadets and CU fans. Boulder's anti-war hippies were spitting on and otherwise abusing the cadets and their fans, and these anti-war demonstrations got uglier from there. Things got too hot, and administrators put a restraining order which exists today. It's possible that the hyper conservative Colo Springs and the deeply liberal Boulder communities would not mesh in a good way. And AFA treasures their competion with the other service academies, none of which are BCS material. The acadmic research and service academy tradion does not fit the Pac10 model.

    Kansas: Although there is a long history in the same conference, the KU-CU sports relationship is a tale of two sports. CU can't touch KU in basketball. And aside from the past decade, CU has been the better football program. Lawrence is a nice enough town, but heading east on I70 across the 500+ miles prairie is daunting enough that it appeals to only the hard core football fans. KU has always looked to Mizzou and KSU as their primary rivals that might be hard to replicate a Pac bid. KU is an AAU member and could deliver the Kansas City media market. A KU rivalry with CU would seem forced, but would atleast feel familiar.

    Utah - There is some ancient history between the schools, but no modern fan remembers that. Utah got the attention of the academic world with that cold-fusion discovery, that no one can replicate. But those memories were erased following the SLC olympics. UU got some facilities upgrades and caught fire with Meyer and have maintained that momentum with Whittingham. CU fans were excited by UU's victory in the sugar bowl a few years back. But SLC is Terra incognito for many Coloradoans. Outdoor enthusiasts love Moab, we drive through Utah on the way to Vegas and SoCal. Utah feels close because the scenery is familiar. But SLC is more than a day trip, and therefore won't be well attended relative to the other rivalries. The perception of Mormon culture boardering on misogyny sends up red flags among the liberals. Who knows how much of that is real or fiction. But regardless of the cultural biases, UU is better than anybody from Texas.
     
  13. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the reply...

    You had to bring up cold fusion. Fair enough. :D

    Here's our take that I can gather from Ute fans...

    BYU is our rival. They haven't always been (it used to be Utah State for much of our history), but with the rise of BYU football in the Lavell Edwards era ('70s, '80s, '90s), things quickly escalated. Utah and BYU are only 40 miles apart, and both reside in the "Wasatch Front" which is the SLC metro area. BYU is in Utah county and UofU is in Salt Lake county. I'll try not to bore you with details, but the two counties are very different. I know you won't believe me, but SL county is actually pretty liberal politically, socially, etc. I mean that all relatively. It's not San Fran, to be sure. The Mormon church headquarters are in downtown SLC, so that balances things out a little. SL county is about 50% Mormon, maybe less. Salt Lake City proper is definitely lower, maybe 30% Mormon.

    But Utah county, where Provo and BYU are, is much more Mormon. Utah county is what I think most people picture when they think of a community populated with a Mormon majority; (by that, I don't mean people riding around in horse and buggy - haha!). Utah county is probably 70%+ LDS (Latter-Day Saint - the proper name for Mormons).

    The reason I'm explaining all this, is that there is a definite cultural divide between Utah and BYU. Now that Utah has crawled out of our suckiness in football in the 70s and 80s, the football rivalry has been tight. We've split the games for the last 20 years. The rivalry has always been fierce (our first game in the 1800s ended in a bench-clearing brawl) it really has ramped up according to some fans. (I personally think the rivalry is as brutal as it's always been.)

    Long story short, there are fans on both sides of the rivalry who think it's become too toxic. They're afraid if it escalates anymore someone might get hurt. Some Utah fans (both LDS and not) are simply tired of the 'culture' that comes out of BYU, and they just want to be done with it. Some Ute fans have been begging for this PAC move to happen so we can have a different, "normal" rival shed of all the BYU baggage (and this is coming from a Mormon). They're sure UofU and CU will find reasons to hate each other, but it won't be (as) religious and petty as the "Holy War" has become here. Just two great schools who want to beat the hell out of each other on the gridiron and hardwood.

    Again, good luck in the PAC. Screw A&M and KU. Eff those guys. We're better than them, and I hope it's us! We deserve it! We work hard for everything we get, and we ain't planning to rest on laurels should the PAC come calling. We don't feel the entitlement that KU and A&M simply because of the name on our shirt or what we accomplished 50 years ago, or last year. We've learned that that thinking gets you nowhere but apathy and spoiled mediocrity (see Notre Dame).

    Tell your connected CU friends to lobby for Utah.
     
  14. Highlander27

    Highlander27 Well-Known Member

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    Great break-down. I hope a&m goes SEC to ensure we get either KU or Utah. With your KU post, it really helps me understand why there rumors of them joining in. AAU holds lots of weight it seems with the Pac 10. A star-studded basketball program won't hurt either.
     
  15. buffedup

    buffedup Cooler than a Popsicle Stand. Club Member

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    FountofUte, I'm really pulling for you guys if aTm goes elsewhere. Geographically, it just makes so much sense. We could start a real Rocky Mountain Showdown and have a natural podmate. I don't really have anything against KU, but I just like the Utah idea better.
     
  16. UrbanaBuff

    UrbanaBuff Member

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    While I admire the Utes and definitely want them to go to the Pac with us, if you are asking about them as a school, well, they are more on par with CSU than us. Ranked in the 120s of USN&WR. However, that's ahead of ASU, OSU, WSU... as well as many of our former Big XII brethren (OSU, KjSU, TT).
     
  17. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    Can't argue that. This is accurate, Urban. We're no Harvard, but we're no slouch.

    Isn't that most of us? We do put emphasis on improving and excelling in academics. Being in the PAC would be a boon in this category.
     
  18. Clean Undies

    Clean Undies Flagship of the 12-Pac Club Member

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    One more thought to add to this docket.

    Salt Lake City is not an NFL town. If you love being at a tailgate, or in the bleechers, then there is no substitute for the college game.

    Kansas competes with the Chiefs for sports entertainment.

    The AFA and CSU are in Broncos territory.

    I haven't seen the lack of an NFL team in Utah being mentioned as a real selling point.
    I have a hunch the UU fan appeal extends beyond the alumni, spilling over into the Joe Sixpack demographic. When that happens, it's possible that UU is one of those schools that travel well. Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2010
  19. FountOfUte

    FountOfUte Member

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    This is true. The Salt Lake market is all about the Utes, BYU and the Jazz. People are obsessed with those three "teams." No local MLB or NFL competes for those eyeballs (hell, I wish they would). Those three teams are 12-months-a-year topics at the water cooler and sports talk radio. So yes, you get SL metro, you're getting a very loyal, attentive audience. Our football is college football.
     
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  20. buffwoman526

    buffwoman526 Club Member Club Member

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    Welcome rep to FountOfUte. I hope we become rivals in the near future.
     

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